I replaced my stock clutch plates last year with the 10 plate kit from BDL after having my 2015 road glide special dyno tuned by BVHOG. He noticed there was some clutch slip in the 6th gear pulls, and honestly, I noticed it after the dyno tune during everyday riding as well if I really gave it some juice.
But starting late last year, and this year as well, I've been experiencing creep while in gear at stops, especially when it's hot. The first thing I did was to drop the spectro primary fluid I was using and replaced with B & M trick shift per BDL's recommendations (even though they say you can run any non-syn primary), thinking that maybe it was the fluid.
Switching to B&M helped a little, but it didn't completely solve it. So about a month ago I flushed and bled the clutch hydraulic fluid, so it's all fresh, thinking I'd rule out the possibility that maybe the last time I did it, I didn't do it correctly. I reverse bled the system this time so I'm positive I have no air in there.
Have been riding to work everyday, and also rode a few hundred miles over this past weekend, and it's still creeping (and nearly impossible to get into neutral unless the bike is off) and seems to be getting worse - but now, I've been noticing that I'll get quite a bit of slack in the lever when shifting quickly, kind of like cable clutch freeplay. It does get solid a few seconds after the shift is made, but I don't recall the lever doing that for the last 50K+ miles I've put on this bike, and it wasn't exhibiting this symptom when I first put in the 10 plate clutch kit.
So given that I've replaced the clutch plates with the BDL 10-plate, could it be that the plates are hanging on the clutch basket, causing the creeping AND the lever slack, OR might my slave or master cylinder be failing?
Anyone run across this before or have any ideas what else it might be? I've recently read about some on HDforums that went with the high-performance stock M8 clutch pack with the thicker judder spring spacer to move the friction zone closer to the grip, and have been considering this as an option, but I want to hold off on doing that until I confirm it's the BDL clutch pak that's causing the issue.
I'm planning on pulling my outer primary at my next primary oil change (due soon) and pull the plates and check them, but thought I'd run this up the flag pole to see if you fellas think it's completely unrelated to the BDL kit before I do.
Help......!!
I'd measure the throw out first. Easy to do and will eliminate a bunch of stuff.
Quote from: Coyote on June 29, 2020, 08:49:18 AM
I'd measure the throw out first. Easy to do and will eliminate a bunch of stuff.
Is this done through the derby cover and do I use the primary cover as my datum point to measure how much actuation distance my clutch has?
I'm guessing the procedure is in the manual, but there's usually more than one way to skin a cat - got any pointers?
hopefully this isn't alluding to a bad throw out bearing..... :emsad:
Yes it's in the manual. I use a small bar stock to lay across to set my caliper on. I usually look for around 0.080".
Quote from: Coyote on June 29, 2020, 01:55:09 PM
Yes it's in the manual. I use a small bar stock to lay across to set my caliper on. I usually look for around 0.080".
I kind of figured that's what the procedure would be. I'll look through the manual tonight and find a good piece of flat bar to use - will report back with my findings.
Thanks C!
If the clutch travel checks out OK try 3-4 ounces of Lubeguard highly friction modified SYN ATF supplement. You can get it at most auto part stores. It's purpose in life is to stop harsh shifting/engagement. :beer:
It could just be air in the hydraulic system. Have you considered bleeding the system before throwing money at it?
Quote from: turboprop on June 29, 2020, 04:59:16 PM
It could just be air in the hydraulic system. Have you considered bleeding the system before throwing money at it?
OP says he has flushed and filled the system.
I remember a recall on the hydraulic clutches, is this part of that recall, if so, has it been done?
Quote from: Hossamania on June 29, 2020, 05:07:26 PM
I remember a recall on the hydraulic clutches, is this part of that recall, if so, has it been done?
Yep, the recall was performed before I took possession of the bike back in 2015. That's what the service manager told me when I mentioned this problem to him last time I was in the dealership.
Quote from: turboprop on June 29, 2020, 04:59:16 PM
It could just be air in the hydraulic system. Have you considered bleeding the system before throwing money at it?
Yeah, I just flushed/bled the system about a month ago thinking it could be air or that the fluid had already gone bad from the flush/bleed I performed last year. The difference was that last year I used a mityvac to pull from the master down, this year I reverse bled thinking maybe I was getting a bad seal on my vac
Quote from: Coyote on June 29, 2020, 01:55:09 PM
Yes it's in the manual. I use a small bar stock to lay across to set my caliper on. I usually look for around 0.080".
Measured the throwout, came up with .079" - manual says spec is .078"
Isn't B&M trick shift formulated to make automatic transmission bands & clutches shift hard and not slip? As in, your clutch is not slipping when you want it to? Just for fun, you might consider replacing the primary fluid with the stock HD stuff and see what happens. Super easy to do and at least rule out the fluid as the culprit.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on June 29, 2020, 07:38:29 PM
Isn't B&M trick shift formulated to make automatic transmission bands & clutches shift hard and not slip? As in, your clutch is not slipping when you want it to? Just for fun, you might consider replacing the primary fluid with the stock HD stuff and see what happens. Super easy to do and at least rule out the fluid as the culprit.
-JW
I actually ran the HD primary as well as Spectro primary when I first put the kit in, and it started creeping a little probably a couple of months after that, which prompted my first hydraulic fluid flush, still crept, but not as bad as recently. BDL specifically recommends B&M, ATF or non-syn primary fluid in their instructions, so I thought I’d switch up from traditional primary fluids to B&M to see if it would fix the creeping.
On a side note, I’ve been reading the overfull primary thread in this section, mine shouldn’t be overfull, I dump 1 qt in at my changes and book spec is 38 oz wet - thought I’d mention that before it comes up....maybe I need to back off 3-4 more oz on my fill?
It’s not a big deal to pull the outer, clean the fibers and see if that fixes it, if that is even the correct direction to take. I’m at a bit of loss at this point given the throwout is good, fluid in the line & master is fresh. Still wondering about the lever free play that goes away on its own after a few seconds - that has me stumped
Quote from: Shadowbennie on June 29, 2020, 07:46:52 PM
Quote from: JW113 on June 29, 2020, 07:38:29 PM
Isn't B&M trick shift formulated to make automatic transmission bands & clutches shift hard and not slip? As in, your clutch is not slipping when you want it to? Just for fun, you might consider replacing the primary fluid with the stock HD stuff and see what happens. Super easy to do and at least rule out the fluid as the culprit.
-JW
I actually ran the HD primary as well as Spectro primary when I first put the kit in, and it started creeping a little probably a couple of months after that, which prompted my first hydraulic fluid flush, still crept, but not as bad as recently. BDL specifically recommends B&M, ATF or non-syn primary fluid in their instructions, so I thought I'd switch up from traditional primary fluids to B&M to see if it would fix the creeping.
On a side note, I've been reading the overfull primary thread in this section, mine shouldn't be overfull, I dump 1 qt in at my changes and book spec is 38 oz wet - thought I'd mention that before it comes up....maybe I need to back off 3-4 more oz on my fill?
It's not a big deal to pull the outer, clean the fibers and see if that fixes it, if that is even the correct direction to take. I'm at a bit of loss at this point given the throwout is good, fluid in the line & master is fresh. Still wondering about the lever free play that goes away on its own after a few seconds - that has me stumped
I think you are headed in the right direction reducing the lube level and cleaning the discs for a fresh start. IMO the Spectro is top notch and covers "all" of the needs of a primary well.
As for the changing free play at the lever, it may be a trap door / bearing issue. You can make the free play change intentionally if you are in one of the gears that are helical cut like 3rd. Take up the free play with your finger tips and roll the power on and off. The lever will twitch from plenty of free plat to very little as you do it. You may be getting a similar thing occurring because the transmission main shaft is travelling due to the influence of the helical gears loading up upon release of the lever.
Not sure if this is relevant but I just looked up primary lube level in owners manual for my 2016 Road Glide and it stated 34 oz wet and 38 oz dry. Is it the same for a 2015? Mine has the slim profile primary so just checking and trying to help.
Quote from: Jaystn62 on June 29, 2020, 09:29:29 PM
Not sure if this is relevant but I just looked up primary lube level in owners manual for my 2016 Road Glide and it stated 34 oz wet and 38 oz dry. Is it the same for a 2015? Mine has the slim profile primary so just checking and trying to help.
I appreciate the suggestion & help. I'm sure there's a difference between the slim primary and standard, but it certainly can't hurt to double check the spec!
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on June 29, 2020, 04:00:51 PM
If the clutch travel checks out OK try 3-4 ounces of Lubeguard highly friction modified SYN ATF supplement. You can get it at most auto part stores. It's purpose in life is to stop harsh shifting/engagement. :beer:
:agree: :wink:
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on June 30, 2020, 07:21:14 AM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on June 29, 2020, 04:00:51 PM
If the clutch travel checks out OK try 3-4 ounces of Lubeguard highly friction modified SYN ATF supplement. You can get it at most auto part stores. It's purpose in life is to stop harsh shifting/engagement. :beer:
:agree: :wink:
Is this a one-time deal just to free up the plates if they're sticking, or something that must be added every time?
Quote from: Shadowbennie on June 30, 2020, 01:58:40 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on June 30, 2020, 07:21:14 AM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on June 29, 2020, 04:00:51 PM
If the clutch travel checks out OK try 3-4 ounces of Lubeguard highly friction modified SYN ATF supplement. You can get it at most auto part stores. It's purpose in life is to stop harsh shifting/engagement. :beer:
:agree: :wink:
Is this a one-time deal just to free up the plates if they're sticking, or something that must be added every time?
Do it at every fluid change.
Deduct the 3-4 ounces from the volume of ATF you put in.
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on June 30, 2020, 08:43:39 PM
Quote from: Shadowbennie on June 30, 2020, 01:58:40 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on June 30, 2020, 07:21:14 AM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on June 29, 2020, 04:00:51 PM
If the clutch travel checks out OK try 3-4 ounces of Lubeguard highly friction modified SYN ATF supplement. You can get it at most auto part stores. It's purpose in life is to stop harsh shifting/engagement. :beer:
:agree: :wink:
Is this a one-time deal just to free up the plates if they're sticking, or something that must be added every time?
Do it at every fluid change.
Deduct the 3-4 ounces from the volume of ATF you put in.
I thought as much - I think I'm going to try pulling the plates and clean the fibers with brake cleaner. I'll let them dry overnight, soak them in spectro primary again, then try deducting 3-4 oz from my fluid fill to see if that solves it. I'd prefer to stick with primary fluid, and although ATF seems to be an ok choice, my thought is that the need to add another fluid into the mix shouldn't be necessary otherwise I would think BDL would've suggested it.
Might try calling BDL as well to get their take. Thanks for the info though!
I like your choice of lube. :up: While you have the cover off and access to the basket, it will be a good time to fashion a dip stick for filling. I personally do not allow the fill level to touch the rim on the basket where the lugs are from the discs. Remember that when the bike sits on the jiffy stand the lean angle will allow the oil to climb up into the fibers when sitting or idling. For that reason I (and others I know) fill slightly below the level in the diagram in the manual. There is no need to be concerned about enough lube to feed the comp and chain as there will be a storm of oil flinging around in there when running down the road.
See post 19 :wink:
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,108941.0/all.html
Quote from: Shadowbennie on July 01, 2020, 06:18:59 AM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on June 30, 2020, 08:43:39 PM
Quote from: Shadowbennie on June 30, 2020, 01:58:40 PM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on June 30, 2020, 07:21:14 AM
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on June 29, 2020, 04:00:51 PM
If the clutch travel checks out OK try 3-4 ounces of Lubeguard highly friction modified SYN ATF supplement. You can get it at most auto part stores. It's purpose in life is to stop harsh shifting/engagement. :beer:
:agree: :wink:
Is this a one-time deal just to free up the plates if they're sticking, or something that must be added every time?
Do it at every fluid change.
Deduct the 3-4 ounces from the volume of ATF you put in.
I thought as much - I think I'm going to try pulling the plates and clean the fibers with brake cleaner. I'll let them dry overnight, soak them in spectro primary again, then try deducting 3-4 oz from my fluid fill to see if that solves it. I'd prefer to stick with primary fluid, and although ATF seems to be an ok choice, my thought is that the need to add another fluid into the mix shouldn't be necessary otherwise I would think BDL would've suggested it.
Might try calling BDL as well to get their take. Thanks for the info though!
The Trick Shift you've been using IS ATF.... mix the Lifeguard with it. :up:
Quote from: kd on July 01, 2020, 06:51:44 AM
I like your choice of lube. :up: While you have the cover off and access to the basket, it will be a good time to fashion a dip stick for filling. I personally do not allow the fill level to touch the rim on the basket where the lugs are from the discs. Remember that when the bike sits on the jiffy stand the lean angle will allow the oil to climb up into the fibers when sitting or idling. For that reason I (and others I know) fill slightly below the level in the diagram in the manual. There is no need to be concerned about enough lube to feed the comp and chain as there will be a storm of oil flinging around in there when running down the road.
See post 19 :wink:
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,108941.0/all.html
Ok, fibers have been sprayed down with brake clean, and I merely wiped the steels with clean rags. Will let the fibers dry overnight. A couple of questions, just to make sure I've got it right;
1. Do I need to soak the plates in my choice of primary fluid for more than about 30 minutes?
2. Do I wipe off the excess fluid before installing them? I don't think I did last time.
3. One of my steels looks pretty shiny, like it's glazed (see pic) or is does this steel look ok?
4. Does it matter the order I put them back in now that they have some wear on them? I kept things in order and orientation just in case
[attach=0]
Quote from: Shadowbennie on July 01, 2020, 06:58:52 PM
Quote from: kd on July 01, 2020, 06:51:44 AM
I like your choice of lube. :up: While you have the cover off and access to the basket, it will be a good time to fashion a dip stick for filling. I personally do not allow the fill level to touch the rim on the basket where the lugs are from the discs. Remember that when the bike sits on the jiffy stand the lean angle will allow the oil to climb up into the fibers when sitting or idling. For that reason I (and others I know) fill slightly below the level in the diagram in the manual. There is no need to be concerned about enough lube to feed the comp and chain as there will be a storm of oil flinging around in there when running down the road.
See post 19 :wink:
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,108941.0/all.html
Ok, fibers have been sprayed down with brake clean, and I merely wiped the steels with clean rags. Will let the fibers dry overnight. A couple of questions, just to make sure I've got it right;
1. Do I need to soak the plates in my choice of primary fluid for more than about 30 minutes?
2. Do I wipe off the excess fluid before installing them? I don't think I did last time.
3. One of my steels looks pretty shiny, like it's glazed (see pic) or is does this steel look ok?
4. Does it matter the order I put them back in now that they have some wear on them? I kept things in order and orientation just in case
[attach=0]
1. Getting them wet should be OK. As soon as you ride the bike the lube storm occurs and they will be in their natural medium. Many still run dry clutches so don't be too concerned.
2. Any excess fluid will be either absorbed into the fiber or squeezed out when the clutch spring is installed.
3. The steels on the outside of the pac will cool quicker and hold their shape and color better when slipping the clutch. (If you were experiencing "creep", that may be an indication the discs were dragging and glazing could result from them never cleanly releasing) That said, I would consider taping a sheet of 220 or 320 grit good quality paper to a sheet of glass and doing a few figure 8's with the fibers and the steels before re installation. Inspect them for evidence of uneven contact with the paper that could indicate warped discs. You can be more aggressive with the steels to remove any glazing.
3. You could reinstall them in the same order but if they look good after a little light message I wouldn't be too concerned if they were installed out of the previous order.
Take the opportunity to inspect the basket and hub slots and spline for damage from the dogs on the discs. If any, they can be dressed out with a fine file if ragged. Having a clean and smooth contact for the discs will also allow the discs to "get loose" and help reduce any chance of drag when released.
After banging my head against the wall with my hydraulic clutch doing the same as yours, it finally hit me...no not the wall. I never replaced the steel plates during any of my attempts at fixing my clutch. Visually they looked ok...a few showed a little bluing. I finally followed the manual and checked them for flatness. All but one were fine...just that one plate being a little bit out of whack wreaked havoc with the clutch. Replaced all of the steel plates and clutch works great.
Quote from: Screamin beagle on July 02, 2020, 11:12:43 AM
After banging my head against the wall with my hydraulic clutch doing the same as yours, it finally hit me...no not the wall. I never replaced the steel plates during any of my attempts at fixing my clutch. Visually they looked ok...a few showed a little bluing. I finally followed the manual and checked them for flatness. All but one were fine...just that one plate being a little bit out of whack wreaked havoc with the clutch. Replaced all of the steel plates and clutch works great.
That thought occurred to me - maybe the steels are warped, but visually speaking, they all look pretty good except for the (1) plate in the picture, where it looks pretty smoothed out, which is the only one of concern in my mind. But, I certainly can't hurt to get a plate of glass and check for flatness and probably sand the steels and fibers just to make sure. Thankfully, my company makes lighted mirrors, so bingo, found a 3/8" piece of plate glass.....let the fun begin!
Quote from: Screamin beagle on July 02, 2020, 11:12:43 AM
After banging my head against the wall with my hydraulic clutch doing the same as yours, it finally hit me...no not the wall. I never replaced the steel plates during any of my attempts at fixing my clutch. Visually they looked ok...a few showed a little bluing. I finally followed the manual and checked them for flatness. All but one were fine...just that one plate being a little bit out of whack wreaked havoc with the clutch. Replaced all of the steel plates and clutch works great.
Went through all of the plates on Thursday, checking flatness on a 3/8" of plate glass. I'm pretty sure a couple were on the razor's edge of the manual spec (.006") - but, I wanted to ride this weekend, so I buttoned it up after lapping all of the steels with some 320 grit on the glass. Left the fluid level *just* touching the basket - it was better, wouldn't drag nearly as consistently when it got hot, if at all.
Although I'm still getting the weird "freeplay" in the lever which goes away after a few seconds after shifts, and it's not in every gear, which is strange - so wondering if maybe my slave or master need to be rebuilt.
If I can scrape up enough coin (just spent a bunch of dough on suspension upgrades) I'll probably look at a new clutch pack from Alto or Barnett and see if that eliminates the dragging - maybe go back to a kit that uses the judder spring & spacer. If it doesn't then I'll consider the slave & master rebuilds this fall/winter.
We recently bought a 2018 police bike locally that was laid down on both sides late last year with only 2000 miles on it. There was a pinhole in the clutch line where it got dinged by the engine guard so I replaced the line and then the master cylinder wouldn't draw or push any fluid. Holes in the cylinder were clear. Put a rebuild kit in the master cylinder and no change. Replaced the complete master cylinder/clutch lever assembly with a new one and works fine. No idea what the real issue was.
Ugh - still dragging...again, and, still getting the slow return of hydraulic pressure to the lever creating virtual "freeplay". Will shift, then lever is sloppy for a few seconds, then the hydraulic pressure builds back and returns the lever to it's natural position.
I'm still at a loss - should I just get some replacement steels to eliminate the possibility of my current steels being warped, or does anybody have any insight into the slow return of the clutch lever - thus back to my original thought of a failing clutch master - I'm debating just rebuilding the darn thing, rebuild kits at cheap ($40), but I hate that I'm pretty much shotgunning parts at it.
I think if it's returning slowly as you say, there must be a buildup restriction preventing the fluid from returning into the MC and equalizing the system. It could be the slave cylinder or the master. I would expect the clutch pushrod has retracted because you don't say the clutch slips after a shift. That would indicate the slave cylinder is pushed back. IMO the most likely culprit is the master cylinder.
Quote from: kd on July 14, 2020, 08:15:12 AM
I think if it's returning slowly as you say, there must be a buildup restriction preventing the fluid from returning into the MC and equalizing the system. It could be the slave cylinder or the master. I would expect the clutch pushrod has retracted because you don't say the clutch slips after a shift. That would indicate the slave cylinder is pushed back. IMO the most likely culprit is the master cylinder.
Those are good points - seems that if the slave was failing, there should be throwout distance issues, and since it's not slipping, maybe the master cylinder piston is hanging up and takes time to return to position. I don't know if this is related to the clutch dragging though since my throwout measured up fairly well according to manual spec.
Two separate unrelated issues maybe? warped steels in the clutch with a sticky m/c? Do the fibers have a flatness spec as well or do those not matter as much when it comes to a dragging clutch?
Yes, there is a chance that the clutch discs have suffered from dragging. Both steels and fibers have to be true to release fully.
Quote from: kd on July 14, 2020, 12:44:15 PM
Yes, there is a chance that the clutch discs have suffered from dragging. Both steels and fibers have to be true to release fully.
Bummer, I was afraid of that - looking more and more like a new clutch kit and clutch master rebuild for me.....so is there a better option than the BDL (Energy One) extra plate kit? Alto carbonite? Barnett?
Welp, bit the bullet and got an Alto carbonite clutch kit, put it in this a.m. and gave it a test run- seems to be better, but haven't had the chance to get the plates nice and hot to see if it still drags. I will say the finding neutral after the short test ride was a breeze! Gonna give it a workout tomorrow and see what happens...
Hi folks, re-visiting this thread again - I rode out the summer with my dragging clutch after changing out my clutch pack to the Alto carbonite set, which then started slipping (even with using the heavy spring from the BDL clutch pack I removed), so went back to the BDL set and the creeping it had been exhibiting.
Now that winter has arrived, I want to try to solve this once and for all - here's the rundown of what has been done to date:
Currently have the original "dragging" BDL extra plate kit in.
- I rebuilt the clutch master cylinder in July - that solved the slow return issue with the clutch lever
- Removed BDL kit and with a 3/8" plate glass, sanded all fibers & steels using 220 grit - no change, then installed Alto kit, got slippage, so back to BDL
- Completely flushed clutch hydraulic fluid with new - have confirmed no air in system (have done this several times now.....ugh)
- Have verified that the throwout is within reasonable specs
- Have changed primary fluid a few times - first was running Formula +, then swapped to Spectro primary. Still dragging, so went with B & M trick-shift, no change. My final change for the summer was to a 10-40w dino oil in lieu of thicker formula + or Spectro primary fluid. It was still dragging with 10-40W oil near the end of the season.
As I see it, the items that I have not addressed to this point that could be potentially causing problems would be:
- Throwout bearing - if this is failing, can this cause clutch drag?
- Clutch slave cylinder - although the throwout measurements falling in spec contradict this being a problem source
- Clutch basket - I have not dusted the clutch basket tines with a file - but is there a reference as to what amount of wear could be a potential problem source?
- Clutch hub - no noticeable damage or wear the last time I was in there to swap out the Alto clutch kit back to the BDL extra plate kit. plates installed smoothly
- Clutch pack - maybe the BDL kit is flat-out just warped and I need to buy another new set? However, if this is the case, I think this time I'll get a standard kit configuration that uses the judder spring and seat - the Alto kit made use of the judder spring and seat and had a better feel to it than the BDL extra plate kit.
I can certainly shotgun a new clutch slave at this thing, as they're only about $150 for a new slave assembly ($200+ for the Muller), but would prefer not to- just looking for feedback on anything I may have overlooked.
TIA!