HarleyTechTalk

FSG, I thought I was crazy or losing my mind or something.  But I was telling my local Indy about such a retaining plate that I thought I had seen in the past while inside a cam chest.  I was not sure if I was dreaming it up, but this is what I was looking for.  Thanks!!!  I'll try to find one out there.  This would be so easy to install in the casing because the position of the bolts is not that critical. 

QuoteThis would be so easy to install in the casing because the position of the bolts is not that critical.

if there's no real estate in the case for the screws to go using one of these plates then just drill new holes in the plate

Quote from: FSG on January 03, 2018, 05:56:11 PM

QuoteThis would be so easy to install in the casing because the position of the bolts is not that critical.

if there's no real estate in the case for the screws to go using one of these plates then just drill new holes in the plate

Exactly what I was thinking too.  I could drill anywhere in those plates and not have to worry about getting too close to the edge of the bearing bore.

Now, my only challenge is to find one of those plates.

Maybe just make your own plate.

Quote from: les on January 01, 2018, 10:35:48 AM

Quote from: Doodad on December 31, 2017, 04:10:17 PM
Think I'd skip the confusion and go this route. One stop shopping.

http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?PHPSESSID=97c50010706800b33ae6fcdf14c8b2f6&topic=101953.0

My goal continues to be (each and every year) to perform more and more procedures without leaving my garage.  This year I was able to do the case boring without having to step foot outside my garage.  Actually, I only care about the end result maybe about 50%.  The other 50% is the journey getting there; without that I wouldn't even be doing it.  Sounds not a whole lot different than riding.

Man, I totally get that, Les.  My hat is off to you for getting as far as you have.  I would love to add a lathe and start building a collection of machines in my 'shop' but thats some big $$.  However I agree for those of us who do not have the technical knowledge and/or correct machinery ...send it out, got to.  Kirby has been an incredible help to me with my builds but there is nothing so satisfying as doing it all with your own hands.  Stay the course, Les. 

Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 04, 2018, 05:58:12 AM
Maybe just make your own plate.

  That would be a very easy piece to fabricate with minimal tools required. Nice little piece of SS to keep the thickness down.  Bob

It might be kind of cool to have one of these that is a complete circle with a thicker part that hangs over and into the bearing bore just enough to get within 1/32" from the outside race of the roller bearing.  The item could have three holes and could be positioned in any orientation for the drilled holes (can pick where you want to drill).

Quote from: les on January 04, 2018, 08:50:14 AM
It might be kind of cool to have one of these that is a complete circle with a thicker part that hangs over and into the bearing bore just enough to get within 1/32" from the outside race of the roller bearing.  The item could have three holes and could be positioned in any orientation for the drilled holes (can pick where you want to drill).

Easy enough to make on a lathe from some round stock bore it and machine a step for the recess then part it off. What ever floats your boat.  Bob

Quote from: FXDBI on January 04, 2018, 08:56:39 AM

Quote from: les on January 04, 2018, 08:50:14 AM
It might be kind of cool to have one of these that is a complete circle with a thicker part that hangs over and into the bearing bore just enough to get within 1/32" from the outside race of the roller bearing.  The item could have three holes and could be positioned in any orientation for the drilled holes (can pick where you want to drill).

Easy enough to make on a lathe from some round stock bore it and machine a step for the recess then part it off. What ever floats your boat.  Bob

The advantage of these type of retainers is that the builder would not need any fancy machining processes for the groove.  Only to drill and tap three screw holes right in the middle of the bearing bore; could be done by anyone with simple hand tools.

If you want to use a full circle retainer plate, just use a Small Block Ford cam retainer plate.

I just was out in the garage for a check fit on a spare case. Plenty of meat in case for this.

Grind off the oil transfer slot, drill/tap your holes and you are in business. I'll send you one if you want it.

https://performanceparts.ford.com/images/part/full/M-6269-A302.jpg

make sure the positioning of any screws isn't going to have the protruding heads interfere with the oil pump

Low head button head screws.

I suggest not using a fine pitch thread either.

Thread sizes under 5/16 in. simply don't have enough material purchase to clamp effectively in cast aluminum.

Use a course pitch thread for these smaller sizes.

Just an FYI - we have those B-model retaining plates if you would choose to use them for $5.55 retail (we use retaining plates in all B-models) although the best way for 03' - 12' A-models (our opinion) is to cut a groove for retaining clip.  We have been utilizing a clip we engineered for cases quite a while ago with our Timken conversion sleeve without failure, when we perform Timken upgrades on A-models.  Later cases with button head allens do not have enough area to install groove or clip, but so far we have not witnessed issue with OE button heads.  H-D knew there was a failure rate and that is why they ended up going back to a retention method but engineered crankcase to use less aluminum and had to go that direction.

You will see more lateral forces on the pinion side main bearing when they are converted to Timkens as the left side is then captured putting all the lateral force to right side.  It happens on non-upgraded crankcases also, otherwise H-D would not have added a process and parts to their crankcases. Not nearly as often, but run-outs can be a major player along with steel inserts that have come loose in crankcase.

Thanks, John
Darkhorse Crankworks

Great info John, thanks for posting here.

For HTT and the pros that take time to post for us.

It looks like the b-motor retainers use the same screws as the piston jets (68042-99).  Those seem kind of small for that application.

Quote from: les on January 03, 2018, 09:41:06 AM

Quote from: CarlosGGodfrog on January 03, 2018, 09:29:41 AM
I just had a 117 build done on 2002 B cases. It had the holes, but no bearing retainer. They have been obsoleted, but we found one at a dealer, and was able to use it. I made a photo copy of it if you are interested. I'll have to look for it.

Heck yes I'm interested!

The round object is a penny for size.
[attach=0]

Quote from: les on January 04, 2018, 07:22:06 PM
It looks like the b-motor retainers use the same screws as the piston jets (68042-99).  Those seem kind of small for that application.

68042-99      SCREW NO. 8-32 X 3/8   TORX HEAD

Currently, I'm working with a machinist friend to develop a one-piece plate/insert that would be held with five #10-24 flathead screws as a preventative device to keep the pinion bearing from walking.  The device is similar to a Timken conversion insert, but has a 2 - 3 thou clearance slip fit and of course does not go in very deep into the bearing bore (planning for about a 1/32" gap between bearing wall and device).  The flat plate portion will circular, go to the outside of the bearing bore, and need to be shaped because of the irregular shape of the bearing bore.  Naturally, holes will need to be drilled and tapped using an extended longer #25 drill bit.  I will post pictures if I end up going this route after I perform my final modifications to the device and first hand observe how it makes me feel about using it.

On a slightly different note, one thing I noticed is that the Timken bearing set middle cone spacer ring (not used when doing the conversion insert) fits perfectly around the wall of the stock pinion bearing.  Since my right case half is at the machinist I can't tell if the thickness of the spacer ring is too thick (would stick up past the edge of the bearing bore) to potentially be used with screws and a couple of modified 00-02 Softail bearing retainers.  Specifically, getting two Softail retainers, modifying them, using the Timken spacer, and having two modified half circle Softail retainer plates hold the Timken spacer in place and against the outer bearing wall.

So, here is what I'm starting with.  I've got some work to do with shaping the OD of the flat and locating the five screw holes.

The ID of the device fits loosely around the bearing.  I don't have the lefty bearing in yet, so we'll when that gets here.

The back of the device.

The front of the device.

 

You may need to skim cut that surface the retainer sits on in the case. Just to make sure it's flat.

Quote from: mike jesse on January 10, 2018, 11:08:20 AM
You may need to skim cut that surface the retainer sits on in the case. Just to make sure it's flat.

My machinist friend brought that up too, so I would not mind a discussion on this topic.  I'll start...

I declined his recommendation.  The reason is that one of the main things I'm wanting to accomplish with this device is to enable a person to install it without any special machining equipment and/or machining skills.  In other words, be able to install the device with normal tools found in the typical Harley garage (drill, tap, etc).  Another point...although the device might not sit perfectly flat (like a Timken insert on the machined surface of the left side casing), I think it will still work well.  The reason I say that is because if you look at the Softail retaining plate, it only sits on one side of the bearing.  It doesn't even go all the way around.  The device goes all the way around and actually acts as a much better bearing stop.  So, wherever it makes contact with the bearing (if it does walk), that will be it; the bearing will stop moving.  This is the reason I'm planning on using five 10-24 flathead screws, spaced apart as evenly as I can possibly get them.  Also, using #10 screws to not weaken the bearing bore wall too much (i.e., using 1/4"-20 screws).  Bottom line: If I was going to have the engine casing machined, I would have gone with the groove and big old snap ring.  (In fact, I bought one of those when I was looking at all the possible options.)  My goal is to create something that can assure the bearing won't walk out, and is something folks can do in their garage without any machining.

My question is this...  Where the device sits will not be perfectly flat, only fairly flat.  With five screws I don't think the device will vibrate and stress the screws and break them.  I've not yet decided on 10-24 1/2" or going a bit deeper with 10-24 3/4" (note the device takes up some of the screw depth).

I appreciate discussion on this because I'm trying something new (to me) here and with something new, you never know how it's going to turn out until it's been life tested for 20,000 miles.  I'm trying to get it right the first time by spending a huge amount of time thinking about it.