HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: FSG on January 14, 2018, 03:57:03 PM

Quote from: 1FSTRK on January 14, 2018, 03:28:59 AM

Quote from: FSG on January 14, 2018, 01:28:31 AM
  good job

I'd go 15 to 18 inch pounds, dont forget the loctite

I did not look it up but that sounds high for cast aluminium that does not have threads 2x the bolt diameter. I also would not use dry specs for bolts installed with loctite. I would double check before going that tight, not trying to be a know it all just would hate to see one stripped after all this great work.

fair call, they aren't holding the cylinder head on, so as long as loctite is used so they don't back-out then finger tight to a few in lbs will get the job done

The instructions for the Timken sleeve says to torque the six 8-32 screws to 25-30 in-lbs.  Thoughts?

On a slightly different topic, after what Larry said I'm considering using Loctite 620 retaining compound on my six 8-32 screws like is used for the Timken sleeve screws.

I'm also considering hanging the device on the wall with a little sign under it "Ford Edsel", and taking my chances that the bearing won't walk.  Yes, I'm getting a bit apprehensive, but have not yet thrown in the towel.  I'm still staring at it and thinking.

Quote from: wfolarry on January 14, 2018, 05:11:15 AM

Quote from: kd on January 10, 2018, 04:14:23 PM
A couple of thoughts...... Cut the ring almost all of the way through in 2 places (maybe drill a hole at the inboard end of the slot) and mark one of 4 screw holes (I am agreeing with FSG on the reduced holes) as say the 12 o'clock position. That will allow it to be removed and replaced in the same position. My Bandit clutch steels are sliced many times part way through to prevent warping and do just fine under all that stress.    The second though is a gasket to cussion the mounting to any irregular casting flaws.   

Les's point about stopping the bearing from even starting to migrate seems to have merit and could be handled with a small shim pac to stack under the plate giving contact or maybe a couple thou clearance for expansion.

Back to you now. 

I would definitely consider this.  mounting a steel plate on a cast aluminum surface it will not conform to the surface & over time will spit those screws out. JMO.
This was a problem with the Timken conversion if you didn't get it perfectly flat on installation. A lot of people blamed the screws but the real reason was the installation.

Make a round flat and lap the surface flat ? Fly cutter (small) to true the surface ??

Quote from: CarlosGGodfrog on January 15, 2018, 08:04:11 AM

Quote from: wfolarry on January 14, 2018, 05:11:15 AM

Quote from: kd on January 10, 2018, 04:14:23 PM
A couple of thoughts...... Cut the ring almost all of the way through in 2 places (maybe drill a hole at the inboard end of the slot) and mark one of 4 screw holes (I am agreeing with FSG on the reduced holes) as say the 12 o'clock position. That will allow it to be removed and replaced in the same position. My Bandit clutch steels are sliced many times part way through to prevent warping and do just fine under all that stress.    The second though is a gasket to cussion the mounting to any irregular casting flaws.   

Les's point about stopping the bearing from even starting to migrate seems to have merit and could be handled with a small shim pac to stack under the plate giving contact or maybe a couple thou clearance for expansion.

Back to you now. 

I would definitely consider this.  mounting a steel plate on a cast aluminum surface it will not conform to the surface & over time will spit those screws out. JMO.
This was a problem with the Timken conversion if you didn't get it perfectly flat on installation. A lot of people blamed the screws but the real reason was the installation.

Make a round flat and lap the surface flat ? Fly cutter (small) to true the surface ??

Lapping.  Exactly the idea that popped into my head this morning as I was staring at the device and engine casing at the kitchen table.  I think what Larry is saying is that the hard steel against the soft (bumpy) aluminum will (because of vibration) eventually pound down the tiny high spots in the aluminum, thus loosening the device by creating a tiny gap.

Having enough flat aluminum to provide enough push back on the device might be the answer.  In other words, this appears to be the design of the Timken insert.  It's not a matter of the machined surface, but rather providing enough flattened aluminum to push back on the steel Timken sleeve...which the machined surface provides.

I'm now running through my pee brain a method to lapping.  I might need to take some of the fancy shaping off the device to get enough spin using thumb pressure.  The thought being that we "conform" valves to valve seats by lapping.  Maybe I can get that device to conform to the casing enough by lapping too.

Thanks for suggesting the lapping idea.

Take it to your machinist friend that built the retainer and have him skim cut the surface to clean up.

DONE!!

Quote from: mike jesse on January 15, 2018, 12:07:11 PM
Take it to your machinist friend that built the retainer and have him skim cut the surface to clean up.

DONE!!

I understand what you're saying.  But as mentioned before, it's not really about getting it done.  It's a spare engine so I've got plenty of time.  If it's possible, I'm trying to create a device that the home mechanic can install without needing machining work or equipment.  Is it possible?  Don't know yet; still trying to work something out.

  I'm done.

Quote from: mike jesse on January 15, 2018, 02:42:48 PM
I'm done.

Understand, and thank you for the advice on using the forming tap.  Exactly what I ended up doing, but I didn't use the one out of my Timken sleeve installation tool.  That one is oversized (+.0025).  I bought a regular 8-32 forming tap for this project.  Again, thanks for the help!

This is what it looks like after the lapping.  The rough surface feels a lot smoother.  Only thing I'm concerned about now it being careful to not strip the threads by too much torque.

Again, thanks to all for your replies on the device.  Your comments were very helpful.

Set of pictures on the final steps of the bearing retainer.  Installed bearing...

Align the retainer.

Installed the retainer using the 8-32 1/2" long flathead screws.  I used Loctite 620 on the screws and torqued them to 30 in-lbs. each.

Nice work Les.

 

 

looks good 

Nice. Lot better than 2 or three screws in the edge of race

Just to close the loop on this long journey winter build, I got the bike back from the tuner.

141 hp, 148 torque

Hi Les, just read through this thread and I got to say I admire your tenacity, job well done and good numbers to finish it off 

Quote from: les on May 11, 2018, 08:50:40 AM
Just to close the loop on this long journey winter build, I got the bike back from the tuner.

141 hp, 148 torque

How about a run down of the rest of the build, we never got past where you finished the bearing retainer?

Quote from: les on May 11, 2018, 08:50:40 AM
Just to close the loop on this long journey winter build, I got the bike back from the tuner.

141 hp, 148 torque

excellent results les...congrats 

give us the rest of the story... 

Quote from: 1FSTRK on May 12, 2018, 04:28:30 AM

Quote from: les on May 11, 2018, 08:50:40 AM
Just to close the loop on this long journey winter build, I got the bike back from the tuner.

141 hp, 148 torque

How about a run down of the rest of the build, we never got past where you finished the bearing retainer?

Oh, "Potty mouth".  I didn't even realize I did not share about the rest of the build.

124" (4 5/8" stroke, 4 1/8" bore)
T-Man cylinders and pistons (5cc dome, based on his process of boring raw S&S jugs and tight fitting his pistons made by Weisco)
T-Man performance pro touring heads (2" intake valves, 1.8" intake ports, and that cool optional breather setup)
T-Man 660 PS cams, S&S fancy blue oil pump and plate.
HPI 62mm fuel injection with 6.2 gps injectors and V2 air filter (with that cool velocity stack)
All the other hoopla (limited lifters, the long S&S adjustable pushrods, S&S roller rockers, rocker lockers)
Oh, yeah.  My first grudge box tranny bearing installation
SE full clutch plate stack with the SE VPC
Tuning module is the SE Super Pro Tuner
What am I forgetting...oh, yeah.  Boss Boarzilla (those ninnies stopped making the Boarzilla cut!)

Another part of the story is the case boring.  I feel good about this one because I can now bore cases without leaving my garage.  I started with the JIMS tool, but not sure if you know, that tool just don't measure up...literally.  It can not bore deep enough.  I had it modified (lengthened) by a local machine shop.  Now, it can perform the 2.250" depth piston bore.

The cold cranking compression came out exactly where TR and I agreed on.  Measurement at 125 miles showed 207.  Warm cranking compression at 500 miles showed 225 front and 220 rear.

Before the dyno tuning (dyno graph showed 130 hp) I loaded the bike up with all the weight I could put on it to simulate 2-up riding.  It was the first time I've pegged the speedo at 120.  First time because I don't like to "hang around" for too long after 100; makes me nervous to linger up there.  You get the point I'm trying to make.  I'm sure with this extra bump after the tuning, it's able to rocket up there even faster.  Perhaps only on special occasions. 

Quote from: Hilly13 on May 11, 2018, 01:35:37 PM
Hi Les, just read through this thread and I got to say I admire your tenacity, job well done and good numbers to finish it off 

Thanks.  I have to say that I can't recall being in the Frankenstein Dungan (garage) when I've had more fun, for so long, at such intensity, at such fear, at such desperation, at such excitement, at such learning, at...

What a high!   

Very nice Les. Will you be posting your dyno sheet? I'd love to see the curve (and AFR if available). I'm sure others will too. 

 nice job les!