Hey guys,
Started the top end disassembly on the rear cylinder yesterday and was lucky to have one of those softail (1996 heritage) that has no clearance between the rocker box and the frame to get the buggar out... Finally managed to pull it free after an hour of some choice language....
Anyways , my question to you knowledgeable folk is the rocker arm removal.
I was supposed to have the cylinder at TDC but made thr rookie mistake and had the valves still half open instead of both fully closed, so there was still tension on the arm and the pushrods? ...... I then taped out the shaft with a long punch and a soft mallet and it came out but it definitely was not properly aligned - has any damage been done?
Is there anything I need to check?
Thanks, probably worried about nothing, but you always worry more when doing something for the first time. :SM:
Thanks.
[attach=0,msg1354304]
[attach=1,msg1354304]
I would not worry about it. Yes, rocker boxes and Softail Evo frames, some well thought out design there eh?
So, how you feel about adjustable push rods now?
:hyst:
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on July 09, 2020, 05:15:30 PM
I would not worry about it. Yes, rocker boxes and Softail Evo frames, some well thought out design there eh?
So, how you feel about adjustable push rods now?
:hyst:
-JW
Thanks JW.
This top end build has been quite a surprise so far. Thought I bought a stock heritage, but after getting it home found out it had a mikuni 42, then I removed the timing cover only to find a Crane-Hi4 ignition, then I removed the rocker box to pull the pushrods out and I discover they are ez adjustable already in there.....
So then I just had to know what cam was in there so I pulled it out and there was an EV46... I know it's probably got stock internals and stock compression because they used adjustable pushrods, so it's unlikely the top end was removed for pistons or headwork.
Very interesting, and the previous owe get said he knew nothing about any mods to the bike - it even has the old iem timing cover put back in place with rivets! No way I could tell.
What do I do with this EV46? I only have 9.5 comp pistons and an EV27 cam in my parts box...
Quotethen I removed the rocker box to pull the pushrods out and I discover they are ez adjustable already in there.....
well there's a lesson to be learnt there :SM:
QuoteI know it's probably got stock internals and stock compression because they used adjustable pushrods
not necessarily so, just smart using adjustable pushrods
Quote from: FSG on July 09, 2020, 11:34:41 PM
Quotethen I removed the rocker box to pull the pushrods out and I discover they are ez adjustable already in there.....
well there's a lesson to be learnt there :SM:
QuoteI know it's probably got stock internals and stock compression because they used adjustable pushrods
not necessarily so, just smart using adjustable pushrods
Hey FSG,
yup lesson to be learned. Don't think I'll get a second chance to benefit from it though as I don't see myself getting another bike for a very long time, if ever....
Whatever's in there, I sure hope they're not 9.5 pistons!! :hyst: Too late for a compression test.
Ev27 and 9.5:1 good combo
I had an ev-46 in my 1997 Bad Boy. Installed it with only crane HI4-E module, 44mm cv and bolted in back pressure drag pipes. Never a problem. Would I swap it out for the ev-27? Probably not
MIKE
Quote from: MikeL on July 10, 2020, 06:46:37 AM
I had an ev-46 in my 1997 Bad Boy. Installed it with only crane HI4-E module, 44mm cv and bolted in back pressure drag pipes. Never a problem. Would I swap it out for the ev-27? Probably not
MIKE
All about riding Style... I do Not use those Upper RPM's except on the Track!!!
A EV-46 is a top end cam. Stay on course with your EV-27, you will not be disappointed.
-JW
Adam, next time if you see adjustable pushrods in there, adjust slack in them before removing the shafts. :nix:
Quote from: cheech on July 10, 2020, 09:35:57 AM
Adam, next time if you see adjustable pushrods in there, adjust slack in them before removing the shafts. :nix:
Methinks the pushrod tubes were not opened before rocker removal.
I had an ev46 in my otherwise stock '95 Heritage, it is a fun cam, it will pull away from your friends with the 27, but it is a top end cam as mentioned, and requires running the gears out to get in the sweet spot. It will feel doggy at 55 mph in 5th gear when rolling on, but a quick downshift to 4th will get you going. Going down to 3rd is just plain fun.
Most will find the 27 a much better match for their riding style. Since you have the 27, install it.
Quote from: cheech on July 10, 2020, 09:35:57 AM
Adam, next time if you see adjustable pushrods in there, adjust slack in them before removing the shafts. :nix:
Hossamania - "Methinks the pushrod tubes were not opened before rocker removal"Yep, didn't check by pulling the pushrods tubes first :emoGroan:
Quote from: JW113 on July 10, 2020, 08:51:05 AM
A EV-46 is a top end cam. Stay on course with your EV-27, you will not be disappointed.
-JW
Yeah, I'm staying with the 27.... just wondered what the 46 would be like at 9.6 comp as an alternative option since I discovered I now have one. I would dare say it would probably need upwards of 10:1 to shine. I don't want to buy another set of high comp pistons!!
Cheers
You're overthinking it. All the 46 will do is move the power band up by 500 or so rpms, and 9.5:1 is fine. What the hell. You have two cams and adjustable push rods. Check 'em both out, then decide which one best fits how you're going to ride it. Don't take hardly an hour to swap a cam.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on July 10, 2020, 05:32:35 PM
You're overthinking it. All the 46 will do is move the power band up by 500 or so rpms, and 9.5:1 is fine. What the hell. You have two cams and adjustable push rods. Check 'em both out, then decide which one best fits how you're going to ride it. Don't take hardly an hour to swap a cam.
-JW
Man, you nailed it.. I'm am obsessive over- thinker. Sorry.
Can I blame my parents? :slap:
Check your ccp with each cam to see where you are
Quote from: 98fxstc on July 10, 2020, 10:00:15 PM
Check your ccp with each cam to see where you are
Why???
Run it... you will Know if you like it..
Quote from: Racepres on July 11, 2020, 07:59:51 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on July 10, 2020, 10:00:15 PM
Check your ccp with each cam to see where you are
Why???
Run it... you will Know if you like it..
Why not? Knowledge is power. If you don't like either one you'll have real evidence of the compression trait of the cams you tried to help you. A compression test takes less than 15 minutes.
One of my fav easy combos is a S&S 508 & mill the heads .050 (Approx. 9.5), Stock flat tops are 8.5 at best. Its a real stump puller & gets you some extra clearance for the rockers. Just turn .002" or so off the base for leveling, Cometic gaskets, new rings/ hone, and will work with a stock module (fresh coil), but a single fire system does wonders in a softail.
Quote from: kd on July 11, 2020, 08:36:42 AM
Quote from: Racepres on July 11, 2020, 07:59:51 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on July 10, 2020, 10:00:15 PM
Check your ccp with each cam to see where you are
Why???
Run it... you will Know if you like it..
Why not? Knowledge is power. If you don't like either one you'll have real evidence of the compression trait of the cams you tried to help you. A compression test takes less than 15 minutes.
:up:
Quote from: kd on July 11, 2020, 08:36:42 AM
Quote from: Racepres on July 11, 2020, 07:59:51 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on July 10, 2020, 10:00:15 PM
Check your ccp with each cam to see where you are
Why???
Run it... you will Know if you like it..
Why not? Knowledge is power. If you don't like either one you'll have real evidence of the compression trait of the cams you tried to help you. A compression test takes less than 15 minutes.
Thanks kd, that's not a bad idea.
Looks like I might have other problems though.
Took another look inside the camchest and saw some markings behind the pinion gear and also the oil pump pinion shaft gear?
Is this damage something to be concerned about?
Thanks
[attach=0,msg1354731]
[attach=1,msg1354731]
Quote from: 98fxstc on July 10, 2020, 10:00:15 PM
Check your ccp with each cam to see where you are
I will check ccp once I've put the ev27 in. Decided I'm not going to even try the 46 without headwork and even more compression, which isn't really in my plans right now.
Cheers
Can't quite see for sure, is that dirt or a cracked gear??
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on July 13, 2020, 10:02:29 AM
Can't quite see for sure, is that dirt or a cracked gear??
-JW
Thanks JW, it's not dirt I've wiped it clean. Looks like some of the surface metal has been sheared off?
I'll take another picture.
Another picture. Doesn't look too good to me?
If that oil pump driver gear is as it appears in the picture, yes, it is a problem. The bare minimum is the gear will have to be replaced. At the other end of the spectrum is a complete teardown. Have you looked inside the cavities in the oil pump where the gears turn?
Quote from: turboprop on July 13, 2020, 05:34:29 PM
If that oil pump driver gear is as it appears in the picture, yes, it is a problem. The bare minimum is the gear will have to be replaced. At the other end of the spectrum is a complete teardown. Have you looked inside the cavities in the oil pump where the gears turn?
Thanks turboprop. I haven't looked into the oil pump yet. Where exactly should I be looking?
Cheers
Quote from: Adam76 on July 13, 2020, 05:36:41 PM
Quote from: turboprop on July 13, 2020, 05:34:29 PM
If that oil pump driver gear is as it appears in the picture, yes, it is a problem. The bare minimum is the gear will have to be replaced. At the other end of the spectrum is a complete teardown. Have you looked inside the cavities in the oil pump where the gears turn?
Thanks turboprop. I haven't looked into the oil pump yet. Where exactly should I be looking?
Cheers
In the cavities where the gears turn.
The breather bore looks like crud was caught in it. How did the inside of the breather look? Was there metal in it on disassembly?
Quote from: turboprop on July 13, 2020, 05:48:45 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on July 13, 2020, 05:36:41 PM
Quote from: turboprop on July 13, 2020, 05:34:29 PM
If that oil pump driver gear is as it appears in the picture, yes, it is a problem. The bare minimum is the gear will have to be replaced. At the other end of the spectrum is a complete teardown. Have you looked inside the cavities in the oil pump where the gears turn?
Thanks turboprop. I haven't looked into the oil pump yet. Where exactly should I be looking?
Cheers
In the cavities where the gears turn.
Cavities, oil pump drive gear and shaft appear to be clean and in good condition.
It's more the oil pump pinion shaft gear that looks the problem?
Quote from: choseneasy on July 13, 2020, 06:06:23 PM
The breather bore looks like crud was caught in it. How did the inside of the breather look? Was there metal in it on disassembly?
Breather was good and clean.
Quote from: Adam76 on July 13, 2020, 08:17:43 PM
Quote from: turboprop on July 13, 2020, 05:48:45 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on July 13, 2020, 05:36:41 PM
Quote from: turboprop on July 13, 2020, 05:34:29 PM
If that oil pump driver gear is as it appears in the picture, yes, it is a problem. The bare minimum is the gear will have to be replaced. At the other end of the spectrum is a complete teardown. Have you looked inside the cavities in the oil pump where the gears turn?
Thanks turboprop. I haven't looked into the oil pump yet. Where exactly should I be looking?
Cheers
In the cavities where the gears turn.
Cavities, oil pump drive gear and shaft appear to be clean and in good condition.
It's more the oil pump pinion shaft gear that looks the problem?
There are four gears inside the oil pump in addition to the two that you see inside the came chest. The oil pump will have be removed in order to be inspected for particles and for damage to the pump body, cover and gears.
Quote from: turboprop on July 13, 2020, 08:36:33 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on July 13, 2020, 08:17:43 PM
Quote from: turboprop on July 13, 2020, 05:48:45 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on July 13, 2020, 05:36:41 PM
Quote from: turboprop on July 13, 2020, 05:34:29 PM
If that oil pump driver gear is as it appears in the picture, yes, it is a problem. The bare minimum is the gear will have to be replaced. At the other end of the spectrum is a complete teardown. Have you looked inside the cavities in the oil pump where the gears turn?
Thanks turboprop. I haven't looked into the oil pump yet. Where exactly should I be looking?
Cheers
In the cavities where the gears turn.
Cavities, oil pump drive gear and shaft appear to be clean and in good condition.
It's more the oil pump pinion shaft gear that looks the problem?
There are four gears inside the oil pump in addition to the two that you see inside the came chest. The oil pump will have be removed in order to be inspected for particles and for damage to the pump body, cover and gears.
Ok, thanks heaps for the advice. Didn't expect that after the bike has only done 20K....
Quote from: Adam76 on July 13, 2020, 09:31:42 PM
Ok, thanks heaps for the advice. Didn't expect that after the bike has only done 20K....
Problem with older bikes of that vintage is swapping in a low km speedo is very very easy.
The 92 FXR I bought only had 8900 km's on the speedo but the one on it previously had stopped working at 42k.......BUT riding without a speedo could have been going on for quite a while.
Unless you personally know the guy who bought it new you really have no way of knowing how many km's it's done.
Point in case mate owns a Harley tour ride thing here in Adelaide and racked up near 190,000 kms on his 2007 Road King but the bike still looked very very good because he took care of it. Sold it to a guy from Victoria who 1 month later had it for sale on Ebay with a speedo saying 26,000 kms.
Yes there are pricks out there who will screw you with a smile on their face as they pretend to be your best mate.
Quote from: Scotty on July 14, 2020, 01:12:40 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on July 13, 2020, 09:31:42 PM
Ok, thanks heaps for the advice. Didn't expect that after the bike has only done 20K....
Problem with older bikes of that vintage is swapping in a low km speedo is very very easy.
The 92 FXR I bought only had 8900 km's on the speedo but the one on it previously had stopped working at 42k.......BUT riding without a speedo could have been going on for quite a while.
Unless you personally know the guy who bought it new you really have no way of knowing how many km's it's done.
Point in case mate owns a Harley tour ride thing here in Adelaide and racked up near 190,000 kms on his 2007 Road King but the bike still looked very very good because he took care of it. Sold it to a guy from Victoria who 1 month later had it for sale on Ebay with a speedo saying 26,000 kms.
Yes there are pricks out there who will screw you with a smile on their face as they pretend to be your best mate.
Yeah, I know these things happen.... just never to me.
I just hope it's not as bad as it seems and I don't have to rebuild the bottom end. What kind of signs should I be looking for our checking to see whether it's a high like bike and I need to pull the motor out?
Thanks
I wouldn't jump down that rabbit hole just yet. You're already doing a top end, yes? After the jugs & pistons are pulled, see how tight the rods are on the crank pin. Should have very little side to side/up & down movement. If OK, then good to go.
It's possible the oil pump drive gear got damaged during assembly at the factory, or when the prior guy put the EV46 in it. About all you can do at this point is make sure any chips didn't end up scaring the inside of the oil pump. If it looks good, then replace that funky gear, and good to go. Don't fret it anymore than that. You'll need the special socket to get that pinion gear nut off.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on July 14, 2020, 08:14:07 AM
You'll need the special socket to get that pinion gear nut off.
-JW
:scratch: That has the hex pinion nut, not the 2 flat nut.
And to clear up, your first concern was the 2 markings behind the pinion gear and the oil pump gear?
I take it you were referring to these 2 paint assembly markings as I see them?
These circled?
No issue with those. :nix:
[attach=0,msg1354862]
And I guess Turboprop was referring to the oil pump gear having the "torn" wear to speak? Circled in the below.
[attach=1,msg1354862]
Quote from: Adam76 on July 14, 2020, 05:01:52 AM
Yeah, I know these things happen.... just never to me.
I just hope it's not as bad as it seems and I don't have to rebuild the bottom end. What kind of signs should I be looking for our checking to see whether it's a high like bike and I need to pull the motor out?
Thanks
At this point I would just change out that that gear and make sure pump is clear and no damage to teeth and run it.
I was just pointing out that maybe it has a few more k's than what you realise but why worry about that now as you own it.
Quote from: JW113 on July 14, 2020, 08:14:07 AM
I wouldn't jump down that rabbit hole just yet. You're already doing a top end, yes? After the jugs & pistons are pulled, see how tight the rods are on the crank pin. Should have very little side to side/up & down movement. If OK, then good to go.
It's possible the oil pump drive gear got damaged during assembly at the factory, or when the prior guy put the EV46 in it. About all you can do at this point is make sure any chips didn't end up scaring the inside of the oil pump. If it looks good, then replace that funky gear, and good to go. Don't fret it anymore than that. You'll need the special socket to get that pinion gear nut off.
-JW
Thanks JW, I was starting to stress.
Oil pump disassembly and check is next on the list.
Thanks again for the help.
Quote from: cheech on July 14, 2020, 09:05:19 AM
And to clear up, your first concern was the 2 markings behind the pinion gear and the oil pump gear?
I take it you were referring to these 2 paint assembly markings as I see them?
These circled?
No issue with those. :nix:
[attach=0,msg1354862]
And I guess Turboprop was referring to the oil pump gear having the "torn" wear to speak? Circled in the below.
[attach=1,msg1354862]
Hey cheech, yes those first two markings/ scratches you circled were actually the first things I was concerned about - it is like the surface/ coating of the metal has been chipped off..... But if you think there is no problem there that is good news.
Cheers
Quote from: cheech on July 14, 2020, 08:58:37 AM
Quote from: JW113 on July 14, 2020, 08:14:07 AM
You'll need the special socket to get that pinion gear nut off.
-JW
:scratch: That has the hex pinion nut, not the 2 flat nut.
Thanks cheech, does this nut take a normal socket and undo lefty loosy?
I think I mis-spoke. I see that you have a hex nut on there. Me sooooo sorry....
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on July 14, 2020, 08:06:27 PM
I think I mis-spoke. I see that you have a hex nut on there. Me sooooo sorry....
-JW
😁😁 all good.
Quote from: Adam76 on July 14, 2020, 04:33:45 PM
Thanks cheech, does this nut take a normal socket and undo lefty loosy?
Yes Sir.
Quote from: cheech on July 14, 2020, 09:05:19 AM
And to clear up, your first concern was the 2 markings behind the pinion gear and the oil pump gear?
I take it you were referring to these 2 paint assembly markings as I see them?
Yes cheech, my bad. After giving them a clean they eventually came off, so obviously paint marks. :doh:
Quote from: JW113 on July 14, 2020, 08:14:07 AM
I wouldn't jump down that rabbit hole just yet. You're already doing a top end, yes? After the jugs & pistons are pulled, see how tight the rods are on the crank pin. Should have very little side to side/up & down movement. If OK, then good to go.
** I did have a quick look at that and one of the rods has a bit of play side to side... more than I would have expected. I'll have to measure it?
It's possible the oil pump drive gear got damaged during assembly at the factory, or when the prior guy put the EV46 in it.
-JW
** Yes, first thing on the list is replacement of that oil pump drive gear.
Quote from: Scotty on July 14, 2020, 12:43:08 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on July 14, 2020, 05:01:52 AM
Yeah, I know these things happen.... just never to me.
I just hope it's not as bad as it seems and I don't have to rebuild the bottom end. What kind of signs should I be looking for our checking to see whether it's a high like bike and I need to pull the motor out?
Thanks
At this point I would just change out that that gear and make sure pump is clear and no damage to teeth and run it.
I was just pointing out that maybe it has a few more k's than what you realise but why worry about that now as you own it.
Thanks Scotty.
When looking at the oil pump, what is the procedure? Just pull it off, have a good look inside for wear or chips on the gears and any debris and put it back together? I'm assuming I need new gaskets.
Thanks
Quote from: Adam76 on July 17, 2020, 04:02:20 AM
I did have a quick look at that and one of the rods has a bit of play side to side... more than I would have expected. I'll have to measure it?
The front (knife) will be have more side to side than the rear (fork), that is normal. If the rear has much side to side wiggle, then measure it. But what I do for a quick check is to pull up on the rod with one hand, and pound the top of it with the other hand. If you can feel any movement (i.e. knocking against the crank pin) it might have too much roller clearance from wear. Usually you can feel no movement at all. But the reality is, these roller bottom ends, if not abused and maintained well, last a long, long time.
-JW
Quote from: Adam76 on July 17, 2020, 04:06:57 AM
When looking at the oil pump, what is the procedure? Just pull it off, have a good look inside for wear or chips on the gears and any debris and put it back together? I'm assuming I need new gaskets.
I'm going to inject some unsolicited opinion here. So take it for what it's worth...
I'll be the first to say that working on the oil pump with the engine in the frame is a total pain in the arse. Getting the C clips off, and back on, especially that outer one but also the inner, is a serious exercise in frustration. Yes, that drive gear looked a little odd, but did not look "shredded" to me. I would replace it "just because", but I don't think I'd bother with the oil pump. As far as you can recall, were there any oil pump related systems when the bike was running? I'm guessing no.
If there were a few small chips that came off that drive gear, they would have gotten sucked up by the scavenge pump and may or may not have scratched the cavity up a little as they passed through, and then ended up in the oil filter. A few small scratches are not going to affect the function of the pump to any degree to worry about. I've seen some pretty trashed oil pump cavities, and if the pump had not been taken apart, you would have never known anything was wrong.
Anyway, your call. If you decide to go for it, you won't enjoy it...
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on July 17, 2020, 08:29:05 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on July 17, 2020, 04:02:20 AM
I did have a quick look at that and one of the rods has a bit of play side to side... more than I would have expected. I'll have to measure it?
The front (knife) will be have more side to side than the rear (fork), that is normal. If the rear has much side to side wiggle, then measure it. But what I do for a quick check is to pull up on the rod with one hand, and pound the top of it with the other hand. If you can feel any movement (i.e. knocking against the crank pin) it might have too much roller clearance from wear. Usually you can feel no movement at all. But the reality is, these roller bottom ends, if not abused and maintained well, last a long, long time.
-JW
The way I check also... pull and smack... no "clunk" good to go...Tougher than a ten inch tiger turd!!!!
Quote from: Adam76 on July 17, 2020, 04:06:57 AM
When looking at the oil pump, what is the procedure? Just pull it off, have a good look inside for wear or chips on the gears and any debris and put it back together? I'm assuming I need new gaskets.
Thanks
Based on some other posts here I realise your engine is still in the frame...........my bad I thought you had pulled it out.
Oil pump in frame is quite a job and if you don't have good circlip pliers and a steady hand along with good eyesight that cam chest one is a real bitch to do.
You have to hold your tongue in just the right position as well.
Here is a photo that shows you just where it has to go and this is with a completely empty cam chest.
[attach=0,msg1355270]
When you replace the circlip Scotty has in the picture, be ABSOLUTLY sure that it isn't SPREAD so far that the key can fly out when running. :angry: Also installation is easier, if you remove the rear cover on the oil pump, and finesse the rod to the circlip.
John
Also do not install the pump drive gear on the crank until you have tightened the oil pump.
This way you can verify the oil pump stack is well aligned and the pump spins easily with your fingers.
If the pump won't spin easy with fingers, loosen the pump bolts and reposition the pump, retighten and retest.
Repeat until the pump spins freely.
Your pump will thank you....