HarleyTechTalk

Technical Forums => Shovel Head => Topic started by: btalley on October 25, 2018, 07:54:04 AM

Title: Starter enlightenment
Post by: btalley on October 25, 2018, 07:54:04 AM
Hello All,
I just realized something that I was confused about.  I thought the 1st relay shown below was an aftermarket piece used with my lever style starter, but I guess not.
Both of these "relays" are used with the starter solenoid on the side of the primary case.  Is that correct?  The first one shown is a fx style relay and
the other is an FLH style relay?  Both are just used to get a small wire to large amp circuit?

Thanks for any info.
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: fbn ent on October 25, 2018, 08:46:15 AM
I think there is a bit of redundancy in your system.....both do the same job.
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: Mule on October 25, 2018, 09:35:06 AM
You need both of those relay's to install a lever operated starter engagement lever. The ice cube relay is energized by the lever, that energizes the big relay that energizes the starter.
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: fbn ent on October 25, 2018, 09:42:19 AM
Could someone please explain "lever operated" for me...or a pic maybe? I have seen the lever but not familiar with the wiring (obviously).
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: btalley on October 25, 2018, 12:40:52 PM
I wasn't real clear, but I know you need both to run the lever style, but if I was to swap the lever style out for a stock solenoid, I would use one or the other, correct?
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: HarleyCharley on October 25, 2018, 04:25:49 PM
What? It takes either but not both. I have an '81 low rider with the cube type relay and a '79 flh with the automotive type relay. These just energize the starter solenoid mounted in the inner primary housing.

charley
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: fbn ent on October 25, 2018, 05:35:13 PM
Quote from: btalley on October 25, 2018, 12:40:52 PM
I wasn't real clear, but I know you need both to run the lever style, but if I was to swap the lever style out for a stock solenoid, I would use one or the other, correct?

Correct.
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: 76shuvlinoff on October 26, 2018, 03:13:00 AM
It's early and I am still way short on caffeine. I have never had one of these levers. Are there heavy contacts in the lever mechanism going to the Starter like there are in the stock solenoid ? If so, why would you need a starter relay?   

More coffee.
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: Mule on October 26, 2018, 05:42:32 AM
No the contacts are not heavy, it makes contact at the end of the throw of the lever. just one small wire 16-18 gauge , supplies ground to the ice cube relay which energizes the large relay. The large relay is connected between the battery and the starter via battery cables.
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: a_disalvo on October 26, 2018, 06:24:41 AM
I replaced the #1 relay that mounts under the battery tray with the #2 ice cube relay mounted under the seat. There is enough room to ty-rap a spare under the seat. FWIW, Frank
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: 76shuvlinoff on October 26, 2018, 02:57:56 PM
Quote from: Mule on October 26, 2018, 05:42:32 AM
No the contacts are not heavy, it makes contact at the end of the throw of the lever. just one small wire 16-18 gauge , supplies ground to the ice cube relay which energizes the large relay. The large relay is connected between the battery and the starter via battery cables.

Ahhh.  Then I doubt it needs the smaller ice cube relay. The larger relay can be energized by the puny stock pushbutton wiring so going from the contacts on the lever to the coil on the larger relay should be enough. IMHO I wouldn't add anything extra in the circuit that could fail.
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: crock on October 27, 2018, 01:17:04 AM
I'm wondering what a leaver style starter is  :scratch:
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: 72fl on October 27, 2018, 03:44:55 AM
here ya go
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: billbuilds on October 27, 2018, 03:50:07 AM
     The description of this item on the J&P's website states, as Mule has said, that both style relays are required for installation.
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: rigidthumper on October 27, 2018, 07:49:36 AM
I've seen both used,when a small (lo current type) button on the handlebars is used to control the ice cube( medium current) relay, and the ice cube relay is used to control the Ford (big current) style relay, and the Ford relay is used to control the high current draw of the starter solenoid.
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: a_disalvo on October 27, 2018, 08:21:23 AM
I have replaced the "Ford" type relay with the ice cube relay years ago with no problems. You do not need both, they do the same job. Frank
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: btalley on October 27, 2018, 08:52:10 AM
Thanks all!
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: Mule on October 27, 2018, 01:31:15 PM
I have replaced the "Ford" type relay with the ice cube relay years ago with no problems. You do not need both, they do the same job. Frank

True but not in all situations! If you didn't use the Ice cube with the lever start you would fry the contacts at the lever in no time flat...
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: 76shuvlinoff on October 27, 2018, 04:27:10 PM
Quote from: Mule on October 27, 2018, 01:31:15 PM
I have replaced the "Ford" type relay with the ice cube relay years ago with no problems. You do not need both, they do the same job. Frank

True but not in all situations! If you didn't use the Ice cube with the lever start you would fry the contacts at the lever in no time flat...

That's the part I don't get. I see how it works but does the Ford relay coil pull that many amps that it requires another relay to operate it? The tiny wires on my puny start push button seem to handle it.  (but yes, over 24 years I have replaced that start button twice).
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: HarleyCharley on October 27, 2018, 06:06:04 PM
I think I figured out the reason for using both the cube and the automotive relay. Looks like they use the automotive relay to actually energize the starter (instead of using the solenoid) and using the cube relay to energize the automotive relay. That is if I understand this thing.

charley
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: Mule on October 27, 2018, 06:23:52 PM
I think I figured out the reason for using both the cube and the automotive relay. Looks like they use the automotive relay to actually energize the starter (instead of using the solenoid) and using the cube relay to energize the automotive relay. That is if I understand this thing.

Exactly!
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: a_disalvo on October 28, 2018, 08:06:11 AM
Lets see if there is any life left in this dead horse!!! The realys in the op do the same thing, but in different style bikes. They both energize the starter solenoid mounded on the inner primary, which in turn supplies power to the starter motor. Frank
Title: Re: Starter enlightenment
Post by: Mule on October 28, 2018, 10:23:28 AM
with a lever start there is no solenoid mounted on the inner primary, the lever unit replaces that.