HarleyTechTalk

Quote from: 98fxstc on October 21, 2023, 12:29:59 AM

Quote from: Hilly13 on October 20, 2023, 09:58:50 PMI bet you can hear that coming down the road KD 😁

I think he posted a short video clip on here just after he got it back on the road.
Don't think it would be hijacking the thread if he put it up again   

Hell yes, I'd love see/ hear that 😁

Quote from: kd on October 20, 2023, 09:14:10 PM

Quote from: 60Gunner on October 20, 2023, 08:06:22 PM

Quote from: les on October 26, 2022, 02:31:07 PMAfter talking to Terry (T-Man), he agreed with my plan to use his 660 PS cams.  This was on a 2011 Road King.  The compression was 10.8 static.  Terry said it would be a torque monster.  The dyno run got 148.6 torque.  Great running engine, and the guy who bought it (ran it hard) sheared the teeth off of third gear of a Baker Grudge Box.

Would you mind sharing the paper? I'd Like to see the curve. What exhaust?

Following along here I am seeing what I believe is some confusion about the TMan 660 cams.  I didn't see where Tom Reiser (TMan) was pushing the OP to go 662-2 over the 660.  (who is Terry?) In fact it appears he suggested the opposite to the OP.  BTW, Tom Reiser has stated openly that he designed the 660 to be the 590's big brother.

I am using a 660SM in my 120.  I didn't tune it but I was in the booth every second it was on the drum.  The tuner, a highly capable individual, has tuned many similar combinations with this cam and said it was not a complicated tuning job (at least for him). To be clear, my MVA heads were dialed in specifically for the 660 from a recipe he developed with the tuner I was with.  The exhaust valves are larger  and the exhaust ports were reworked.  The 2 pipes it was tuned with over the same session were 2.55" and 3.0" baffles. (so much for over exhausting)  The HPI 62/64 TB w/ 6.2 injectors increased the 1.8 runner volume enough to smooth out the intake pulse.  It produces street and parking lot manners like (or better) than the 103 I replaced and is a quiet engine.  This engine has destroyed / stripped 3rd gear out of 2 OEM transmissions and the GrudgeBox is now coming out to go in on a warranty repair.  No shortage of power anywhere.

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?action=dlattach;ts=1542728950;topic=99409.0;attach=81713

I have been emailing back and forth with Brandon occasionally for over a year and he consistently brings up the 662. That's just not a cam that I'm interested in. The 662 just doesn't fit me fo4 the type of riding I do.

Quote from: 838 on October 20, 2023, 06:03:27 PMBased on this post and your other post about a New setup it looks like you're looking to be in the power around 2750rpm so that your feeling loaded and ready for roll on passing when cruising at 70-75mph on the interstate and you want that roll on to pick up real fast like... your not bangin' the limiter only but once in a while on a back road...

Go with the 590!!! Torque for days, easy on the rest of the components and will still carry out far enough to pucker your keister when you need the rush!

I know where you're at with getting back on the bike too... I ride this same way now as well. It took time brother!!!

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,109007.msg1304409.html#msg1304409

Getting your 2-1 dialed in would probably flatten that curve out where this one's still doing a little climbing between 2700-3k... that fullsac pipe was a big x-pipe... I don't even think he makes it anymore... great mufflers helped give it what it has!

You are right on about what it is that I am looking for. 😎

Whip knows the 590s will get it done. Sounds like the 660s will too with the right head work and throttle body to justify and make the added exhaust duration work. It would seem his existing heads and valve sizes would work well too but a change to the 62/64 Max flow TB. Or would the 58/62 work better with his pipe?
I'm not so sure about a 3" baffle being best. It might work but is it best?

Here's why I wonder and want to know what works best. Not just what works.

I talked to someone at Tman, don't remember his name, several times about my build and what heads they would use and what I could expect on the dyno.
All I'm saying is I'm doing 7-8hp and slughly more peak torque than they saw with the 590s in a 107 and what I was told I could expect with their Elite pro touring heads, 58mm TB, and 2in1 exhaust. Their recommendations.
I'm just tying to figure out why. What part of my build is different that made the difference?
I suspect, and at the time even talked about the 55/58 max f!ow with this person from Tman, and he seemed to agree. I see a max flow being used  here now.
What about my heads is different as far as intake to exhaust flow?
I was told their Thumper heads were a little overkill on the intake valve but I don't recall the sizes of their two different heads now.
Don't take this the wrong way. Everyone that knows me knows I believe in Tman cams and what they do.
I'm just trying to see what's different here and what makes the 660s and their 10° added exhaust duration work best like I did with the 590s and their 4° exhaust duration.
I think the TB is part of it. Intake to exhaust valve ratio? Ports? Pipes?
I want to know the difference between les's build and kd's and see both torque curves to see what makes the 660s work better with their exhaust duration. Not why they don't. Follow me? :wink

I've got my flow sheet showing intake AND exhaust every step of the way. Not just max at .600 or .700 lift. It shows average of the two overall  too.
Maybe we all can learn something here.
Obviously I did something right with the 590s in a 107.  I want to know what made the difference.
I like to know why something works not just that it does.
:

Quote from: 60Gunner on October 21, 2023, 05:26:30 AMWhip knows the 590s will get it done. Sounds like the 660s will too with the right head work and throttle body to justify and make the added exhaust duration work. It would seem his existing heads and valve sizes would work well too but a change to the 62/64 Max flow TB.
I'm not so sure about a 3" baffle being best. It might work but is it best?

I talked to someone at Tman, don't remember his name, several times about my build and what heads they would use and what I could expect on the dyno.
All I'm saying is I'm doing 7-8hp and a little more peak torque than they saw with the 590s and what I was told I could expect with their Elite pro touring heads, 58mm TB, and 2in1 exhaust.
I'm just tying to figure out why. What part of my build is different?
I suspect, and at the time even talked about the 55/58 max f!ow with this person from Tman, and he seemed to agree. I see a max flow being used  here now.
What about my heads is different as far as intake to exhaust flow?
I was told their Thumper heads were a little overkill on the intake valve but I don't recall the sizes of their two different heads now.
Don't take this the wrong way. Everyone that knows me knows I believe in Tman cams and what they do.
I'm just trying to see what's different here and what makes the 660s and their 10° added exhaust duration work best like I did with the 590s and their 4° exhaust duration.
I think the TB is part of it. Intake to exhaust valve ratio? Ports? Pipes?
I want to know the difference between les's build and kd's and see both torque curves to see what makes the 660s work better with their exhaust duration. Not why they don't. Follow me? :wink

I've got my flow sheet showing intake AND exhaust every step of the way. Not just max at .600 or .700 lift. It shows average of the two overall  too.
Maybe we all can learn something here.
Obviously I did something right with the 590s in a 107.  I want to know what made the difference.
I like to know why something works not just that it does.
:

 

http://www.bigboyzheadporting.com/tccams.htm

Quote from: WhipLash96 on October 21, 2023, 02:43:51 AM

Quote from: 838 on October 20, 2023, 06:03:27 PMBased on this post and your other post about a New setup it looks like you're looking to be in the power around 2750rpm so that your feeling loaded and ready for roll on passing when cruising at 70-75mph on the interstate and you want that roll on to pick up real fast like... your not bangin' the limiter only but once in a while on a back road...

Go with the 590!!! Torque for days, easy on the rest of the components and will still carry out far enough to pucker your keister when you need the rush!

I know where you're at with getting back on the bike too... I ride this same way now as well. It took time brother!!!

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,109007.msg1304409.html#msg1304409

Getting your 2-1 dialed in would probably flatten that curve out where this one's still doing a little climbing between 2700-3k... that fullsac pipe was a big x-pipe... I don't even think he makes it anymore... great mufflers helped give it what it has!

You are right on about what it is that I am looking for. 😎

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,114701.0.html

This is my "sport touring" ride... it's a decent dyno (it was sumping ) but this one flat rips in the partial throttle areas you're looking for.

I figured I'd rack gunners brain a little more cause that 570 has a ton of exhaust duration as well 😂!!!

Quote from: kd on October 21, 2023, 05:59:44 AM

Quote from: 60Gunner on October 21, 2023, 05:26:30 AMWhip knows the 590s will get it done. Sounds like the 660s will too with the right head work and throttle body to justify and make the added exhaust duration work. It would seem his existing heads and valve sizes would work well too but a change to the 62/64 Max flow TB.
I'm not so sure about a 3" baffle being best. It might work but is it best?

I talked to someone at Tman, don't remember his name, several times about my build and what heads they would use and what I could expect on the dyno.
All I'm saying is I'm doing 7-8hp and a little more peak torque than they saw with the 590s and what I was told I could expect with their Elite pro touring heads, 58mm TB, and 2in1 exhaust.
I'm just tying to figure out why. What part of my build is different?
I suspect, and at the time even talked about the 55/58 max f!ow with this person from Tman, and he seemed to agree. I see a max flow being used  here now.
What about my heads is different as far as intake to exhaust flow?
I was told their Thumper heads were a little overkill on the intake valve but I don't recall the sizes of their two different heads now.
Don't take this the wrong way. Everyone that knows me knows I believe in Tman cams and what they do.
I'm just trying to see what's different here and what makes the 660s and their 10° added exhaust duration work best like I did with the 590s and their 4° exhaust duration.
I think the TB is part of it. Intake to exhaust valve ratio? Ports? Pipes?
I want to know the difference between les's build and kd's and see both torque curves to see what makes the 660s work better with their exhaust duration. Not why they don't. Follow me? :wink

I've got my flow sheet showing intake AND exhaust every step of the way. Not just max at .600 or .700 lift. It shows average of the two overall  too.
Maybe we all can learn something here.
Obviously I did something right with the 590s in a 107.  I want to know what made the difference.
I like to know why something works not just that it does.
:

 

http://www.bigboyzheadporting.com/tccams.htm

No offense but this tells me nothing but projected compression based on the IVC of a cam. A nice tool for the beginning stage of looking for a cam.
But as you know, two cams with identical intake events can have totally different results. Likewise, two cams with significantly different intake events can have near identical results.
This was shown in that thread from 2014 with max effort builds and exhaust lobe shape and designs and the radical S&S 635HO.
Two cams with like 8° different intake valve events and different compression had nearly the exact same torque curve and numbers in the same bike/build. Why?

Quote from: 60Gunner on October 21, 2023, 07:09:05 AM

Quote from: kd on October 21, 2023, 05:59:44 AM

Quote from: 60Gunner on October 21, 2023, 05:26:30 AMWhip knows the 590s will get it done. Sounds like the 660s will too with the right head work and throttle body to justify and make the added exhaust duration work. It would seem his existing heads and valve sizes would work well too but a change to the 62/64 Max flow TB.
I'm not so sure about a 3" baffle being best. It might work but is it best?

I talked to someone at Tman, don't remember his name, several times about my build and what heads they would use and what I could expect on the dyno.
All I'm saying is I'm doing 7-8hp and a little more peak torque than they saw with the 590s and what I was told I could expect with their Elite pro touring heads, 58mm TB, and 2in1 exhaust.
I'm just tying to figure out why. What part of my build is different?
I suspect, and at the time even talked about the 55/58 max f!ow with this person from Tman, and he seemed to agree. I see a max flow being used  here now.
What about my heads is different as far as intake to exhaust flow?
I was told their Thumper heads were a little overkill on the intake valve but I don't recall the sizes of their two different heads now.
Don't take this the wrong way. Everyone that knows me knows I believe in Tman cams and what they do.
I'm just trying to see what's different here and what makes the 660s and their 10° added exhaust duration work best like I did with the 590s and their 4° exhaust duration.
I think the TB is part of it. Intake to exhaust valve ratio? Ports? Pipes?
I want to know the difference between les's build and kd's and see both torque curves to see what makes the 660s work better with their exhaust duration. Not why they don't. Follow me? :wink

I've got my flow sheet showing intake AND exhaust every step of the way. Not just max at .600 or .700 lift. It shows average of the two overall  too.
Maybe we all can learn something here.
Obviously I did something right with the 590s in a 107.  I want to know what made the difference.
I like to know why something works not just that it does.
:

 

http://www.bigboyzheadporting.com/tccams.htm

No offense but this tells me nothing but projected compression based on the IVC of a cam. A nice tool for the beginning stage of looking for a cam.
But as you know, two cams with identical intake events can have totally different results. Likewise, two cams with significantly different intake events can have near identical results.
This was shown in that thread from 2014 with max effort builds and exhaust lobe shape and designs and the radical S&S 635HO.
Two cams with like 8° different intake valve events and different compression had nearly the exact same torque curve and numbers in the same bike/build. Why?

IMO Your response contradicts your previous (cam spec) exhaust duration comments and throws them into the dumper.  You have to go one way or the other.  It is as you know dependent on included components so quite irrelevant. 

I don't know if you realize this or not but the OP had a specific question about usability of a certain cam in a 124. The conversation has veered way off course and is probably best and have more utility in it's own thread discussing cam spec aspects with that subject heading.  I probably wouldn't have entered the conversation if I hadn't noticed the muddy water.  Posters need to feel their contributions won't be spirited away from the intended subject matter or they won't bother posting.  Something to consider.

Quote from: 838 on October 21, 2023, 06:42:53 AM

Quote from: WhipLash96 on October 21, 2023, 02:43:51 AM

Quote from: 838 on October 20, 2023, 06:03:27 PMBased on this post and your other post about a New setup it looks like you're looking to be in the power around 2750rpm so that your feeling loaded and ready for roll on passing when cruising at 70-75mph on the interstate and you want that roll on to pick up real fast like... your not bangin' the limiter only but once in a while on a back road...

Go with the 590!!! Torque for days, easy on the rest of the components and will still carry out far enough to pucker your keister when you need the rush!

I know where you're at with getting back on the bike too... I ride this same way now as well. It took time brother!!!

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,109007.msg1304409.html#msg1304409

Getting your 2-1 dialed in would probably flatten that curve out where this one's still doing a little climbing between 2700-3k... that fullsac pipe was a big x-pipe... I don't even think he makes it anymore... great mufflers helped give it what it has!

You are right on about what it is that I am looking for. 😎

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,114701.0.html

This is my "sport touring" ride... it's a decent dyno (it was sumping ) but this one flat rips in the partial throttle areas you're looking for.

I figured I'd rack gunners brain a little more cause that 570 has a ton of exhaust duration as well 😂!!!

The 570 with stock heads will NOT do so well with that pipe. Bumping compression AND increasing intake flow changes this. It's also why some change rocker ratio on the intake side only to increase lift. It works well with the 570s and that exhaust duration.

Quote from: kd on October 21, 2023, 07:30:58 AM

Quote from: 60Gunner on October 21, 2023, 07:09:05 AM

Quote from: kd on October 21, 2023, 05:59:44 AM

Quote from: 60Gunner on October 21, 2023, 05:26:30 AMWhip knows the 590s will get it done. Sounds like the 660s will too with the right head work and throttle body to justify and make the added exhaust duration work. It would seem his existing heads and valve sizes would work well too but a change to the 62/64 Max flow TB.
I'm not so sure about a 3" baffle being best. It might work but is it best?

I talked to someone at Tman, don't remember his name, several times about my build and what heads they would use and what I could expect on the dyno.
All I'm saying is I'm doing 7-8hp and a little more peak torque than they saw with the 590s and what I was told I could expect with their Elite pro touring heads, 58mm TB, and 2in1 exhaust.
I'm just tying to figure out why. What part of my build is different?
I suspect, and at the time even talked about the 55/58 max f!ow with this person from Tman, and he seemed to agree. I see a max flow being used  here now.
What about my heads is different as far as intake to exhaust flow?
I was told their Thumper heads were a little overkill on the intake valve but I don't recall the sizes of their two different heads now.
Don't take this the wrong way. Everyone that knows me knows I believe in Tman cams and what they do.
I'm just trying to see what's different here and what makes the 660s and their 10° added exhaust duration work best like I did with the 590s and their 4° exhaust duration.
I think the TB is part of it. Intake to exhaust valve ratio? Ports? Pipes?
I want to know the difference between les's build and kd's and see both torque curves to see what makes the 660s work better with their exhaust duration. Not why they don't. Follow me? :wink

I've got my flow sheet showing intake AND exhaust every step of the way. Not just max at .600 or .700 lift. It shows average of the two overall  too.
Maybe we all can learn something here.
Obviously I did something right with the 590s in a 107.  I want to know what made the difference.
I like to know why something works not just that it does.
:

 

http://www.bigboyzheadporting.com/tccams.htm

No offense but this tells me nothing but projected compression based on the IVC of a cam. A nice tool for the beginning stage of looking for a cam.
But as you know, two cams with identical intake events can have totally different results. Likewise, two cams with significantly different intake events can have near identical results.
This was shown in that thread from 2014 with max effort builds and exhaust lobe shape and designs and the radical S&S 635HO.
Two cams with like 8° different intake valve events and different compression had nearly the exact same torque curve and numbers in the same bike/build. Why?

IMO Your response contradicts your previous (cam spec) exhaust duration comments and throws them into the dumper.  You have to go one way or the other.  It is as you know dependent on included components so quite irrelevant. 

I don't know if you realize this or not but the OP had a specific question about usability of a certain cam in a 124. The conversation has veered way off course and is probably best and have more utility in it's own thread discussing cam spec aspects with that subject heading.  I probably wouldn't have entered the conversation if I hadn't noticed the muddy water.  Posters need to feel their contributions won't be spirited away from the intended subject matter or they won't bother posting.  Something to consider.

Whip and I had this conversation in private. I know what he wants and we pretty much agree on most of this.
I'm not sure how my response changes my position on exhaust duration tho. It works great to balance intake and exhaust...to a point. Like anything else, too much isn't good tho. It helps evacuate exhaust from the combustion chamber and improve scavenging. Too much and you're sucking the incoming charge right out the exhaust valves and pipes.
I want to know what/where crosses that line and why the added 6° works here compared to most Tman cams. and with what valves/TB and pipe characteristics.
I'm pretty sure Whip does too.
It should move back to his other thread tho. The 625 isn't even on his radar really at this point and it's why I questioned what he was thinking here. That's when we took it private. Others have continued here by asking  questions related to the 660. Not 625. I responded.

We can take it back to a private conversation. I figured everyone would benefit and learn from it tho. Myself included.
My bad if it's not allowed here tho.

FYI. I was not recommending the 570 cam for the OP's application. Only showing a bike with a torque curve that represents the power location for his (and my) riding styles. If I did my 117 above as a 124" with all else being same... I'd use a TR590

This was also the conundrum I spoke of earlier in this thread. I called the head porter, told him what else I had and he told me to roll the 570 at 10.2-10.3:1 with his heads.

Quote from: 838 on October 21, 2023, 08:22:37 AMFYI. I was not recommending the 570 cam for the OP's application. Only showing a bike with a torque curve that represents the power location for his (and my) riding styles. If I did my 117 above as a 124" with all else being same... I'd use a TR590

This was also the conundrum I spoke of earlier in this thread. I called the head porter, told him what else I had and he told me to roll the 570 at 10.2-10.3:1 with his heads.

Quote from: 838 on October 21, 2023, 08:22:37 AMFYI. I was not recommending the 570 cam for the OP's application. Only showing a bike with a torque curve that represents the power location for his (and my) riding styles. If I did my 117 above as a 124" with all else being same... I'd use a TR590

This was also the conundrum I spoke of earlier in this thread. I called the head porter, told him what else I had and he told me to roll the 570 at 10.2-10.3:1 with his heads.

I wonder what that 590 would do on stilts?

Quote from: WhipLash96 on October 22, 2023, 05:46:30 AM

Quote from: 838 on October 21, 2023, 08:22:37 AMFYI. I was not recommending the 570 cam for the OP's application. Only showing a bike with a torque curve that represents the power location for his (and my) riding styles. If I did my 117 above as a 124" with all else being same... I'd use a TR590

This was also the conundrum I spoke of earlier in this thread. I called the head porter, told him what else I had and he told me to roll the 570 at 10.2-10.3:1 with his heads.

Quote from: 838 on October 21, 2023, 08:22:37 AMFYI. I was not recommending the 570 cam for the OP's application. Only showing a bike with a torque curve that represents the power location for his (and my) riding styles. If I did my 117 above as a 124" with all else being same... I'd use a TR590

This was also the conundrum I spoke of earlier in this thread. I called the head porter, told him what else I had and he told me to roll the 570 at 10.2-10.3:1 with his heads.

I wonder what that 590 would do on stilts?

I asked this question in the AFR/Tuning section a while back, to see if anyone had real world results with that (I didn't get any replies). I'm tearing down a 117 and the guy who ported the heads told me to run a 1.725" (intake side only) if I ran the 590 on his heads. Mine is an older 590ps not his newest version.

The old 590's have a TDC lift of .209" with stock rockers, what would it be with 1.725"?

"Approximately" 0.222".

Measurements at the intake valve with the head on the motor will give the true value.
 

Quote from: Ohio HD on October 22, 2023, 05:21:05 PM"Approximately" 0.222".

Measurements at the intake valve with the head on the motor will give the true value.
 

Thanks Ohio, so intake lift would be .603" then is that right?

Quote from: Hilly13 on October 22, 2023, 05:47:15 PM

Quote from: Ohio HD on October 22, 2023, 05:21:05 PM"Approximately" 0.222".

Measurements at the intake valve with the head on the motor will give the true value.
 

Thanks Ohio, so intake lift would be .603" then is that right?

About 0.626".

Take either or both the TDC lift and total lift and divide them by 1.625. Then take the new value and multiply it by 1.725.

0.209 ÷ 1.625 = 0.129
0.129 x 1.725 = 0.222"

0.590 ÷ 1.625 = 0.363
0.363 x 1.725 = 0.626

It would also increase intake duration a bit.

Quote from: Ohio HD on October 22, 2023, 05:54:26 PMTake either or both the TDC lift and total lift and divide them by 1.625. Then take the new value and multiply it by 1.725.

0.209 ÷ 1.625 = 0.129
0.129 x 1.725 = 0.222"

0.590 ÷ 1.625 = 0.363
0.363 x 1.725 = 0.626

Arr, copy that, i was looking at it all wrong 👍

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,83861.msg947632.html#msg947632

This is a tr625 in a 124" with a zilla 🤷‍♂️... looks alright!

Another sheet that looks to give a decent torque curve, but also pulls the HP up higher uses the R&R 615.


https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,96108.0.html


You cannot view this attachment.

That's an interesting torque curve!

Quote from: Hilly13 on October 25, 2023, 03:43:12 PMThat's an interesting torque curve!

I would like to see that r&r 615 one with a different pipe. From what I've seen Joe Lyons can pretty much make anything work though that pipe was trouble for most iirc!

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,102526.0.html

Same bike, r&r 615 with wrath, swapped to 630i. Note 2.25" baffle