Shovel to Pan

[hbkeith]

Friend has a 66FLH , basicly stock , been sitting long time , the Engine needs LOTs of topend work , thinking on turning it to a Panhead , never plans to ever sell it , What all of the 66 parts would work in the swap . Topend oil system on late Pan and early shovel were same wernt they ?

[JW113]

Close enough to adapt no problem. Was quite common to switch the other way back in the day.

Question: why does he want to give away 10HP? Sake of style or something?

-JW

[hbkeith]

Close enough to adapt no problem. Was quite common to switch the other way back in the day.

Question: why does he want to give away 10HP? Sake of style or something?

-JW

it was basic beer drinking talk , what if kind of thing , also when I said bike is stock , I don't mean all original , its in stock form ( not chopped ) but is a complete rat bike . and he has some Pan parts laying around

[dirtymike]

I'd do some more beer drinking around that 66 for a few more sessions to the point that all them pan head parts are on it .Dirty.

[Ohio HD]

What year Pan Heads? Some are internal oiling to the heads.

[JW113]

Well OK then!!



-JW

[harley_cruiser]

Humm, looks like my post is gone,
I think it would be a cool swap, easy to do, especially on a rat/barn find type bar hopper bike.

[dirtymike]

shovelhead years are 1966-1984, correct me if i am in error. The 1966 pan-shovel had a shovelhead top end and a panhead bottom end. If it has a panhead top end its a real panhead. 1966 was the last year of the Panheadand the first year of the shovelhead. The top end oiling system on a panhead is through the pushrods i believe, I have worked on them in a limited number., maybe 3 or 4. Love to have one though. Dirty

[Breeze]

'65 was the last year Panhead, but 1st year "ElectraGlide".  1966-69 were Generators, commonly called Slabside, Flatside or  Panshovel, by those thinking Panheads were better. 1970 was first year of alternator in left case, and redesigned cam chest. Usually called "Coneshovels".  As noted, there were lots of small hard to remember changes in oiling and other systems. At one time I knew what the difference between the 7 or 9 fin cylinders were, or the 5 fin heads,and many others, but now it's just all mush in my head. 

[dirtymike]

"Mush" I feel your pain Breeze. When we going to see a pic of this machine. Dirty

[76shuvlinoff]

First year shovel. I'd probably keep it shovel..... I know, that's not what you asked, can't help myself.

  I have a truly bastardized bike that started as a 76 FLH shovel, I bastardized it.  No real attraction or value to anyone else but it was my first Harley and at this point I am thinking I should have left it alone.

[HotRodShovel]

Mark, I'm in the same boat. I don't know what demon got inside of me but I can't leave well enough alone.  I'm afraid to tally the $$ I have put into it.  I NEVER will recoup my investment so there is no way I would sell it. 
Plus its all mine.  The only other hands that touched that bike were Kirby's (pretty f*ck$ng competent hands at that, and a ton of advise) machine work on cases and heads.   
Finally with the S&S jugs its All-American.   So now.....whats with this putting Pan heads on a Shovel? Oh boy, someone stop me.

[Hossamania]

I say, if you can get the proper info, do it. It's just a set of heads for God's sake.

[Ohio HD]

and cylinders, and exhaust system.....   

[Hossamania]

He didn't say anything about cylinders, but he did say the top end was garbage, so who gives a "Potty mouth" if he puts Pan heads on a Shovel?
I knew a guy who turned a 1967 Ford station wagon into a two door. Why? Because he could, and so he could go into the parts store and order parts for a '67 Ford two door wagon, and watch them struggle to find it in their books.
I imagine hbkeith going to his parts guy and ordering parts for a '66 pan, and then proving he has one.

[Ohio HD]

He didn't say anything about cylinders, but he did say the top end was garbage, so who gives a "Potty mouth" if he puts Pan heads on a Shovel?
I knew a guy who turned a 1967 Ford station wagon into a two door. Why? Because he could, and so he could go into the parts store and order parts for a '67 Ford two door wagon, and watch them struggle to find it in their books.
I imagine hbkeith going to his parts guy and ordering parts for a '66 pan, and then proving he has one.

Pan cylinders are not the same as Shovel cylinders. Neither is the exhaust hook up to the heads from a Shovel bike. There's more to do than say "just throw heads on it". And there is no such thing as a '66 Pan to order parts for.

[Hossamania]

He didn't say anything about cylinders, but he did say the top end was garbage, so who gives a "Potty mouth" if he puts Pan heads on a Shovel?
I knew a guy who turned a 1967 Ford station wagon into a two door. Why? Because he could, and so he could go into the parts store and order parts for a '67 Ford two door wagon, and watch them struggle to find it in their books.
I imagine hbkeith going to his parts guy and ordering parts for a '66 pan, and then proving he has one.

And there is no such thing as a '66 Pan to order parts for.

And there in lies the fun of doing it.

[72fl]

shovelhead years are 1966-1984, correct me if i am in error. The 1966 pan-shovel had a shovelhead top end and a panhead bottom end. If it has a panhead top end its a real panhead. 1966 was the last year of the Panheadand the first year of the shovelhead. The top end oiling system on a panhead is through the pushrods i believe, I have worked on them in a limited number., maybe 3 or 4. Love to have one though. Dirty

And some 85 Shovels are out there......

[HotRodShovel]

Ohio, I get the exhaust but whats different about the cylinders?  I was always under the impression (obviously mistaken) that Shovel & Pan jugs were the same. 

[Ohio HD]

Pan Head Cylinders with the exception I think of '65 use internal oiling passages to the heads from the case. '65 I know had external oil lines like a Shovel plumbed to the heads, they were preparing for the change over in '65. That's why I say you need to know what Pan Head parts you have and what all must be changed to go backwards from a Shovel. I'm not even sure that the '66 case has oil passages to send oil to the heads by way of the cylinders.   

[HogMike]

Ohio, I get the exhaust but whats different about the cylinders?  I was always under the impression (obviously mistaken) that Shovel & Pan jugs were the same.

63-65 pan cylinders have no oil passage for the top end, they used outside oilers.
Earlier cylinders used oil feed passages (and return) in the cylinders.
STOCK 66 used outside oilers.
If you go with outside oiler pan heads AND same year cylinders, no problem .
Best bet would be to use 63-65 pan parts, barrels, heads, manifold carb, throttle assembly, top mounts,
There are carb adapters to use 66 and later, or aftermarket carbs.
Of course, there will probably be some small issues that can be fixed as the project continues
Anything can be done with enough time and patience.
Again, JMHO

[Ohio HD]

Ohio, I get the exhaust but whats different about the cylinders?  I was always under the impression (obviously mistaken) that Shovel & Pan jugs were the same.

63-65 pan cylinders have no oil passage for the top end, they used outside oilers.
Earlier cylinders used oil feed passages (and return) in the cylinders.
STOCK 66 used outside oilers.
If you go with outside oiler pan heads AND same year cylinders, no problem .
Best bet would be to use 63-65 pan parts, barrels, heads, manifold carb, throttle assembly, top mounts,
There are carb adapters to use 66 and later, or aftermarket carbs.
Of course, there will probably be some small issues that can be fixed as the project continues
Anything can be done with enough time and patience.
Again, JMHO

Agree, and I was unsure of how many years were external oiling heads. That also makes those heads less available as they're only in production a few years. Anything can be done with welding and machine work too. But now you get away from a simple swap as was contemplated.

[76shuvlinoff]

 I certainly won't argue against doing what you want. That's exactly how my 76 got to where it is.... which in truth is really nowhere. I had a good time doing it though. I built a shovelish bike to start, run, and stop reliably all day with evos. Well, now the evos are gone so what? Restoring it isn't worth the money either. I get it out a few times a summer, it makes me grin and confuses others.. that's all you can ask from a toy anyhow.

Back to this particular project, In keeping it shovel or making it a pan the guy should do what he wants, but from what I'm reading here neither direction is going to be all that cheap.   

[drinner-okc]

The quickest and probably least expensive way to do this is Replica Pan Heads.  Most of the 'Outside Oiler ' replicas have Shovel (cylinder) bolt patterns and Shovel intake & Exhaust Ports.
Even the last 65 real Pan heads are now 53 years old. In terrible shape they bring $1000 (a thousand bucks) bare.  Most have had the original seats replaced by some do-gooder over no-lead gas. Then there are the stripped pan cover screw holes, worn exhaust spigots, broken fins.
Me? I'm going the other direction, think generator lower end, EVO top end !

[kd]

Looking back at my previous post recommending staying with the 66 shovel parts, and listening to the OP's thoughts to just get this bike on the road, reminds me of the time I did something similar.  In the 70's I took a real nice 65 pan chassis (badly scattered engine) and replaced it with a '47 knuck engine and transmission. It turned out to be a real sweet ride and that's what it's all about. Used what was available on a low budget and made it happen.

I say take the info you have gathered, price out the options, and choose the one that works for you the best. Get it running and enjoy the  out of it.

[hbkeith]

He didn't say anything about cylinders, but he did say the top end was garbage, so who gives a "Potty mouth" if he puts Pan heads on a Shovel?
I knew a guy who turned a 1967 Ford station wagon into a two door. Why? Because he could, and so he could go into the parts store and order parts for a '67 Ford two door wagon, and watch them struggle to find it in their books.
I imagine hbkeith going to his parts guy and ordering parts for a '66 pan, and then proving he has one.

that's similar to how the talk all started , guy showed up with a guy we didn't know and the guy saw the 66 sitting in corner with no topend and asked if that was a 65Pan

[HotRodShovel]

It always starts out as a 'project' and seems to snowball into a 'job'.   I still think the Panhead idea is cool.  The aftermarket Panheads fitted for Shovel cylinders is probably the way to go. As stated, the OEM heads are slim and beat up. 

I know a guy up in Brooklyn who actually put Evo top end on a Flatside lower.  It was a real nice build and a very solid runner. 

[Ohio HD]

Axtell created the Shovelution back in the late 80's.


http://www.axtellsales.com/shovelution-cylinders/

[BKACHE]

With a few more beers - suggest one cyl a shovel and one a pan.
If unique is what you seek. I have only seen a couple like this.

[HotRodShovel]

yea, unique it will be but not for me, PanShoveloution.  Isn't that the beauty of it though? It doesn't really matter as long as you dig it.

[Johnnyshvlhd]

I ran a set of shovelheads on a 57 pan with my pan jugs, for a lot of years. Some one had made a new hole and plugged up the old one, so they worked on pan jugs. That was before we had the after market cylinders.

[Ohio HD]

I had a '52 Pan with Shovels on it, you just used the Shovel cylinders too. Then you run a hard oil line from the oil pump to the rocker box for oiling.

[Burnout]

You could spend a lot of money on a set of Pan heads and still not be as good as Shovelheads.

That same money spent on Shovelheads would put you way to the good.

The only thing the Shovel can use beyond stock is three bolt exhaust flanges for a rubber mount (a solid mount motor doesn't need them).

Dual plugging them can help some too (since the combustion chamber is so big).

[Ohio HD]

I ran across this, you may find it of interest.

https://goo.gl/qtwnVY

[david lee]

Well OK then!!



-JW

only 3 beers ?

[david lee]

First year shovel. I'd probably keep it shovel..... I know, that's not what you asked, can't help myself.

  I have a truly bastardized bike that started as a 76 FLH shovel, I bastardized it.  No real attraction or value to anyone else but it was my first Harley and at this point I am thinking I should have left it alone.

im shocked at any bastardized flh

[Hossamania]

First year shovel. I'd probably keep it shovel..... I know, that's not what you asked, can't help myself.

  I have a truly bastardized bike that started as a 76 FLH shovel, I bastardized it.  No real attraction or value to anyone else but it was my first Harley and at this point I am thinking I should have left it alone.

im shocked at any bastardized flh

You'll probably find more of those than not.

[hbkeith]

First year shovel. I'd probably keep it shovel..... I know, that's not what you asked, can't help myself.

  I have a truly bastardized bike that started as a 76 FLH shovel, I bastardized it.  No real attraction or value to anyone else but it was my first Harley and at this point I am thinking I should have left it alone.

im shocked at any bastardized flh

may not be a FLH , but that Trike sure aint stock

[david lee]

First year shovel. I'd probably keep it shovel..... I know, that's not what you asked, can't help myself.

  I have a truly bastardized bike that started as a 76 FLH shovel, I bastardized it.  No real attraction or value to anyone else but it was my first Harley and at this point I am thinking I should have left it alone.

im shocked at any bastardized flh

may not be a FLH , but that Trike sure aint stock

your right there one of a kind