HarleyTechTalk

I'm considering running E85 in the 124" hot rod that I've been working on. This bike won't be a main daily rider, so I'm thinking of maybe going E85 to get some additional power. But I have some questions as I've not been around E85 use. So I'm hoping that some of our members can speak about what going to E85 entails for a Harley Davidson.

Some questions:
(1) What about sizing fuel injectors?
(2) Is there a need for higher than OEM fuel pressure?
(3) Full the OEM fuel pump, pressure regulator, fuel filter, fuel lines, o-rings, etc. hold up with E85?
(4) Does the ION sensing still work as designed with E85, I assume yes?
(5) Naturally aspired, what percentage of power increase is reasonable?
(6) HPI throttle body, is it compatible with E85?

I think these basic questions may help me decide on using E85. And of course anything that I should know is also appreciated.

E85 is popular in Miami- Jorge @ All American Cycles tunes with it a lot, typically adds up to 5 HP over conventional E10. They use bigger injectors w/stock fuel pump & lines on small engines. IDK what fuel delivery they use for big engines.

I was hoping to hear a little more increase in HP. But no doubt it's scaled on what the motor can produce on gasoline. I have a lot to learn before deciding.

I seem to remember that Strokerjlk tuned his 120R with E85 for power at the track and rode it as a daily driver.  He was a winner at the track with it. IIRC at one point he had about 40,000 miles on it.  I think he had a thread running about his testing and final results. I do recall the larger injectors and using more fuel. Jim doesn't seem to post here anymore but there may be some of that thread in the archives.

Here's one hit

https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,78936.msg1000075.html#msg1000075

     Consider this. https://blog.brocksperformance.com/faq/e85-fuel-in-my-motorcycle/   

What's your compression?  The higher compression, the better return with corn. 

I figure injector size for pump gas and figure about a third more for corn. 

There is really no special tuning requirements as for as ION. Still works and if target is set up correct.  Not much is real different on your AFR target and lambda target is straight forward. 

Pump corn is inconsistent of how much is actual corn compared to gasoline.  I like e90 from a barrel better. 

I know guys that have been running it for years.  Never a problem with other EFI components. 

When sourcing injectors.  A lot are on the market that will fit and spray fuel.  Most are corn rated.  But with different dead times and the need to use more fuel.  You can chase your tail with auto tune programs.  I really have had the best luck with and recommend sizing your injectors through Injector Dynamics. 

Durwood races his bagger with it, does quite well at the track. He's pushing big compression and big power numbers. Pretty sure it doesn't see much cruising 2 lanes, if any at all.

Quote from: hrdtail78 on April 24, 2024, 05:00:38 AMWhat's your compression?  The higher compression, the better return with corn. 

I figure injector size for pump gas and figure about a third more for corn. 

There is really no special tuning requirements as for as ION. Still works and if target is set up correct.  Not much is real different on your AFR target and lambda target is straight forward. 

Pump corn is inconsistent of how much is actual corn compared to gasoline.  I like e90 from a barrel better. 

I know guys that have been running it for years.  Never a problem with other EFI components. 

When sourcing injectors.  A lot are on the market that will fit and spray fuel.  Most are corn rated.  But with different dead times and the need to use more fuel.  You can chase your tail with auto tune programs.  I really have had the best luck with and recommend sizing your injectors through Injector Dynamics. 

Good info Jason, thanks. My compression is 12.60:1, this motor will have the heads that Jim built for me. I guess the main interest is getting a little more HP from the E85. If it's really no more different than how you use gasoline, that helps make my decision. Hearing that others are using it with OEM pump, etc. is good to hear.

I would like to stay away from buying barrel fuel. I understand that it's more consistent, it's just storing it that concerns me a little. As the hassle of making sure I have some.

You will see a nice gain at that compression.

It's a natural anti knock.  Besides requiring more which adds in cooling.  Has better latent heat properties over gasoline.  This all equates to less limitation on how much timing can be run, and better thermal management.

IIRC You decided a Vision.  Sheffer's would definitely be on my short list of tuners. He has plenty of experience tuning it with vision.  Runs it in his own race bike.

Quote from: hrdtail78 on April 24, 2024, 09:14:16 AMYou will see a nice gain at that compression.

It's a natural anti knock.  Besides requiring more which adds in cooling.  Has better latent heat properties over gasoline.  This all equates to less limitation on how much timing can be run, and better thermal management.

IIRC You decided a Vision.  Sheffer's would definitely be on my short list of tuners. He has plenty of experience tuning it with vision.  Runs it in his own race bike.

Actually I've changed a few things. I reverted the primary gearing back to stock 34 x 46. So a TTS is what I'll be going to again. I also sold my Grudge Box and will be using  cruise drive that Andy Simon reworked for me. I want to replace the black dongle with a current TTS dongle.

It appears that 5/5 % gain is the number talked about in un-boosted apps .
I could see a huge downside would be keeping moisture out of the fuel.
Do you live in a humid climate ?
You would (should) likely need to flush the system with regular gas between rides .

One guy I know who runs E85 has right around 15.0:1 compression.

I was just reading the latest engine labs about using the fuel. They also mention what it does to your oil. I don't know how to upload pictures from my phone on this site. But worth a read.
Andy 

Quote from: speedzter on April 24, 2024, 04:04:55 PMIt appears that 5/5 % gain is the number talked about in un-boosted apps .
I could see a huge downside would be keeping moisture out of the fuel.
Do you live in a humid climate ?
You would (should) likely need to flush the system with regular gas between rides .

I'm curious, has it been an experience that you or someone that you know has run E85? I ask because two guys that I know, Jim Kennedy and Chad Groves have tuned and run their bikes on E85. Jim has been racing with E85 for several years. He now runs Alcohol and Nitro. Chad converted a friends bike and said in 30k miles no issues. There's also a guy northern Ohio that advertises as converting and tuning HD's to E85. He I haven't spoken with.

Jim has a few posts on here regarding his experiences with E85.

Quote from: JSD on April 24, 2024, 07:52:52 PMI was just reading the latest engine labs about using the fuel. They also mention what it does to your oil. I don't know how to upload pictures from my phone on this site. But worth a read.
Andy

I saw that one, and I posted regarding that article on Tuesday.


https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,121694.0.html

Regarding moisture and E85, no experience in a "street" bike application, only
in race bikes running alcohol blend , where it was just accepted to clean the fuel system .

Fairly different situation, as the bike could sit for months between races.
Just from your description it won't be a daily rider, I imagined it sitting
for weeks between rides .

I know for me , I couldn't let the fuel sit, and the hassle would outweigh the benefits.

I see where you're coming from in that case. I'd ride the bike a few times a week in good weather, just not any long distances, and only to go out and play. I had been looking into fuel stabilizers that work with E85. Lucas has a fuel treatment that acts as a stabilizer, and also as a fuel drier. Like we used to use in the winter to avoid frozen fuel lines from moisture. I also ordered an E85 tester, I plan to test some E85 and let it sit during the summer, and see what changes if anything.

If I do go forward with E85, I may ask to have the bike tuned on 93 unleaded and on E85. All that should be needed is a swap of the injectors, the fuel, and a new tune. That way I'm not locked in to anything. 

I think I remember Stroker saying something like he tuned his iron butt bike for several fuel types to include E85 and could simply change the tune from the controller on the handlebar? Has been awhile. Have you considered reaching out to him for a voice discussion?

I have and will. I have his cell number. I just want to dig for some more info which will generate some more questions that I'll have.

I would also talk with Sheffer.  Always good to get opinions of people that have used it successfully.

Of the top 10 fastest power adder baggers in the country.  Right now I have 3 on this list that have all been set up for e90 with C&S blueprinted and installed MaxxECU.  One is the 2022 and 2023 probagger champion.  (Bert Baker bought this bike at end of season)  Of the 2 I have on the NA list.  One has been set up for e90 with C&S blueprinted and installed MaxxECU.  The other is running something else with TTS.

Standing right now.  I have 3 bikes in the top 5 of Pro Bagger.  First, third and fifth.  All running e90.

How do all these bikes handle this special fuel in between races and over the winter?  what special precautions are taken? 

BWTFIK

Oh I plan to talk to you Jason, I want to get you to tune it when I get everything finished.

I don't see an issue with moisture. A good bud has an E85 Chevy Silverado, and all he runs in it is E85. For years, and does nothing special regarding moisture. Moisture gets into the tank regardless of gasoline or E85. The difference is water is not soluble in gasoline, but is soluble in alcohol. So instead of forming a little pool in the bottom of the tank, it mixes into the fuel and just gets flushed/burned through the system. In fact when I was young punk back in Iowa, gas line freezing in winter was a common problem. The cure? This stuff called HEET, which was nothing more than alcohol that would melt ice and blend with the water to flush it through.

Will be interesting to hear about your results should you decide to proceed with this.

cheers,
JW