Charging system question.

[Paniolo]

2006 CVO Ultra
98K miles
Previous owner said he replaced the stator at 25K.

I went out for a ride today and made it as far as the gas station. Suddenly the engine and battery indicators came on. I rode home and the volt meter was reading 11 volts. It threw code P0562 - low votage to the ECM. I took the seat off and checked the battery terminals. Then using my multi-meter I checked the battery. Sitting the battery read 12.23. With the engine running it read 11.5. I'm thinking it's stator time again.

My question is:

The shop I use is 39 miles away at about 45 mins ride time. With the battery fully charged (2 year old Drag Specialties battery), can I make it there before the bike dies out?

Would I be doing anymore damage by riding it there?

Thanks

[Rusticwater]

Have you checked the stator output?

[Slider1950]

I don't think you can make it to your dealer before the battery goes dead. As far as doing additional damage I don't think that's a problem as long as you don't have an overflow situation. Which you don't.

[Paniolo]

Have you checked the stator output?

Forgive my rudimentary knowledge here, but I thought that's what I was doing at the battery terminals with the multimeter.

[Rusticwater]

Forgive my rudimentary knowledge here, but I thought that's what I was doing at the battery terminals with the multimeter.

Stator>Regulator>Battery
Regulator could be bad...

[kd]

Check your manual and follow the stator output test.  It takes the regulator out of the system and allows it too put out full charge controlled  by the RPM.  The manual gives suitable parameters and further tests for grounded, shorted or open windings.  The tests are easy and give you good information to make decisions.  The manual is pretty good in this area.

[Tynker]

2006 CVO Ultra
98K miles
Previous owner said he replaced the stator at 25K.

I went out for a ride today and made it as far as the gas station. Suddenly the engine and battery indicators came on. I rode home and the volt meter was reading 11 volts. It threw code P0562 - low votage to the ECM. I took the seat off and checked the battery terminals. Then using my multi-meter I checked the battery. Sitting the battery read 12.23. With the engine running it read 11.5. I'm thinking it's stator time again.

My question is:

The shop I use is 39 miles away at about 45 mins ride time. With the battery fully charged (2 year old Drag Specialties battery), can I make it there before the bike dies out?

Would I be doing anymore damage by riding it there?

Thanks

If you pull the headlight fuse, you can ride just about all day on the fully charged battery.

[smoserx1]

If you pull the headlight fuse, you can ride just about all day on the fully charged battery.

It will certainly give you a better chance of getting there.  Once I was in a car whee the alternator failed about 90 miles from home.  On the way back the fan motor quit then the radio got soft and distorted then quit.  The horn quit.  Finally the power got so low that if I tried to activate a turn signal I could feel the engine falter but even after that I went another 20 miles or so and decided I better stop and get the battery charged.  This was before ECMs in vehicles, but that headlight (especially a halogen one) will draw far more power than the ignition.  Pop off your inspection or derby cover and smell inside the primary for a burnt odor.

[kd]

I smoked a stator in Creston BC one year.  There was a dealer in Cranbrook just over 100 KM away. I charged the battery with a loaner charger and pulled the headlamp and tail lamp circuits.  I rode back the 100 km's, got a room across from the dealer and the next morning started the bike and rode it over. There was no sign of laboring the next day when started.

[Paniolo]

I smoked a stator in Creston BC one year.  There was a dealer in Cranbrook just over 100 KM away. I charged the battery with a loaner charger and pulled the headlamp and tail lamp circuits.  I rode back the 100 km's, got a room across from the dealer and the next morning started the bike and rode it over. There was no sign of laboring the next day when started.

Okay,

So the consensus is that I can ride there if I pull the headlight fuse. However, will doing so cause more damage? In other words if it's just the regulator, would I not burn up the stator too by riding it? If the stator is bad, then it needs to be replaced. But if ONLY the regulator is bad, will continuing to ride damage the stator?

The regulator is a simple plug in device. The stator requires pulling the primary cover, clutchpack and compensator.

Thanks

[kd]

Getting at it with a multi meter and doing the system checks will answer that for you.  The tests are simple and well explained if you are worried about not making it through them competently.  You may even find you can fix it easily.

If the stator is toast and not putting out with the regulator out of the system (one of the tests) you can run it without those concerns.  If it's the regulator, simply swap it out yourself.   

[chaos901]

Pop off your inspection or derby cover and smell inside the primary for a burnt odor.

The multi-meter and the tests are by far the best direction, but if the stator is bad it almost always has a strong burnt odor that you can smell if you take off the derby cover. 

[Rusticwater]

Assuming you've already checked all your connections...

You've asked is there a possibility that riding it will cause harm...the short answer is yes, that possibility exists...

If your alternator failed, what made it fail? Yes, it's possible that "something" let loose and took out the stator. If there is loose "stuff" flinging around the inside of the primary, what else might they damage?

Pull the derby cover and smell inside, when your stator fries itself it makes an unmistakable smell.

Before thinking about riding it anywhere the first thing I would do is perform a stator test (continuity to ground) then an AC output test. All you do is unplug the stator plug from the regulator for these tests.

If your manual doesn't cover how to do these 2 tests (I think my service manual does not, but my electrical diagnostic manual does) just mention it and someone will chime in. If you have a VOM, they're very simple and only take about 10 minutes total.

If both those things check out then you've ruled out the alternator (stator and rotor combined). Bad things have been known to happen to the rotor too, which could result in loose parts flinging around in the primary.

If the alternator checks out OK, it only takes about 5 minutes to swap out the regulator. Disconnect the input plug and the output plug, unbolt it, and install a new one.

[Paniolo]

Thanks guys, I also found this very helpful video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4gzfjFS3Jg

I'll run these checks when I git home.

[jamminhd2000]

http://cycleelectricinc.com
Lots of great info here....jimmy

[Paniolo]

Pop off your inspection or derby cover and smell inside the primary for a burnt odor.

The multi-meter and the tests are by far the best direction, but if the stator is bad it almost always has a strong burnt odor that you can smell if you take off the derby cover.

Help me out here guys, please.

I pulled the derby cover, and it did not smell like all the other stators I burned up on my '01. However, it could be that it's just not burned up completely. I set my multimeter to ohms, and checked it against itself to confirm a zero reading for continuity. Then I checked each of the plug wires for the three phase connector. They all read zero. Then I checked the three-phase connector against the ground. I put one end in the connector, and the other on a cam chest bolt It also read zero. Am I to believe now that the stator is good?

Am I doing this correctly?

[smoserx1]

Your meter is set on the 2000K range.  Don't you want the 200 ohm range?

[Paniolo]

Your meter is set on the 2000K range.  Don't you want the 200 ohm range?

Once again, pardon my lack of knowledge and unfamiliarity. I just thought Ohms was ohms. I will check it again set to 200.

Anything else?

[Coyote]

Your stator passed those tests. Now go to ACV and start the bike and measure the AC volts from each of the 3 windings.

[smoserx1]

Once again, pardon my lack of knowledge and unfamiliarity. I just thought Ohms was ohms. I will check it again set to 200.

You are fine.  That range is just sort of like trying to read 35 MPH on a speedometer with a 10000 MPH range.  OTOH the "1" (infinity) on that range guarantees you don't have leakage.  For your voltage test choose the 200 ACV range,

[Paniolo]

Your stator passed those tests. Now go to ACV and start the bike and measure the AC volts from each of the 3 windings.

Okay,

I set my meter to a ACV.  I put prongs in two of the three holes for the three phase connector.  Then I started the bike. At idle, the meter read 15. At 2500 rpm's it read 19 to 20.

What do you think?

[Rusticwater]

 [attach=0]

[Coyote]

Check all three combinations.
1-2
1-3
2-3

Your first test looks low.

[Paniolo]

Check all three combinations.
1-2
1-3
2-3

Your first test looks low.

Okay, second round of checking complete. I performed checks on all three combinations. The results were similar. At idle I got 15-17, and at 2000rpms 28-30.

What do you think?

[Coyote]

So which is it? It will make more voltage the higher the rpm

and at 2000rpms 28-30.

At 2500 rpm's it read 19 to 20.

[Paniolo]

So which is it? It will make more voltage the higher the rpm

and at 2000rpms 28-30.

At 2500 rpm's it read 19 to 20.

I tested it again. At 2500 rpms it was 28-32.

[Coyote]

Its lower than HD says it should be, right?

[Billy]

So which is it? It will make more voltage the higher the rpm

and at 2000rpms 28-30.

At 2500 rpm's it read 19 to 20.

I tested it again. At 2500 rpms it was 28-32.

Too low. Pull the primary cover and check the compensator nut, I'll bet it's loose and the splines on the rotor are striped out.

[smoserx1]

I read an article from Cycle Electric suggesting the waveform of some of these charging systems is not a true sine wave and if that is the case you only get an accurate ACV reading using a true RMS meter.  I can pretty much guarantee you the one you are showing in the picture is not that.  I have one that looks just like it with a different brand name on it.  Every test you have made on that stator suggests to me it is OK.  Your isolation test showed infinite resistance using a 2 meghom range ((2000K)and that is the best range to use for that test)).  Your resistance test showed little value on the same range (the 200 ohm range would have given you a better reading on that one)and your ACV is showing a value close to specification using a meter with questionable accuracy on that function.  Finally you noticed no unusual odor coming from your primary.  I would be focusing on your regulator at this point.

[Paniolo]

you only get an accurate ACV reading using a true RMS meter.  I can pretty much guarantee you the one you are showing in the picture is not that.  I would be focusing on your regulator at this point.

No, it's not an RMS meter, it's a $20 multi-meter from the local auto parts store. And to be honest, I really am not getting all the use out of it other than checking ohm resistance and voltage.

Moving forward, how do I check the regulator?

[smoserx1]

Moving forward, how do I check the regulator?

Best way I know would be to unplug the output and test fot DC voltage.  Use the 20VDC range on that meter and see what you get (with the stator connected of course).  Looks like the connections are on the bottom of the regulator, round 3 pin connector for the stator and rectangular 2 pin for the DC output.  All I have is a digital copy of a 2006 touring manual and it does not go into testing specifics.  I know on mine (single phase) there is a backfeed test you can do with a test lamp, but I bet of you measure the DC output and get something lower than 14 volts it is bad.  Remember the regulator output voltage must be greater than the battery voltage to charge the battery, and your previous preliminary test (battery voltage < 12V while  running) suggests otherwise.  Good luck!!!

[Rusticwater]

I tested it again. At 2500 rpms it was 28-32.

Its lower than HD says it should be, right?

Should be higher. I'd want to get a closer look inside at the alternator directly. Not saying the regulator isn't bad too, but the voltage output is low for that rpm. For peace of mind I'd want to lay eyes on what's going on inside...

Too low. Pull the primary cover and check the compensator nut, I'll bet it's loose and the splines on the rotor are striped out.

As Billy mentioned, the rotor splines being stripped is a distinct possibility.

Moving forward, how do I check the regulator?

You've already tested the output, didn't you? 11.5V back in your first post?

Please don't take this the wrong way but it sounds like you've convinced yourself there's nothing wrong with the alternator...but your own tests say otherwise...

[Paniolo]

Please don't take this the wrong way but it sounds like you've convinced yourself there's nothing wrong with the alternator...but your own tests say otherwise...

I'm not convinced of anything, just trying to do what I can to troubleshoot. Now I can drain and pull the outer primary cover off, however that's about the limit of my current ability. By that I mean I do not have a primary locking tool, and I don't have a long 1/2" breaker bar and impact sockets to remove the compensator nut and clutch pack. For that I will have to go to my shop.

Once again, my attempts to diagnose the problem stemmed from wanting to know if I could ride my bike to the shop, or if I should trailer it.

Mark

[fbn ent]

How far is the shop?

[Paniolo]

How far is the shop?

It's about 39 miles at 45 mins riding time.

[tdrglide]

If I were you and I owned a trailer, I'd trailer it. Otherwise I would pull the headlight fuse. Start it with a fully charged, known good battery and ride it to the shop. Don't forget to bring your cellphone. Have someone follow you.
Or you could swap in a new voltage regulator and see. Sounds like you are not anxious to pull the comp and clutch out.

[truck]

I did about that length of ride on an Fuel injected Ultra. I disabled the lighting and started with a full charge. I did have a back up plan though. I duct taped a lawn tractor battery to the passenger foot board in case I needed a Jump.

[Phu Cat]

If it turns out your stator IS bad, if you can afford it, have a Cycle Lectrics stator put in.  Yep, you'll pay more but it'll be the last new stator you'll ever need.  (If you can hold the new stator in your hand before it's installed and you can see the old one, you'll see how much better insulated the new one is.)

PC

[Coyote]

All the troubleshooting in the world isn't going to tell you whether or not you can go 39 miles. Either take your chances or you don't. 

[kd]

If you've got loose magnets or some other physical damage causing your problem, riding it might get ugly.  If you ride it and find serious issues that mean you can't ride back what will you do?  Call a cab or Uber?  I'd trailer it.

[Rusticwater]

Now I can drain and pull the outer primary cover off, however that's about the limit of my current ability. By that I mean I do not have a primary locking tool, and I don't have a long 1/2" breaker bar and impact sockets to remove the compensator nut and clutch pack. For that I will have to go to my shop.

Once again, my attempts to diagnose the problem stemmed from wanting to know if I could ride my bike to the shop, or if I should trailer it.

Understood. And I personally wouldn't want to attempt it without having a jack or lift of some sort, I don't know if you do.

But last year at this time I never dreamed of pulling the primary, then last September I ended up having to pull it twice. In the process I learned something about my bike that was beneficial for the entire forum (see my post about shifter shaft seals with the photo comparisons and special installation instructions).

I didn't use any impact tools at all, I don't have any and I didn't need them. I did have a locking bar (and you do want to use the bar type to lock the comp as opposed to a wedge) but in a pinch a suitable length of hardwood would suffice. A breaker bar is a trip to Home Depot, Tractor Supply, whatever.

At that time I had the primary off, curiosity got the best of me and I removed the rotor to have a look see. Good thing I did because I discovered something.

Ever pull your primary drain plug and see a little "sludge" on it? That same stuff accumulates inside your rotor in the gaps between the individual magnets. Over time, that sludge in the gaps will degrade the effect of the magnetic fields. Weaker magnetic fields, weaker electrical output. Magnets naturally decay over time too and heat hastens the process, but I digress.

As that sludge builds up it can affect the clearances between the stator and the rotor. Remember the rotor is 'rotating' at engine rpm around a 'stationary' stator. The sludge buildup can get to the point where something is going to come into contact with something else then bad things begin to happen, like an insulation failure and a short. So I used contact cleaner and Q-tips and cleaned it all out. I gave the stator a good bath with contact cleaner as well, not that it needed it but why not since I was in there.

Anyway, your CVO is a wonderful bike and out of an abundance of caution I suggest you don't run the engine any more than absolutely necessary until this is resolved...

[Paniolo]

If you've got loose magnets or some other physical damage causing your problem, riding it might get ugly.

Sounds like good advice. Gonna trailer it to the shop.

[fbn ent]

If it turns out your stator IS bad, if you can afford it, have a Cycle Lectrics stator put in.  Yep, you'll pay more but it'll be the last new stator you'll ever need.  (If you can hold the new stator in your hand before it's installed and you can see the old one, you'll see how much better insulated the new one is.)

PC

[tdrglide]

If you are worried about it, trailer it. You've been around awhile. That said, if you do not have any rotor/magnet problems (do you hear any primary comp noise? ) the bike will go the 39mi to the shop on a fully charged battery with the headlight fuse pulled. I've done it on a weak battery.
I agree about  CE

[JW113]

So much for Harley riders and adventure!


Charge the battery and ride to the dealer if you aren't able to fix it yourself. It will be fine. And after reading the above, I'd say your regulator is bad.

-JW

[Coyote]

So much for Harley riders and adventure!
And after reading the above, I'd say your regulator is bad.

-JW

I agree. I think this whole thread has two things going on. I looked up the specs on the DVM he's using. It's rated to read ACV up to 450 hz. He's taking measurements at 2500 rpm so it's way outside the meters cal range. That's likely why it's reading low.

The regulator is an easy swap and I suspect will fix the issue.

[Hossamania]

I would also just swap the regulator and retest.

[Paniolo]

So much for Harley riders and adventure!

Well my last Ultra stranded me 3 times with fried stators, one of which required pushing it across the Utah high desert floor at altitude and 100 degree heat. So forgive me if my "sense of adventure" is not as lively as you would like,....LOL!!!

[Paniolo]

I would also just swap the regulator and retest.

That may be my next step.

[FSG]

I did have a back up plan though. I duct taped a lawn tractor battery to the passenger foot board in case I needed a Jump.

   

[JW113]

One of my favorite little anechdotal stories.... Was on a road trip to Albuquerque, and somewhere in Arizona, Holbrook I think, met a group of three dudes that had ridden down from Alaska. One guy had lost his stator somewhere on the way, so they just kept going. They would stop every 100 miles-ish and get a flash charge at a gas station. He had straped a small DVM to his dash and used for a "fuel gauge", when the volts dropped a bit they'd fill'er up. Didn't plan to fix the stator until they got back home! If you think about it, the coil only draws 2 amps if that, and how many amp/hours is a Harley battery?

-JW

[fbn ent]

I'm pretty sure these new fangled injected units draw more but I could be wrong....

[Paniolo]

If it turns out your stator IS bad, if you can afford it, have a Cycle Lectrics stator put in.  Yep, you'll pay more but it'll be the last new stator you'll ever need. 

Is this the one you're talking about?

[nibroc]

that's the one and get a cycle electric voltage regulator too!!!!!!!!!!

[Y2KRKNG]

Be ready for a $1500 estimate for something that would take even a dummy shade-tree mechanic like myself about an hour to do.

[fbn ent]

Yep....gather the tools and have at it....

[tdrglide]

I've replaced a few stators over the years. Took me a bit more than an hour though. But my rates a are really low cause I work really slow. . 

I rode my 03 RG home once with a burned out stator. Less than 12v on gauge after I jump started it. By the time I got home volt gauge on dash showed a little less than 10v, it was still running. Fuel injected too. That was probably the limit tho. Replaced the battery too. It was maybe 5 years old.

[Paniolo]

Yep....gather the tools and have at it....

I'll plan for that next time, although hopefully with a Cycle Electric stator, there won't be a next time.

But I'm gonna let a shop do it as I am having other work done too. I'm going to have the brass transmission shifter shaft bushing replaced. It's the one that's pressed into the transmission case that the shifter shaft pass through. All that requires the primary to be pulled so, there's the labor for the stator.