What do you guys think about VE's that are in the 100's in the low kPa areas. This bike, after 8 data runs, is showing 102 in cells at 1000 rpm's and 5/7/10 TP's, rear. High 90's on the front. Is this out of the norm?
Next question is when to start playing with EGR tables. I see the rear creeping up close at 124. Should I drop the EGR now or wait until it pops? I planned to wait and make an attempt at EGR when I had the VE's dialed in but now that I see the rear climbing I thought about doing it before they bust.
Also, let's say I drop the EGR table in the rear and get the VE's dialed in. The front I don't touch, they dial in without it. Is EGR dealt with on a sole cylinder approach or is there something to be looking at between both front and rear? Part of me is thinking that 14.6 is 14.6 regardless of how I get there but the anal part of me is wondering if there's any relationship between front and rear. if I mess with one does that necessitate me messing with the other?
08 Softail FXSTC, 103, 255's, Rush slipons with 2" baffles.
Quote from: 07heri on April 19, 2013, 06:28:43 PM
What do you guys think about VE's that are in the 100's in the low kPa areas. This bike, after 8 data runs, is showing 102 in cells at 1000 rpm's and 5/7/10 TP's, rear. High 90's on the front. Is this out of the norm?
What are your VE's in the 750 RPM range? If they are much lower you can drop your idle rpm down to low 800's and VE those area's. This will bring your 750 area up and your 1000 down.
Quote from: 07heri on April 19, 2013, 06:28:43 PM
Next question is when to start playing with EGR tables. I see the rear creeping up close at 124. Should I drop the EGR now or wait until it pops? I planned to wait and make an attempt at EGR when I had the VE's dialed in but now that I see the rear climbing I thought about doing it before they bust.
I mess with EGR after the first Vtune, not counting little Vtunes for Cal comparison.
Quote from: 07heri on April 19, 2013, 06:28:43 PM
Also, let's say I drop the EGR table in the rear and get the VE's dialed in. The front I don't touch, they dial in without it. Is EGR dealt with on a sole cylinder approach or is there something to be looking at between both front and rear? Part of me is thinking that 14.6 is 14.6 regardless of how I get there but the anal part of me is wondering if there's any relationship between front and rear. if I mess with one does that necessitate me messing with the other?
08 Softail FXSTC, 103, 255's, Rush slipons with 2" baffles.
You have front and rear EGR so you can adjust them separately. I treat them different and adjust accordingly to what that VE table wants, not caring if the adjustment is the same front and rear.
Egr is used to take care of odd looking areas in the cells. Running the EGR effect analyiser will point to any problem areas if they exist. If the cell filling is progressive and normal looking I wouldn't worry about the higher numbers. If some areas max at 127.5 up the CI a few, drop the ve tables 3-5% and repeat some vtune runs. This will globally drop the ve tables when done. Front and rear quite often have a spread in ve's as well, so nothing to get excited about.
Ron
Quote from: rbabos on April 20, 2013, 06:34:59 AM
Egr is used to take care of odd looking areas in the cells. Running the EGR effect analyiser will point to any problem areas if they exist. If the cell filling is progressive and normal looking I wouldn't worry about the higher numbers. If some areas max at 127.5 up the CI a few, drop the ve tables 3-5% and repeat some vtune runs. This will globally drop the ve tables when done. Front and rear quite often have a spread in ve's as well, so nothing to get excited about.
Ron
Is there a reason to up the displacement instead of reducing the high cell area by lowering the egr table in that area?
Yes there is. There are other tables based on VE's, displacement, injector size tables.... With the build you have. You should be able to handle high VE's with EGR tables. IMPO I would start with EGR.
Quote from: hrdtail78 on April 20, 2013, 02:18:58 PM
Yes there is. There are other tables based on VE's, displacement, injector size tables.... With the build you have. You should be able to handle high VE's with EGR tables. IMPO I would start with EGR.
That was my thought also. I thought if EGR smooths things out a bit I'd rather do it that way than get into other tables.
I ran 2 more back-to-back AT's (PowerVision) this afternoon. No cell changed more than 2%. Most are 0% and 1%. So I really don't think any more data runs are needed. What I do notice, when I put my ear next to the mufflers, is a slight gurgle in the rear. The front sounds like it's hitting smooth and tight (for lack of a better word). The rear has a faint gurgle that I can hear. This is at idle just sitting there. I'm wondering if that sound is telling me the rear is rich (it had the high VE's).
Using PowerVision to log data, is there something that I can log to confirm this? What to log and what to look for?
I'm thirsty now :soda: but tomorrow I'm gonna cut and paste the front VE's to the rear table and see if the sound is different. It might help confirm it's rich. But, I'd prefer to log the correct channels and actually be able to see some data that tells me what's going on. So, any ideas (PowerVision) I will try.
Im far from an expert on this section however I dont think I would be adjusting VEs that close ........based on the sounds of my pipes at Idle :nix:
Quote from: HV on April 20, 2013, 05:15:18 PM
Im far from an expert on this section however I dont think I would be adjusting VEs that close ........based on the sounds of my pipes at Idle :nix:
I didn't plan on running it there...lol. Just a shadetree experiment to see if the sound is AFR related or exhaust tone related.
Quote from: 07heri on April 20, 2013, 09:49:00 AM
Quote from: rbabos on April 20, 2013, 06:34:59 AM
Egr is used to take care of odd looking areas in the cells. Running the EGR effect analyiser will point to any problem areas if they exist. If the cell filling is progressive and normal looking I wouldn't worry about the higher numbers. If some areas max at 127.5 up the CI a few, drop the ve tables 3-5% and repeat some vtune runs. This will globally drop the ve tables when done. Front and rear quite often have a spread in ve's as well, so nothing to get excited about.
Ron
Is there a reason to up the displacement instead of reducing the high cell area by lowering the egr table in that area?
If you have a small random area of high ve's in relation to the surrounding then EGR is what you want to do. If the whole table is high but looks decent then increase the CI. This is what scaling does in PV. You weren't exactly clear on what you have.
Ron
0 2 5 7 10 15
750 90.3 90.3 90.3 90.3 90.3 90.3
1000 103.6 102.4 100.8 96.6 96.6 96.6
1250 97.3 94.3 100.1 97.1 100.1 101.8
1500 100.9 95.3 102.3 106.3 103.8 100.6
1750 104.0 97.0 99.3 103.7 103.0 99.4
2000 109.7 100.0 97.4 100.8 102.0 105.2
This is what I have going on on the rear from 0 to 2000
Have you double checked for exhaust leak? that could be driving those ve's up
Have you collected data at 750?
Cant lower rpm any lower than 900. I tried to lower it in the settings to 800 but it keeps coming back at 900. Never collected anything lower than the 1000/0 cell.
Quote from: wolf_59 on April 21, 2013, 04:46:13 PM
Have you double checked for exhaust leak? that could be driving those ve's up
The only one questionable was the where the rear pipe goes into the crossover. Those things are kinda mickey mouse. Couldnt tell with a hose if it was leaking or I was hearing the front muffler. Took the entire exhaust off tonight and will get new seals in the morning from the dealer. If I did have leak I won't by noon tomorrow. Gonna spray the intake after exhaust is done. Hopefully eliminate the dumb crap. Replaced 02 sensors last week so that should be good.
Here's a kicker. Where the crossover fits into the head pipe is like an inch diameter elbow. Harley has no problem welding that elbow on the headpipe and leaving an inch sticking inside the pipe. But they couldn't get the 02 sensors in deep enough. Go figure.
Quote from: 07heri on April 21, 2013, 07:58:15 PM
Here's a kicker. Where the crossover fits into the head pipe is like an inch diameter elbow. Harley has no problem welding that elbow on the headpipe and leaving an inch sticking inside the pipe. But they couldn't get the 02 sensors in deep enough. Go figure.
:agree: :hyst:
Well definitely no leaks exhaust or intake. Anyone have any ideas what to look at next?
After being told numerous times to double check the intake for leaks I went back and found it leaking on the rear. Coincidence the rear VE's were the ones I was having trouble with?
The dealer was closed so I couldn't get seals tonight. Grabbed a beer and decided to do a dry run of installing the seals. I set it all up without the flanges so I could see how the spigots lined up. Arlen Ness Big Sucker backing plate pulled the front spigot all the way into the front cylinder and all the gap on the rear. You could watch it get cockeyed as it snugged up. :wtf:
Grabbed his stock football setup to see how that lined up. Perfect! Same gap on both sides and spigots look centered nice, by eyeball.
I'm willing to bet he's been running around with it leaking ever since he put on the Big Sucker AC and never knew it. Based on how cockeyed it got when snugging it up it's obvious it pulled the rear seal away from how it sat with the OEM AC. This is one time I'm glad the dealer was closed. Otherwise I doubt I would have did a dry run and just stuck the new seals in and been chasing my tail.
So, I guess I'll try to shim the Big Sucker, or shave some off, and see if it will play nice with the cylinders. I'm hoping this will be the end of the crazy VE's on the rear.
Quote from: 07heri on April 24, 2013, 08:52:10 PM
After being told numerous times to double check the intake for leaks I went back and found it leaking on the rear. Coincidence the rear VE's were the ones I was having trouble with?
The dealer was closed so I couldn't get seals tonight. Grabbed a beer and decided to do a dry run of installing the seals. I set it all up without the flanges so I could see how the spigots lined up. Arlen Ness Big Sucker backing plate pulled the front spigot all the way into the front cylinder and all the gap on the rear. You could watch it get cockeyed as it snugged up. :wtf:
Grabbed his stock football setup to see how that lined up. Perfect! Same gap on both sides and spigots look centered nice, by eyeball.
I'm willing to bet he's been running around with it leaking ever since he put on the Big Sucker AC and never knew it. Based on how cockeyed it got when snugging it up it's obvious it pulled the rear seal away from how it sat with the OEM AC. This is one time I'm glad the dealer was closed. Otherwise I doubt I would have did a dry run and just stuck the new seals in and been chasing my tail.
So, I guess I'll try to shim the Big Sucker, or shave some off, and see if it will play nice with the cylinders. I'm hoping this will be the end of the crazy VE's on the rear.
Good plan on the dry run with the backing plate. Did the same with my 120 on first time install. Let's you know exactly where you stand and make adjustments prior to final bolt on. A leak intake or exhaust will drive the ve up when tuning so I think you found the smoking gun.
Ron