is it possible to get a narrower front tyre for my trike ? its currently an avon roadrunner 100/90/h19. thanks
Avon do 90/90 H19 in the AM20/21 series, the Road Rider series and the Road Rider Mk 2 series.
The 90/90 is smaller than the 100/90 so the front end will drop about half an inch but you knew that anyway...
90/90x 19 is a common size so Metzeler etc should have them too.
An amusing Avon tyre you might want to consider is the Avon Sidecar Triple duty. 92mm wide but with a high sidewall. It is an old old design but with modern compounds.
Being intended for sidecars the tyre profile is flat. I've used them on all 3 wheels on a sidecar outfit without problems so it should be OK for the front of a trike.
The load rating is 57L = 75mph max.
thanks. my idea was to have a narrower more rounded tyre so it steers lighter around corners. im running 30psi at the moment but someone said run 40.
I wouldn't run more than the max pressure listed on the sidewall.
Steering lighter usually means less bite on the road surface. Think about that. You can't change the spots on a leopard.
Quote from: david lee on September 26, 2021, 02:08:47 PM
thanks. my idea was to have a narrower more rounded tyre so it steers lighter around corners. im running 30psi at the moment but someone said run 40.
Welcome to the happy world of rake and trail!
Servicars had a 23 degree steering head angle as did 45s for a nice light steering feel - and they didn't go fast enough for nasty speed wobbles. I suppose your trike is using the original 30 degree steering head angle.
Europeans get around that heavy feel on sidecars by using leading link forks. Described as like fitting power steering. Bad news you might find them ugly...
Quote from: kd on September 26, 2021, 02:49:29 PM
Steering lighter usually means less bite on the road surface. Think about that. You can't change the spots on a leopard.
Um. No. Mainly. (depending on what the idiot did to his bike)
Quote from: kd on September 26, 2021, 02:49:29 PM
Steering lighter usually means less bite on the road surface. Think about that. You can't change the spots on a leopard.
thats my theory too but pc hater says no
Quote from: PC_Hater on September 26, 2021, 03:05:06 PM
Quote from: kd on September 26, 2021, 02:49:29 PM
Steering lighter usually means less bite on the road surface. Think about that. You can't change the spots on a leopard.
Um. No. Mainly. (depending on what the idiot did to his bike)
Well I have had at least 1 sidecar rig (have 2 on the road right now) since 1980 and as much as it is not a trike with the same wheel / axle layout, it is similar in that you steer it. No matter how hard you lean it is steering that makes it turn. All of my rigs have been HD with 16" wheels. I have had several models hooked up including a couple of shovelhead Super Glides with 19" front wheels (one mag and the other spoke). Right now I have a 98 evo Ultra and Road King with 16" wheels and I even use an MU85 on the rear to get more stability.
IMO there are 3 enemies of handling. One is tire road patch. another is inflation (which influences road contact) and the last is rubber compound. With the last one many riders search out the tire that gives them the most miles of wear. I know because I did it too. :embarrassed: A properly sized and inflated tire with a good soft compound will support the load and not roll over. Put a little garvel road into the mix and you'll understand pucker effect in the corners if you accidently go in too hot. The same with gravel on the road surface. The larger sizes are able to do more than the cute little ones and that's a fact in my world.
I do ride with others that have trikes and have done so since the mid 70's. The early years were custom built similar to david lee's. (and even the VW kits that were popular then) Pretty well without exception those guys gave in to using the 16" wheel eventually. I haven't owned a trike so my response is qualified only but what I explained here. I also think that the "sidecar tire" with the flat wider tread profile mentioned in the earlier reply #2 contradicts the narrow tire use. Why else would this special Avon tire be "Being intended for sidecars the tyre profile is flat." :scratch:
Quote from: kd on September 26, 2021, 07:00:47 PM
Quote from: PC_Hater on September 26, 2021, 03:05:06 PM
Quote from: kd on September 26, 2021, 02:49:29 PM
Steering lighter usually means less bite on the road surface. Think about that. You can't change the spots on a leopard.
Um. No. Mainly. (depending on what the idiot did to his bike)
Well I have had at least 1 sidecar rig (have 2 on the road right now) since 1980 and as much as it is not a trike with the same wheel / axle layout, it is similar in that you steer it. No matter how hard you lean it is steering that makes it turn. All of my rigs have been HD with 16" wheels. I have had several models hooked up including a couple of shovelhead Super Glides with 19" front wheels (one mag and the other spoke). Right now I have a 98 evo Ultra and Road King with 16" wheels and I even use an MU85 on the rear to get more stability.
IMO there are 3 enemies of handling. One is tire road patch. another is inflation (which influences road contact) and the last is rubber compound. With the last one many riders search out the tire that gives them the most miles of wear. I know because I did it too. :embarrassed: A properly sized and inflated tire with a good soft compound will support the load and not roll over. Put a little garvel road into the mix and you'll understand pucker effect in the corners if you accidently go in too hot. The same with gravel on the road surface. The larger sizes are able to do more than the cute little ones and that's a fact in my world.
I do ride with others that have trikes and have done so since the mid 70's. The early years were custom built similar to david lee's. (and even the VW kits that were popular then) Pretty well without exception those guys gave in to using the 16" wheel eventually. I haven't owned a trike so my response is qualified only but what I explained here. I also think that the "sidecar tire" with the flat wider tread profile mentioned in the earlier reply #2 contradicts the narrow tire use. Why else would this special Avon tire be "Being intended for sidecars the tyre profile is flat." :scratch:
thanks kd a good summary
If you just need a little help going around corners, put on a wider set of handlebars. If that isn't enough, throw a 16" wheel up front with a 120/80 tire. That'll drop the front end enough to decrease the trail and make it lighter handling.
Quote from: Julio on September 27, 2021, 05:24:33 PM
If you just need a little help going around corners, put on a wider set of handlebars. If that isn't enough, throw a 16" wheel up front with a 120/80 tire. That'll drop the front end enough to decrease the trail and make it lighter handling.
thanks. it has wide bars with pull back risers and is comfortable also the seat is in the perfect position
PC_Hater, to be clear, my previous comments were directed at david lee's post #3. He was looking for lighter steering my going to a slimmer tire and reducing the contact patch. You are adding another dimension to the steering effort that IMO should also be considered. In your last example the chop has the heaviest steering (likely expressed at a stop or very low speed) due to the exaggerated rake. The weight of the whole front fork assembly "flops" around the neck post spindle. That's the heavy part of your description in the comparison. The way to avoid that up to a point is to position the fork in the trees behind the spindle like the late model touring bikes do. There is another consideration though. At least with sidecars, added rake gives more stability to the front end at highway speeds as they may shimmy on bumps or with no hands on the bars. It was often done with adjustable trees to be used when the sidecar rig was attached. Again, I am talking sidecar not trike so it may be apples / oranges.
When I look at the OP's trike it does appear to have a little additional rake. It has extended fork tubes also. If you look at the rear axle it is way back from the original position and that causes a lot more weight to be on the front tire. There is a lot more going on here other than just the tire to cause a heavy steering condition.
Both trikes and side cars benefit hugely from removing almost all of the trail.
I put OEM Big Twin side car trees on my trike and it completely eliminated it's tendency to "head shake".
The other big change was to exchange the rear wheels from heavy high offset 15" wheels to the shortest lightest and least offset available.
This lowered and narrowed the rear of the trike and made a huge difference in the feel.
It went from feeling sort of dodgy and tippy, to enough giving enough confidence to slide it around. It feels like a big wheel!!!
This lowered the center of gravity and moved it back some but the biggest influence was narrowing up the footprint.
Narrowing the footprint gave the rear wheels less leverage against the steering, so it feels more stable not as janky.
I am a strong supporter of proper steering geometry to decrease steering effort on a trike and eliminate head shake.
Raked trees help, by decreasing the trail it lessens the mechanical advantage the chassis has against the steering.
Quote from: Burnout on September 28, 2021, 09:40:15 AM
Both trikes and side cars benefit hugely from removing almost all of the trail.
I put OEM Big Twin side car trees on my trike and it completely eliminated it's tendency to "head shake".
The other big change was to exchange the rear wheels from heavy high offset 15" wheels to the shortest lightest and least offset available.
This lowered and narrowed the rear of the trike and made a huge difference in the feel.
It went from feeling sort of dodgy and tippy, to enough giving enough confidence to slide it around. It feels like a big wheel!!!
This lowered the center of gravity and moved it back some but the biggest influence was narrowing up the footprint.
Narrowing the footprint gave the rear wheels less leverage against the steering, so it feels more stable not as janky.
I am a strong supporter of proper steering geometry to decrease steering effort on a trike and eliminate head shake.
Raked trees help, by decreasing the trail it lessens the mechanical advantage the chassis has against the steering.
thanks.do you agree with julios post ? makes sense to me
Changing to a 16" wheel will only make 1/2" difference in axle height.
Quote from: david lee on September 28, 2021, 01:39:13 PM
Quote from: Burnout on September 28, 2021, 09:40:15 AM
Both trikes and side cars benefit hugely from removing almost all of the trail.
I put OEM Big Twin side car trees on my trike and it completely eliminated it's tendency to "head shake".
The other big change was to exchange the rear wheels from heavy high offset 15" wheels to the shortest lightest and least offset available.
This lowered and narrowed the rear of the trike and made a huge difference in the feel.
It went from feeling sort of dodgy and tippy, to enough giving enough confidence to slide it around. It feels like a big wheel!!!
This lowered the center of gravity and moved it back some but the biggest influence was narrowing up the footprint.
Narrowing the footprint gave the rear wheels less leverage against the steering, so it feels more stable not as janky.
I am a strong supporter of proper steering geometry to decrease steering effort on a trike and eliminate head shake.
Raked trees help, by decreasing the trail it lessens the mechanical advantage the chassis has against the steering.
thanks.do you agree with julios post ? makes sense to me
A very definite YES! from me!
Now, having opened the can of worms what do you intend to do next?
I foresee new trees to reduce the trail, a new 16" front wheel and longer fork tubes to make up for the reduced height and while you are in there improved fork damping and progressive fork springs.
It'll be fun. You'll like it the results...
(pics of trikes and sidecar outfits running car tyres on all 3 wheels are available, especially in Europe. Riding up the Oodnadatta Track vs the Stuart Highway might lead to different choices. I rode the Oodnadatta Track on an MZ which doesn't help you at all!)
Quote from: Burnout on September 28, 2021, 07:48:10 PM
Changing to a 16" wheel will only make 1/2" difference in axle height.
I suggested using a 120/80-16 tyre, which will drop the front end by over an 1".
You can use this tire size calculator to check it out.
https://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html (https://www.miata.net/garage/tirecalc.html)
When I built my Sportster trike, I used the stock front end with a 19" wheel. It handled like a UPS truck. I slid the tubes up the tree as far as they could go, a distance of a bit over 1" and it was like a totally different machine, planted and stable.
Of course, I couldn't leave it alone, so I replaced the front end with the pan/shovel adjustable rake tree and a 16" wheel with a 120/80-16 tire.
The front end got too light and jittery, a sign of not enough trail. I put on a 19" wheel with a 100/90-19 tire and it settled right down.
Any change, up or down, on the front end will affect handling.
Just my experience.
Dave, that looks like a lot of rake in that frame. I don't know anything at all about trikes, but in general, with two wheels, lots of rake means heavy steering, regardless of the kind of wheel/tire on it. If you truly want to lighten up the steering, take it to a chopper shop, have the frame de-raked and use shorter front fork tubes.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on September 29, 2021, 09:35:45 AM
Dave, that looks like a lot of rake in that frame. I don't know anything at all about trikes, but in general, with two wheels, lots of rake means heavy steering, regardless of the kind of wheel/tire on it. If you truly want to lighten up the steering, take it to a chopper shop, have the frame de-raked and use shorter front fork tubes.
-JW
that makes sense i once new a guy with a chopper and was basically only good in a straight line. im pretty sure he ended up de raking it. he had longer forks than me
Quote from: david lee on September 29, 2021, 01:24:06 PM
Quote from: JW113 on September 29, 2021, 09:35:45 AM
Dave, that looks like a lot of rake in that frame. I don't know anything at all about trikes, but in general, with two wheels, lots of rake means heavy steering, regardless of the kind of wheel/tire on it. If you truly want to lighten up the steering, take it to a chopper shop, have the frame de-raked and use shorter front fork tubes.
-JW
that makes sense i once new a guy with a chopper and was basically only good in a straight line. im pretty sure he ended up de raking it. he had longer forks than me
You can also see that the rear wheels are further back than the normal position so the whole combined weight of everything forward of them is hanging on the front end and wheel.
what i should say is the steering seems hard to turn when stationary
Quote from: david lee on September 30, 2021, 01:41:13 PM
what i should say is the steering seems hard to turn when stationary
That's just a trait of trikes, especially one raked out like yours. It has very little to do with the tire.
Indeed, and any vehicle without power steering. My '55 chevy truck is a handfull in a tight parking lot, but rolling down the highway, steers with one finger.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on September 30, 2021, 02:15:44 PM
Indeed, and any vehicle without power steering. My '55 chevy truck is a handfull in a tight parking lot, but rolling down the highway, steers with one finger.
-JW
how true. when i first rode the trike if you took your hands off the bars it would get the death wobbles. it now has 1 st damper each side of the forks. the frame is not bent
And I would think those dampers are contributing to the difficulty in turning the wheel, yes?
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on September 30, 2021, 02:37:08 PM
And I would think those dampers are contributing to the difficulty in turning the wheel, yes?
-JW
thought about that too might turn the adjusters to zero and see what happens
If you do loosen them to make it turn easier, what happens with the head shake that they were installed to prevent?
Quote from: Hossamania on September 30, 2021, 04:58:02 PM
If you do loosen them to make it turn easier, what happens with the head shake that they were installed to prevent?
good point trial and error on the settings both are set at 4 the highest is 6