Any issues with running the S&S 570 cam at 10.3? It's a Dyna at 95". Would 10:1 or under be better like S&S suggests?
How old are the heads? A simple valve job will drop that number a bit. I would guess it also depends on what tuner device and who the tuner is. It'll definitely move the power a tick to the left.
big boyz calculator puts the ccp @ 198 using a 95in@10.31 and S&S 570. Use the EZ Starts if you have no releases , dont see why it wont work just fine. Should have some good grunt from the get go. Bob
A little more background if needed:
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,113583.msg1360542.html#msg1360542
I had what is turning out to be a not so great experience with a small indy shop on this build. I took the motor apart to figure out the compression ratio and have the heads looked at and another shop said they weren't in great shape. They salvaged them for the most part, correcting the intake short run. I guess the flow numbers dropped off a cliff at .400 lift.
They also recommended swapping from a S&S 585 to the 570. The comp ratio would be 10.3 with a .030 head gasket.
I ran 570's in a 103 at 10.3 for about 20k, it was good :up: :up:
I just helped with one at 10.25:1 no problem.
Quote from: chris.m.j on January 04, 2021, 02:06:56 PM
Any issues with running the S&S 570 cam at 10.3? It's a Dyna at 95". Would 10:1 or under be better like S&S suggests?
10.3 will work great.
Wasn't 585 part of the Hippo build?
I believe that was the S&S 570.
The 117" with a .570 we did had enough torque to haul a hippo for sure... trailer not side car 👍
10:3 is perfect for that 570
Have seen that cam work well in 88" through 117".
We currently have that cam in our shop mule bike.
2002 Dyna.
Our Stage II Heads.
98".
CV carb, T/Heart ignition it came with.
Supertrapp 2/1, 39 plates with a closed end cap.
110 hp/115.
Yup Hippo build, Screaming Eagle HTCC heads and S&S 570, IIRC.
I've been running the 570 easy starts in a 95" at 10 to 1 for 15+ years.
Blackhills Ken did the build and JSachs did the bore and heads. 106/107
They work.
Mike
Just competed a 107" w/o headwork, S&S .570 EZ...set the squeeze at 10.3, and tuned it with Direct Link.
103/117....heads would've had another 10 hp + easily and low 20's torque.
Good cam used correctly.
Put the EZ start 570s in my 113 dyna this fall. Its set a 10.5 static. Runs great, no issues at all.
10.3 cr is the safe threshold.
Quote from: mrmike on January 08, 2021, 04:50:55 PM
Yup Hippo build, Screaming Eagle HTCC heads and S&S 570, IIRC.
I've been running the 570 easy starts in a 95" at 10 to 1 for 15+ years.
Blackhills Ken did the build and JSachs did the bore and heads. 106/107
They work.
Mike
Sounds like a winner :up:
What did you do to beef up the clutch to handle the tq/hp?
Thanks
A customer just left here with a 95",570 ES, build, 10.2:1, 2 hrs. ago. Dyno results tomorrow or Monday.
John
Quote from: jsachs1 on February 12, 2021, 04:10:32 PM
A customer just left here with a 95",570 ES, build, 10.2:1, 2 hrs. ago. Dyno results tomorrow or Monday.
John
Thanks John. Any head work with this build? How important is the headwork for this recipe and what should be done at a minimum? Thanks :up:
"Yup Hippo build, Screaming Eagle HTCC heads and S&S 570, "
The non HTCC heads, aka SE Performance heads, and 95".
Quote from: Deye76 on February 13, 2021, 07:24:17 AM
"Yup Hippo build, Screaming Eagle HTCC heads and S&S 570, "
The non HTCC heads, aka SE Performance heads, and 95".
That's correct SE Performance Heads which were 79cc and the 95" Flat tops and the 570 cam.
Quote from: Scotty on February 13, 2021, 01:22:28 PM
Quote from: Deye76 on February 13, 2021, 07:24:17 AM
"Yup Hippo build, Screaming Eagle HTCC heads and S&S 570, "
The non HTCC heads, aka SE Performance heads, and 95".
That's correct SE Performance Heads which were 79cc and the 95" Flat tops and the 570 cam.
Yep, that's what I recall as the hippo build.
If you can't get the SE heads anymore, what can you do to make the stock heads work in place of the SE performance heads for this hippo recipe?
Maybe you could reduce the cc's in the later SE 110 heads to retain the valve sizes by using domed pistons. The SE 110 heads (and MVA for sure) average 95-96 cc so a domed piston and maybe a bit of a cut combined to give you the 79 cc equivalent IMO should work. Maybe you can do it with just pistons. One of the builders familiar with the Hippo build with more knowledge on what is available may be able to help. :nix:
Quote from: Adam76 on February 13, 2021, 06:05:21 PM
Quote from: Scotty on February 13, 2021, 01:22:28 PM
Quote from: Deye76 on February 13, 2021, 07:24:17 AM
"Yup Hippo build, Screaming Eagle HTCC heads and S&S 570, "
The non HTCC heads, aka SE Performance heads, and 95".
That's correct SE Performance Heads which were 79cc and the 95" Flat tops and the 570 cam.
Yep, that's what I recall as the hippo build.
If you can't get the SE heads anymore, what can you do to make the stock heads work in place of the SE performance heads for this hippo recipe?
SE 10.25/1 piston with stock 85cc chamber would work. Sit and play with the calculator @ bigboyz and see what gives you 195ccp. Bob
Mill stock heads to 79cc and add a 1.9 intake valve and 1.61 exhaust, similar to my Street Pro package, $499. I prefer a small domed forged piston and a small amount of milling which eliminates the valve pocket issue which fixing was mandatory with the old Hippo build and stock cast pistons. The SE performance heads had a 1.9 x 1.625 valve package and were milled .060 right out of the box plus had the intake flanges were adjusted accordingly.
:up: I was guessing just milling would mean possible valve pocket concerns so I figured small domed pistons could get you close. (without knowing the stock head cc) The 110 or MVA valves may be too large for this 95" build.
Quote from: Adam76 on February 13, 2021, 05:22:00 AM
Quote from: jsachs1 on February 12, 2021, 04:10:32 PM
A customer just left here with a 95",570 ES, build, 10.2:1, 2 hrs. ago. Dyno results tomorrow or Monday.
John
Thanks John. Any head work with this build? How important is the headwork for this recipe and what should be done at a minimum? Thanks :up:
IMO, if you want to make over 95 hp., you will need head work.
John
Quote from: FXDBI on February 13, 2021, 06:17:45 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on February 13, 2021, 06:05:21 PM
Quote from: Scotty on February 13, 2021, 01:22:28 PM
Quote from: Deye76 on February 13, 2021, 07:24:17 AM
"Yup Hippo build, Screaming Eagle HTCC heads and S&S 570, "
The non HTCC heads, aka SE Performance heads, and 95".
That's correct SE Performance Heads which were 79cc and the 95" Flat tops and the 570 cam.
Yep, that's what I recall as the hippo build.
If you can't get the SE heads anymore, what can you do to make the stock heads work in place of the SE performance heads for this hippo recipe?
SE 10.25/1 piston with stock 85cc chamber would work. Sit and play with the calculator @ bigboyz and see what gives you 195ccp. Bob
Thanks Bob, I must new doing something wrong with the calculator 😆
With SE/10.25 and the 570 cams I keep getting 9.81 corrected compression and 206 ccp??
That's still assuming 85cc heads as well.
Quote from: Adam76 on February 19, 2021, 12:30:14 AM
Thanks Bob, I must new doing something wrong with the calculator 😆
With SE/10.25 and the 570 cams I keep getting 9.81 corrected compression and 206 ccp??
That's still assuming 85cc heads as well.
Also you are assuming 0 deck height and this was never the case with the stock twin cam cylinders bored out or buying 95" cylinders the pistons were always below 0 deck which you have to torque down and measure to cut the base of the cylinder to achieve 0 deck and was not part of the scope for a hippo build.
Hippos build also opened up the piston valve pockets as well which further reduced volume even when using 79cc heads.
So I can't find my notes but from memory they were .003-.005 down the hole and that might not be correct but it's close.
Quote from: Scotty on February 19, 2021, 01:23:29 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on February 19, 2021, 12:30:14 AM
Thanks Bob, I must new doing something wrong with the calculator 😆
With SE/10.25 and the 570 cams I keep getting 9.81 corrected compression and 206 ccp??
That's still assuming 85cc heads as well.
Also you are assuming 0 deck height and this was never the case with the stock twin cam cylinders bored out or buying 95" cylinders the pistons were always below 0 deck which you have to torque down and measure to cut the base of the cylinder to achieve 0 deck and was not part of the scope for a hippo build.
Hippos build also opened up the piston valve pockets as well which further reduced volume even when using 79cc heads.
So I can't find my notes but from memory they were .003-.005 down the hole and that might not be correct but it's close.
Thanks Scotty, i knew they would be at least a few thou in the hole, but even .004 in the hole still gives 204.4ccp?
Going to a 9,5 comp piston and 83cc heads comes out with just over 10.2 comp and 192ccp even with the pistons sitting a few thou down in the hole. Just another way to get the desired compression I guess. :scratch:
Quote from: Adam76 on February 19, 2021, 01:37:09 AM
Thanks Scotty, i knew they would be at least a few thou in the hole, but even .004 in the hole still gives 204.4ccp?
Going to a 9,5 comp piston and 83cc heads comes out with just over 10.2 comp and 192ccp even with the pistons sitting a few thou down in the hole. Just another way to get the desired compression I guess. :scratch:
I punched the numbers in and I would run it as is and I don't think you would have a problem.
[attach=0]
The SE cast pistons have a larger dome (11cc) than the 22868-00A forged pistons (6cc). Also there may be interference with the head by the downward slope of the valve pocket area on the cast pistons. :angry:
John
FWIW, the original 22868-00 had 8cc funky looking domes. Doubt that any of those can be found new today.
Quote from: jsachs1 on February 19, 2021, 01:42:04 PM
The SE cast pistons have a larger dome (11cc) than the 22868-00A forged pistons (6cc). Also there may be interference with the head by the downward slope of the valve pocket area on the cast pistons. :angry:
John
FWIW, the original 22868-00 had 8cc funky looking domes. Doubt that any of those can be found new today.
That is half the problem when trying to follow a recipe with different ingredients. Sometimes it just don't work.
Any pistons available that would work to achieve what he wants?
The 22868-00A pistons still appear as available or are they slightly different to the 22868-00 ??
Quote from: jsachs1 on February 19, 2021, 01:42:04 PM
The SE cast pistons have a larger dome (11cc) than the 22868-00A forged pistons (6cc). Also there may be interference with the head by the downward slope of the valve pocket area on the cast pistons. :angry:
John
FWIW, the original 22868-00 had 8cc funky looking domes. Doubt that any of those can be found new today.
Thanks John,
Yrs I would prefer a 6cc dome.... I think CP or J&E do pistons in those sizes. More $$$ but better to do it right the f first time.
Thanks again
Quote from: Scotty on February 19, 2021, 01:55:38 PM
Quote from: jsachs1 on February 19, 2021, 01:42:04 PM
The SE cast pistons have a larger dome (11cc) than the 22868-00A forged pistons (6cc). Also there may be interference with the head by the downward slope of the valve pocket area on the cast pistons. :angry:
John
FWIW, the original 22868-00 had 8cc funky looking domes. Doubt that any of those can be found new today.
That is half the problem when trying to follow a recipe with different ingredients. Sometimes it just don't work.
Any pistons available that would work to achieve what he wants?
The 22868-00A pistons still appear as available or are they slightly different to the 22868-00 ??
Thanks Scotty, the 22868-00A looks like a good possible option as long as I don't run into any trouble with the shape of the dome?
Cheers
*** seems like I have hijacked this thread (sorry). ****
I'll start my own build thread now.
Thanks guys. :up:
Quote from: jsachs1 on February 19, 2021, 01:42:04 PM
The SE cast pistons have a larger dome (11cc) than the 22868-00A forged pistons (6cc). Also there may be interference with the head by the downward slope of the valve pocket area on the cast pistons. :angry:
John
FWIW, the original 22868-00 had 8cc funky looking domes. Doubt that any of those can be found new today.
Thanks John,
Just to clarify, when I find the HD SE Forged pistons #22868-00A in the online catalogue they are listed as 10.5 c/r..... :scratch: I wish they weren't 10.5 because it would save me a couple hundred dollars.
Quote from: Adam76 on February 20, 2021, 01:11:34 AM
Just to clarify, when I find the HD SE Forged pistons #22868-00A in the online catalogue they are listed as 10.5 c/r..... :scratch: I wish they weren't 10.5 because it would save me a couple hundred dollars.
That is why I asked if the A changed the dome did you look at the image I attached?
It lists the A revision at 9.6:1 with stock heads and 10.5:1 with Kompressor heads.
The cast are listed at 10.25:1 with stock heads.
Quote from: Scotty on February 20, 2021, 01:21:27 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on February 20, 2021, 01:11:34 AM
Just to clarify, when I find the HD SE Forged pistons #22868-00A in the online catalogue they are listed as 10.5 c/r..... :scratch: I wish they weren't 10.5 because it would save me a couple hundred dollars.
That is why I asked if the A changed the dome did you look at the image I attached?
It lists the A revision at 9.6:1 with stock heads and 10.5:1 with Kompressor heads.
The cast are listed at 10.25:1 with stock heads.
Yes, that could work.
Wiseco also do a 95" 9.5 comp piston that comes in a + .020" which coud be good
CP do a 10.1 comp 98" piston that looks perfect.
Cheers :up:
Need to add elevation in the calculator, to get a better idea of corrected compression & cranking pressure.
Quote from: Adam76 on February 20, 2021, 03:34:32 AM
Quote from: Scotty on February 20, 2021, 01:21:27 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on February 20, 2021, 01:11:34 AM
Just to clarify, when I find the HD SE Forged pistons #22868-00A in the online catalogue they are listed as 10.5 c/r..... :scratch: I wish they weren't 10.5 because it would save me a couple hundred dollars.
That is why I asked if the A changed the dome did you look at the image I attached?
It lists the A revision at 9.6:1 with stock heads and 10.5:1 with Kompressor heads.
The cast are listed at 10.25:1 with stock heads.
Yes, that could work.
Wiseco also do a 95" 9.5 comp piston that comes in a + .020" which coud be good
CP do a 10.1 comp 98" piston that looks perfect.
Cheers :up:
I've always liked the strategy of going 3.875" + .040" or +.050". Getting you real close to 98" but still leaving a little extra clearance and opportunity to go 3.938" down the road if needed 👍.
The new KB super duty pistons are excellent and have lots of options.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on February 13, 2021, 06:18:30 PM
Mill stock heads to 79cc and add a 1.9 intake valve and 1.61 exhaust, similar to my Street Pro package, $499. I prefer a small domed forged piston and a small amount of milling which eliminates the valve pocket issue which fixing was mandatory with the old Hippo build and stock cast pistons. The SE performance heads had a 1.9 x 1.625 valve package and were milled .060 right out of the box plus had the intake flanges were adjusted accordingly.
This could work well with the tts-150 conversion cam. Or a CR575 👍
Identical build on my bench right now but it is a 95"
Quote from: HD Street Performance on February 20, 2021, 08:39:35 AM
Identical build on my bench right now but it is a 95"
Identical to which one?
Reply 25, Street Pro heads and Cr575 at 10.3:1. 2001 ultra efi
Quote from: HD Street Performance on February 20, 2021, 09:38:51 AM
Reply 25, Street Pro heads and Cr575 at 10.3:1. 2001 ultra efi
Question on the efi, converted to Delphi?
Quote from: Deye76 on February 20, 2021, 07:35:57 AM
Need to add elevation in the calculator, to get a better idea of corrected compression & cranking pressure.
This is Australia mate............fairly flat all over :hyst:
Australia is the lowest continent in the world with an average elevation of only 330 metres. The highest points on the other continents are all more than twice the height of Australia's highest peak, Mount Kosciuszko which is 2228 metres above sea level.
It pays to look at the country under the name. I need to do that more often. :teeth:
Quote from: 838 on February 20, 2021, 08:31:17 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on February 20, 2021, 03:34:32 AM
Quote from: Scotty on February 20, 2021, 01:21:27 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on February 20, 2021, 01:11:34 AM
Just to clarify, when I find the HD SE Forged pistons #22868-00A in the online catalogue they are listed as 10.5 c/r..... :scratch: I wish they weren't 10.5 because it would save me a couple hundred dollars.
That is why I asked if the A changed the dome did you look at the image I attached?
It lists the A revision at 9.6:1 with stock heads and 10.5:1 with Kompressor heads.
The cast are listed at 10.25:1 with stock heads.
Yes, that could work.
Wiseco also do a 95" 9.5 comp piston that comes in a + .020" which coud be good
CP do a 10.1 comp 98" piston that looks perfect.
Cheers :up:
I've always liked the strategy of going 3.875" + .040" or +.050". Getting you real close to 98" but still leaving a little extra clearance and opportunity to go 3.938" down the road if needed 👍.
The new KB super duty pistons are excellent and have lots of options.
I like the idea of going 3.875" + 040".... Wiseco might do a piston that size? I know they do a 95" + .020".
From what I can see, KB doesn't offer a piston for a 4.00" stroke TC88 - 95/98" motor.... only 103" and up?
Quote from: HD Street Performance on February 20, 2021, 09:38:51 AM
Reply 25, Street Pro heads and Cr575 at 10.3:1. 2001 ultra efi
Sounds like a good build, should rip. :scoot:
When installing manual compression releases to a set of heads, which are the best ones to get? I've seen some that were $100 a set! Can they be had cheaper? This woud open my cam choice right up instead of only being able to use S&S easy start cams.
Thanks
Quote from: Adam76 on February 20, 2021, 01:11:34 AM
Quote from: jsachs1 on February 19, 2021, 01:42:04 PM
The SE cast pistons have a larger dome (11cc) than the 22868-00A forged pistons (6cc). Also there may be interference with the head by the downward slope of the valve pocket area on the cast pistons. :angry:
John
FWIW, the original 22868-00 had 8cc funky looking domes. Doubt that any of those can be found new today.
Thanks John,
Just to clarify, when I find the HD SE Forged pistons #22868-00A in the online catalogue they are listed as 10.5 c/r..... :scratch: I wish they weren't 10.5 because it would save me a couple hundred dollars.
I used to buy the 22868-00A pistons, 5 packs to the case for years, and you can take it to the bank, that they're 6 cc. domes. The cast pistons, have the 11cc dome. I trust very little that I read, so I cc everything that I use. I still use the 22868-00A pistons on most of my 95" builds.
John
Quote from: Adam76 on February 20, 2021, 04:46:22 PM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on February 20, 2021, 09:38:51 AM
Reply 25, Street Pro heads and Cr575 at 10.3:1. 2001 ultra efi
Sounds like a good build, should rip. :scoot:
When installing manual compression releases to a set of heads, which are the best ones to get? I've seen some that were $100 a set! Can they be had cheaper? This woud open my cam choice right up instead of only being able to use S&S easy start cams.
Thanks
MCRs installed are usually about $150. S&S EZ start cams are about $150 more than a standard set. The way I look at it, you break even there.
Quote from: jsachs1 on February 20, 2021, 05:04:08 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on February 20, 2021, 01:11:34 AM
Quote from: jsachs1 on February 19, 2021, 01:42:04 PM
The SE cast pistons have a larger dome (11cc) than the 22868-00A forged pistons (6cc). Also there may be interference with the head by the downward slope of the valve pocket area on the cast pistons. :angry:
John
FWIW, the original 22868-00 had 8cc funky looking domes. Doubt that any of those can be found new today.
Thanks John,
Just to clarify, when I find the HD SE Forged pistons #22868-00A in the online catalogue they are listed as 10.5 c/r..... :scratch: I wish they weren't 10.5 because it would save me a couple hundred dollars.
I used to buy the 22868-00A pistons, 5 packs to the case for years, and you can take it to the bank, that they're 6 cc. domes. The cast pistons, have the 11cc dome. I trust very little that I read, so I cc everything that I use. I still use the 22868-00A pistons on most of my 95" builds.
John
Thanks John, appreciate the verification. :up:
"From what I can see, KB doesn't offer a piston for a 4.00" stroke TC88 - 95/98" motor.... only 103" and up? "
KB905C 6.7cc 10:1 available STD to +040
In stock here, very common piston
Quote from: Adam76 on February 12, 2021, 06:31:13 AM
Quote from: mrmike on January 08, 2021, 04:50:55 PM
Yup Hippo build, Screaming Eagle HTCC heads and S&S 570, IIRC.
I've been running the 570 easy starts in a 95" at 10 to 1 for 15+ years.
Blackhills Ken did the build and JSachs did the bore and heads. 106/107
They work.
Mike
Sounds like a winner :up:
What did you do to beef up the clutch to handle the tq/hp?
Thanks
Already had a VPC so we just put a Barnett extra plate clutch in, works great. Bike has 40,000 miles on this build and clutch total mileage is around 70k.
Mike
Quote from: 04rkryder on February 21, 2021, 07:41:02 AM
"From what I can see, KB doesn't offer a piston for a 4.00" stroke TC88 - 95/98" motor.... only 103" and up? "
KB905C 6.7cc 10:1 available STD to +040
I just did a 95" build with those pistons. Knocked .030" off the domes. Came in at 5.2 cc. I haven't seen the dyno sheet yet, but was told 108 hp. and 111 ft. lbs. ( see reply # 18).
John
Quote from: 04rkryder on February 21, 2021, 07:41:02 AM
"From what I can see, KB doesn't offer a piston for a 4.00" stroke TC88 - 95/98" motor.... only 103" and up? "
KB905C 6.7cc 10:1 available STD to +040
😆 you just beat me to it, I just found them also..
With regards to the .020 - .040" oversize pistons which increases the bore to closer to a 97" build... Can you get the exact 3.905 / 3.915 size MLS .030" Cometic head gasket to match the 95" + .020 / .040 oversize bore?
This looks like the way I'm going.
Thanks
Quote from: jsachs1 on February 21, 2021, 02:44:39 PM
Quote from: 04rkryder on February 21, 2021, 07:41:02 AM
"From what I can see, KB doesn't offer a piston for a 4.00" stroke TC88 - 95/98" motor.... only 103" and up? "
KB905C 6.7cc 10:1 available STD to +040
I just did a 95" build with those pistons. Knocked .030" off the domes. Came in at 5.2 cc. I haven't seen the dyno sheet yet, but was told 108 hp. and 111 ft. lbs. ( see reply # 18).
John
Thanks for reporting back on this build John. 👍👍
Turned out well.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on February 20, 2021, 09:38:51 AM
Reply 25, Street Pro heads and Cr575 at 10.3:1. 2001 ultra efi
Hi, in your experience with building and tuning S&S 570 and CR575 cams in 95"/97" big bore builds. With a set of later model 96" stock heads (NO headwork) -- which of the 2 cams at around 10-1 / 10.2 compression would do better? Overall TQ probably the most important, area under the curve etc.
Thanks for your advice.