March 28, 2024, 02:10:37 PM

News:

For advertising inquiries or help with registration or other issues, you may contact us by email at help@harleytechtalk.com


Are the new stock 2019 M-8's good enough without engine work?

Started by Ken R, March 10, 2019, 03:14:54 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Ken R

I've been through several Harleys over the past 18 years.  Haven't left any of them stock.  The original TC-88's were anemic; they'd hardly pull your hat off.   Boring, new cams, new head gasket,etc. etc.etc. were all needed for a heavy touring  bike that couldn't maintain 70 mph in an uphill headwind. 

My current 2013, with all the work and improvements (cams, breather, exhaust), doesn't come close to the performance and fuel efficiency of the new stock M-8's.  I'm totally happy with the performance and efficiency of the 2013. 

Other than maybe a pair of Fulsac cores to get the sound back like I'm used to and a new  PowerVision unit, it appears  that really nothing else is needed.  It would be nice to have the higher performance without risking warranty issues. 

Am I wrong?

stro1965

Hi Ken! Like you, I always seem to do stuff to my motors. I just did stage 2 on my M8 107". I have ridden the 114" and I THINK that might be the first one ever that I'd leave stock. But probably not.

Hammerhandle

I loved my TC's, my 103 would shake my neighbors windows.
I love the torque of the M8, but honestly If i could have my 19 RGS with the 103 out of my 2016 or even a 110, It would be the perfect combo IMO
Now the only reasons I say that, is because 1. Harley dick slapping people for even a stage 1 w/o their tuner (u know the aftermarket that helps sell your bikes and keeps your company alive :angry:), and 2. the sumping issue, I hate that i need to worry about grenading an engine (regardless of mods) when its their flawed design that is causing the issues.  :doh:

Harley, you put 2 band-aids on $20 - $30k dollar bikes, nowhere in the world should that be acceptable.
IE: My brother purchased a used Infinti q50 or whatever the model # is for the SUV, a month after purchase, the timing chains went, and Nissan stated, yup thats a known issue, we will even replace the entire engine with a brand new one if need be, and it cost him zero, because it was their design failure that was causing the issues with the engines, but failures didnt always occur, so they corrected as they failed FREE regardless of age, or mileage, or aftermarket warranty.
That is how you keep customers returning to your brand, even if its used.
2019 Wicked Red Denim FLTRXS

hd06

   You ask if Harley is good enough without engine work? If Harley put a rocket engine on a bike someone would tweak it for more torque. Like to see the stage kits for that.

Breeze

It's morally illegal to leave a Harley completely stock.  :slap:
I'm starting to believe my body is gonna outlast my mind.

PFWiz

My 117" 2018 CVO Limited had more power stock than my stage 2 2011 RGU 103" had. The new 114" should be about the same. They are also much smoother!
I think that is the info you were looking for...

Maddo Snr

Short answer is 'yes'.

The 107 is a better motor than the 114 IMO. The 107 is right on the limit of acceptable B:S ratio. No 114 I've ridden is as smooth at speed as a 107.

I did a stage 1 to my 107 and it lowered the comfortable pulling RPMs by 400-500 and made it loud enough to hear my shift points rather than watch the tacho.

I'm happy with the bike now, I don't get the concept of making more HP on a bike with marginal handling and braking, (except for the northbound on-ramp from Rancho Cal to the 15 at 7:30am.  :SM: )
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

Desertwndrr

They are great without engine work.  They are greater with a little engine work.

I think that they do need at least a Stage I.  They just run better opened up a bit.  I ran mine for a while as a Stage I and really enjoyed it (this is coming off a 2012 with a 124"), however when I came across a good used cam I swapped it in.  Just for the simple reason that I do my own work and by the time that you have a Stage I with a tuner it is pennies to take that additional step.  Plus I wanted to swap out that inner cam bearing and upgrade the oil pump with the new inboard cover.  (Mine was an Aug 2018 build)

With the cam I don't feel the need to crack the motor open at all.

BradLH

I went from a TC88 Electra Glide with stage 1 to a 2018 107 Street Glide and the M8 seemed to have substantially more power.  I put 18,000 miles on it bone stock then did a stage 2.  I certainly didn't need to do anything to it but it sounds better now and is more fun to ride. 

The downside is the fuel mileage dropped 6 mpg after the mods.  Before, I would make the run from Carlsbad, NM to El Paso, TX without worrying.  Now I feel I'd need to carry extra fuel for that 170 mile stretch since there's no gas available between those towns.

sfmichael

Ken I also have a 2013 and was less than impressed with the stock performance. But after A/C, exhaust, cams and tune I loved it.

Now that's a bit of coin to do all that, but once finished I was very satisfied.

Just my luck in 2014 they actually put a decent cam in a Harley from the factory and I've said for years that all the newer ones need are a good set of mufflers and a good dyno tune.

I've been away from the dealer for a couple years but I bet that still holds true. Everybody bitches about having to upgrade them but honestly since the 103 came around I feel they've definitely been at least adequate.

If you're not a horsepower junkie get one and do a good muffler upgrade and a comprehensive dyno tune and enjoy it.
Colorado Springs, CO.

hd06

   The 103 is a good motor my biggest problem was the heat from the cat,that can be fixed. Test rode a M8 in 2016 when they came out and fell in love the torque it great. My advice if you love your bike don't test ride a M8.

Ken R

This is good information.  Thank you. 
I'm basically happy with my 2013 after having installed the CR575 cams, mufflers, air cleaner, and the tune. 
But the friends with whom I do a good amount of touring mileage around the country have all updated to 2019.  So there's that peer pressure. 

And I don't want to be the one that breaks down because of being on the oldest motorcycle.  (one friend's 2013 broke down in Boise, Idaho and needed new engine cases.  We left him in Boise and continued on without him.  He had to rent a motor there to continue to Glacier National Park to meet us and then leave us to take it back to Boise and fly home.  It was expensive for him and it deprived him of half the trip.

I know a new motorcycle is no guarantee, but my 2013 is pushing 60K miles now and I think about the aftermarket cam and other stuff every time I leave N. Texas. 

I'm thinking that this time, I'd like to just leave a motorcycle stock except for mufflers and a tune.   The M-8 engine would be more powerful and efficient than my 103 with everything I've done to it. 

So the bug has bitten. 

Ken



Quote from: sfmichael on March 12, 2019, 11:44:52 PM
Ken I also have a 2013 and was less than impressed with the stock performance. But after A/C, exhaust, cams and tune I loved it.

Now that's a bit of coin to do all that, but once finished I was very satisfied.

Just my luck in 2014 they actually put a decent cam in a Harley from the factory and I've said for years that all the newer ones need are a good set of mufflers and a good dyno tune.

I've been away from the dealer for a couple years but I bet that still holds true. Everybody bitches about having to upgrade them but honestly since the 103 came around I feel they've definitely been at least adequate.

If you're not a horsepower junkie get one and do a good muffler upgrade and a comprehensive dyno tune and enjoy it.

sfmichael

Quote from: hd06 on March 13, 2019, 02:34:14 AM
   The 103 is a good motor my biggest problem was the heat from the cat,that can be fixed. Test rode a M8 in 2016 when they came out and fell in love the torque it great. My advice if you love your bike don't test ride a M8.

    :teeth: 

I've yet to ride one but will make it a point to do so this year. I have held off as I'm unwilling to buy the first one or two years of any major changes in a vehicle. Quite often too many initial problems whether it's bikes, cars, or whatever.

Never say never but I don't think I'd drop the coin until or if they ever do something to significantly improve the rear suspension. And it doesn't hurt that I love my 2013...

Colorado Springs, CO.

Ken R

I wonder why the fuel efficiency dropped so drastically.  Fuel mileage is one of the fun things to watch and compare when on trips with friends.  I'd hate to lose 6 mpg. 
We ride across the deserts of Arizona, New Mexico, etc. often and often go 200 miles between fill-ups.   I was hoping to do that with a better reserve in the tank than with my 2013. 
Maybe just mufflers (so I can hear my motor during practice sessions) and a tune wouldn't hurt the mileage. 

Thank you for the feedback.  It's all going in to help me decide to pull the trigger on the new bike . . . or not.

Ken

Quote from: BradLH on March 12, 2019, 09:13:13 PM
I went from a TC88 Electra Glide with stage 1 to a 2018 107 Street Glide and the M8 seemed to have substantially more power.  I put 18,000 miles on it bone stock then did a stage 2.  I certainly didn't need to do anything to it but it sounds better now and is more fun to ride. 

The downside is the fuel mileage dropped 6 mpg after the mods.  Before, I would make the run from Carlsbad, NM to El Paso, TX without worrying.  Now I feel I'd need to carry extra fuel for that 170 mile stretch since there's no gas available between those towns.

sfmichael

Ken I think with a Stage 1 only the mileage wouldn't likely suffer much, if it all

It could even potentially increase...

They're in their third year of production, I say go for it

Do you have a great dyno guy near you?
Colorado Springs, CO.

Ken R

I have a really good dyno guy!  "The Dyno Difference" here in Dallas.   And I have my PowerVision on which I check the tune annually  and make little tweaks if necessary or desired.

Ken


Quote from: sfmichael on March 13, 2019, 09:20:25 AM
Ken I think with a Stage 1 only the mileage wouldn't likely suffer much, if it all

It could even potentially increase...

They're in their third year of production, I say go for it

Do you have a great dyno guy near you?

Ancient

I've tried out a couple stock 107's. Meh. I do like the smoothness, but I was underwhelmed on the guts part.

My 103 would have them for lunch. Of course it's not stock so not a fair comparison. If I went new I'd have to do some work on it.
Greg

BradLH

Quote from: Ken R on March 13, 2019, 08:50:47 AM
I wonder why the fuel efficiency dropped so drastically.  Fuel mileage is one of the fun things to watch and compare when on trips with friends.  I'd hate to lose 6 mpg. 
We ride across the deserts of Arizona, New Mexico, etc. often and often go 200 miles between fill-ups.   I was hoping to do that with a better reserve in the tank than with my 2013. 
Maybe just mufflers (so I can hear my motor during practice sessions) and a tune wouldn't hurt the mileage. 

Thank you for the feedback.  It's all going in to help me decide to pull the trigger on the new bike . . . or not.

Ken

Quote from: BradLH on March 12, 2019, 09:13:13 PM
I went from a TC88 Electra Glide with stage 1 to a 2018 107 Street Glide and the M8 seemed to have substantially more power.  I put 18,000 miles on it bone stock then did a stage 2.  I certainly didn't need to do anything to it but it sounds better now and is more fun to ride. 

The downside is the fuel mileage dropped 6 mpg after the mods.  Before, I would make the run from Carlsbad, NM to El Paso, TX without worrying.  Now I feel I'd need to carry extra fuel for that 170 mile stretch since there's no gas available between those towns.

I'm not sure why it dropped that much.  Ed at The Dyno Difference tuned mine and said it should get 38 to 42 mpg.  I'm on my first trip since the mods and tune.  I've ridden from Oklahoma City to Phoenix and it's averaged 32 to 33 mpg except when running into a 45 mph wind west of Lubbock where it got 22 mpg.  I'm planning to call Ed when I get back to ask about it.

Ken R

OH!  You're local here in Dallas!  How about that!

I never get  very good gas mileage in N. Central Texas.  If I keep my 2013 at 60 mph, it'll get 40 to 42 mpg.  But it's hard to go that slowly. :wink:
At 70 to 79 mph (my usual interstate speed depending on the state I'm in) I usually get 38 to 40 mpg but only in other states like New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, etc.

But boy, oh boy . . . in Colorado it's unusual to get less than 45 mpg.  In fact, I got 62 mpg (same bike) from Estes Park to Great Sand Dunes.  (I was never the lead motorcycle in the group and that helps a lot, along with thinner air)  On the way back to DFW, as soon as we filled up in Clayton, NM, mileage dropped back to 33 mpg for the next 3 tanks.   These things have the aerodynamics of bricks. 

So as you can see, playing with gas mileage is one of my joys of motorcycle riding across the country.  That's why your statement about mileage dropping after the mods hit me.

Ken


Quote from: BradLH on March 13, 2019, 02:58:26 PM
Quote from: Ken R on March 13, 2019, 08:50:47 AM
I wonder why the fuel efficiency dropped so drastically.  Fuel mileage is one of the fun things to watch and compare when on trips with friends.  I'd hate to lose 6 mpg. 
We ride across the deserts of Arizona, New Mexico, etc. often and often go 200 miles between fill-ups.   I was hoping to do that with a better reserve in the tank than with my 2013. 
Maybe just mufflers (so I can hear my motor during practice sessions) and a tune wouldn't hurt the mileage. 

Thank you for the feedback.  It's all going in to help me decide to pull the trigger on the new bike . . . or not.

Ken

Quote from: BradLH on March 12, 2019, 09:13:13 PM
I went from a TC88 Electra Glide with stage 1 to a 2018 107 Street Glide and the M8 seemed to have substantially more power.  I put 18,000 miles on it bone stock then did a stage 2.  I certainly didn't need to do anything to it but it sounds better now and is more fun to ride. 

The downside is the fuel mileage dropped 6 mpg after the mods.  Before, I would make the run from Carlsbad, NM to El Paso, TX without worrying.  Now I feel I'd need to carry extra fuel for that 170 mile stretch since there's no gas available between those towns.

I'm not sure why it dropped that much.  Ed at The Dyno Difference tuned mine and said it should get 38 to 42 mpg.  I'm on my first trip since the mods and tune.  I've ridden from Oklahoma City to Phoenix and it's averaged 32 to 33 mpg except when running into a 45 mph wind west of Lubbock where it got 22 mpg.  I'm planning to call Ed when I get back to ask about it.

Maddo Snr

KenR: re fuel economy. Like you, I ride long open country rides at 60-70mph and often need to run 250 miles between fuel stops.

My old stage 1 103 2011 Road King was always about 47-49 USmpg. My new stage 1 107 2019 Street Glide is only a touch thirstier at 45-48 USmpg. That's with our terrible low MON fuel.

The trick to good economy IMO is thoroughly tweaking the ignition curves in the tune. Most tuners fuel them up to stoich over the RPM range without tweaking the spark curves. I set my own tune up a tad lean in the 2000-2500 cruising sector as well. There's no reason a fairing M8 stage 1 107 can't get close to 48mpg @ a constant 70mph.

2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

Mainecat

Quote from: Ken R on March 13, 2019, 08:43:18 AM
This is good information.  Thank you. 
I'm basically happy with my 2013 after having installed the CR575 cams, mufflers, air cleaner, and the tune. 
But the friends with whom I do a good amount of touring mileage around the country have all updated to 2019.  So there's that peer pressure. 

And I don't want to be the one that breaks down because of being on the oldest motorcycle.  (one friend's 2013 broke down in Boise, Idaho and needed new engine cases.  We left him in Boise and continued on without him.  He had to rent a motor there to continue to Glacier National Park to meet us and then leave us to take it back to Boise and fly home.  It was expensive for him and it deprived him of half the trip.

I know a new motorcycle is no guarantee, but my 2013 is pushing 60K miles now and I think about the aftermarket cam and other stuff every time I leave N. Texas. 

I'm thinking that this time, I'd like to just leave a motorcycle stock except for mufflers and a tune.   The M-8 engine would be more powerful and efficient than my 103 with everything I've done to it. 

So the bug has bitten. 

Ken



Quote from: sfmichael on March 12, 2019, 11:44:52 PM
Ken I also have a 2013 and was less than impressed with the stock performance. But after A/C, exhaust, cams and tune I loved it.

Now that's a bit of coin to do all that, but once finished I was very satisfied.

Just my luck in 2014 they actually put a decent cam in a Harley from the factory and I've said for years that all the newer ones need are a good set of mufflers and a good dyno tune.

I've been away from the dealer for a couple years but I bet that still holds true. Everybody bitches about having to upgrade them but honestly since the 103 came around I feel they've definitely been at least adequate.

If you're not a horsepower junkie get one and do a good muffler upgrade and a comprehensive dyno tune and enjoy it.

So what was the hp and tq on the previous TC you were happy with?  That should help you nail down what you need to do to get similar numbers.  Weight differences are probably not a major factor between bikes unless your switching models?

PoorUB

Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 13, 2019, 03:42:58 PM
KenR: re fuel economy. Like you, I ride long open country rides at 60-70mph and often need to run 250 miles between fuel stops.

My old stage 1 103 2011 Road King was always about 47-49 USmpg. My new stage 1 107 2019 Street Glide is only a touch thirstier at 45-48 USmpg. That's with our terrible low MON fuel.

The trick to good economy IMO is thoroughly tweaking the ignition curves in the tune. Most tuners fuel them up to stoich over the RPM range without tweaking the spark curves. I set my own tune up a tad lean in the 2000-2500 cruising sector as well. There's no reason a fairing M8 stage 1 107 can't get close to 48mpg @ a constant 70mph.

I agree, the tune isn't 100%

I had a 107" Twin Cam and I could get close to 50 MPG riding easy, average was close to 40 MPG.

My 2016 with the stock 103 internally,  but cams and exhaust  averages  just a touch over 40 MPG.

Many tuners adjust fuel and never touch the spark advance tables. I run a TTS and street tune my motorcycles because most dyno tuners just tune for power. If you know what you are doing you can tune for power and decent MPG at cruise RPM.

I keep advancing the timing in the cruise range until I see the ECM start to pull timing then back it off until the ECM doesn't  pull timing any longer. All the while adjusting the fuel.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Ken R

Ed Dahir has been so helpful in my striving for maximum fuel efficiency. 
With his tuning and coaching, we've inched the fuel to stoich at the touring rpm and adjusted the timing. 
I monitored Engine Temperature to make sure it wasn't running too lean.  Engine Temperature was still well within acceptability.  So I left  it like that. 

A tiny bit less fuel over 2-3 hours of steady droning down the highway makes a significant difference at the next pump fill-up. 

My results were almost always 2 to 3 mpg better than my friends' same make-model motorcycles.  Road Glides always got 2-3 mpg better than me.   They slice through the wind better.

So one of the goals of my desire to update to a 2019 (in addition to have a more state-of-the-art and maybe more reliability over my old motor) is to stay in competition with my buds.   :teeth: 
We always go around to the gas pumps and make mental notes of who got the best mileage.  For us, it's part of the fun of the trip. 

Ken

Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 13, 2019, 03:42:58 PM
KenR: re fuel economy. Like you, I ride long open country rides at 60-70mph and often need to run 250 miles between fuel stops.

My old stage 1 103 2011 Road King was always about 47-49 USmpg. My new stage 1 107 2019 Street Glide is only a touch thirstier at 45-48 USmpg. That's with our terrible low MON fuel.

The trick to good economy IMO is thoroughly tweaking the ignition curves in the tune. Most tuners fuel them up to stoich over the RPM range without tweaking the spark curves. I set my own tune up a tad lean in the 2000-2500 cruising sector as well. There's no reason a fairing M8 stage 1 107 can't get close to 48mpg @ a constant 70mph.

woodreaux

Recently sold my 13 RGU and 17 RGS and bought a 19 Ultra Classic.
The 19 Ultra is without a doubt the best HD that I have bought; said another way it's my favorite to date. 
Performance is very smooth and feels way more planted and balanced when leaned over.
More so than other E-Glides and Road Glides previously owned.
It moves very well on the road and I have plenty of usable power for touring.

I like the handling of the 19 Ultra better than the Road Glides which surprised me and using the same seat on all my bikes keeps my riding position the same.

The 19 Ultra suspension for my weight is not bad - actually I am surprised and impressed.
The 13 had Ohlin's front and rear and I experimented with "NAME BRAND" suspension components that proved to be not very good on the 17RGS.

Since I like riding long distances in remote areas I have decided to keep the 19 Ultra stock except for the AIM Light Force I installed which is awesome for me.
Fuel mileage and noise are the influences for remaining stock and I use the intercom so my master can issue instructions when she's with me.
I have plans for another bike that will not be used as a touring bike.

Riding Durwood's RS-468 Stage 1 recipe was really fun however the low speed manners (pin turns) in the parking lot behind his shop is what really impressed me.
I suspect that his 124 M8 project would be ridiculously fun to ride –

For me there's no doubt the 19 Ultra in stock form with the Light Force for clutch and throttle work in traffic or twisty roads is a great platform.

Mopower

My 2017 FLHXS ran good enough stock that I waited for the warranty to expire before modifying it. It now has Zippers 117 sleeper kit w/ RS 468 cam. BTW gas mileage stock was always 35 mpg, but I can't drive 55  :SM: