Hey guys, kinda stuck with this top nut and don't want to break anything. 1996 Heritage softail
Can't seem to crack the top nut of the fork loose, even when put back up through the lower tree just low enough between the two trees to get good access and tightened up pinch bolts to 40 ft/lbs. The fork tube keeps slipping/ spinning round and the nut jammed tight.... Tried tapping with rubber mallet. Any ideas on how to get this one off?
My manual and YouTube have not been any help.
Thanks.
you got one undone but not the other ?
Put it back in original position with both clamps, upper and lower tightened to spec
if it wont shift with pressure on with open end spanner or shifter, give it a tap on top with a wooden mallet while under pressure
this pic is of 95 - 96, never mind that it's wrong ....... it was 25 yrs ago :SM:
the upper tree doesnt do much other than stop the leg from falling out, clamping is done by the lower tree and bolt # 7
if you haven't already changed out those bolts to good quality high tensile then I suggest you do
put the leg back into the other side of the tree and have another go, it maybe the tree holes are slightly worn/different in diameter
failing that ..... I used a gal garden gate pipe clamp hinge to hold the tubes in the bench vise, give something like that a go
(https://i.imgur.com/blBayox.png)
Quote from: FSG on May 20, 2020, 01:52:14 AM
this pic is of 95 - 96, never mind that it's wrong ....... it was 25 yrs ago :SM:
the upper tree doesnt do much other than stop the leg from falling out, clamping is done by the lower tree and bolt # 7
if you haven't already changed out those bolts to good quality high tensile then I suggest you do
put the leg back into the other side of the tree and have another go, it maybe the tree holes are slightly worn/different in diameter
failing that ..... I used a gal garden gate pipe clamp hinge to hold the tubes in the bench vise, give something like that a go
Thanks FSG, long time no chat 😁 yes, good idea to swap those bolts out to new high tensile ones.
How far up the lower clamp should I position it? Close up to the top clamp but not into it? Or just slightly through the bottom clamp?
Thanks
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 20, 2020, 01:16:08 AM
you got one undone but not the other ?
Put it back in original position with both clamps, upper and lower tightened to spec
if it wont shift with pressure on with open end spanner or shifter, give it a tap on top with a wooden mallet while under pressure
Thanks, but I don't understand what you mean by put in original position and tighten up both clamps? If I do that then I can't get access to the cap nut at the top to undo it with because it's inside the top clamp.. :scratch:
QuoteClose up to the top clamp but not into it?
:up: :SM: just enough room to get the spanner on
QuoteOr just slightly through the bottom clamp?
NO as then you'll be clamping the tube to item # 26
Use a dead blow hammer and hit the wrench as hard as you can.
Quote from: FSG on May 20, 2020, 02:50:13 AM
QuoteClose up to the top clamp but not into it?
:up: :SM: just enough room to get the spanner on
QuoteOr just slightly through the bottom clamp?
NO as then you'll be clamping the tube to item # 26
Quote from: capn on May 20, 2020, 03:12:20 AM
Use a dead blow hammer and hit the wrench as hard as you can.
I was tempted, but thought I would damage the fork tube? Looks like it's come to that anyway.
Thanks
Quote from: Adam76 on May 20, 2020, 02:29:49 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 20, 2020, 01:16:08 AM
you got one undone but not the other ?
Put it back in original position with both clamps, upper and lower tightened to spec
if it wont shift with pressure on with open end spanner or shifter, give it a tap on top with a wooden mallet while under pressure
Thanks, but I don't understand what you mean by put in original position and tighten up both clamps? If I do that then I can't get access to the cap nut at the top to undo it with because it's inside the top clamp.. :scratch:
I can get the cap nut on my 98 from above the top clamp
I can see from FSG's pic that you cannot do that :embarrassed:
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 20, 2020, 06:21:21 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on May 20, 2020, 02:29:49 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 20, 2020, 01:16:08 AM
you got one undone but not the other ?
Put it back in original position with both clamps, upper and lower tightened to spec
if it wont shift with pressure on with open end spanner or shifter, give it a tap on top with a wooden mallet while under pressure
Thanks, but I don't understand what you mean by put in original position and tighten up both clamps? If I do that then I can't get access to the cap nut at the top to undo it with because it's inside the top clamp.. :scratch:
I can get the cap nut on my 98 from above the top clamp
I can see from FSG's pic that you cannot do that :embarrassed:
Yeah, l wish l could.... would make things a little easier having two clamping points on the fork rubber instead of just one.
Lucky me... I have more than one 41mm lower tree...and one is used simply for a Tool... a holding tool...
Shock may be the only way to loosen an overtightened Cap.. Try a Brass Hammer first... Then...about a 3 pounder..
That threaded part at the top...where the Cap goes On... is a common Straight thread... put a Shortened bolt in it ..and Hit that Sucker with yer three pounder like ya Hate it... shock will loosen the Top and I do Mean... drive it like a big nail...
There is a socket made that fit the top nut of the fork and then you remove it with an impact gun.
I've come across a few that were quite stuck. I have a 15" adjustable wrench that I use on them. Remove the pinch bolt and replace it with a Grade 8. Lower the tube to get the wrench on the cap, tighten the pinch bolt really tight, then use a 5lb or so hammer and beat on the end of the wrench. If the tube still rotates in the clamp, tighten the pinch bolt more. Don't worry about the bolt, you are going to replace it again when you're done.
If that still will not break it free..... get out the torch and heat the tube at the top where the cap threads are. That will always cause it to crack free.
-JW
"If that still will not break it free..... get out the torch and heat the tube at the top where the cap threads are. That will always cause it to crack free."
Rebuilt my fork tubes on my 95 Heritage a couple months ago . Had same problem as you. did as JW113 said above to get mine off.
There are very few things that the blue tipped wrench won't loosen...
:SM:
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on May 20, 2020, 11:46:23 AM
I've come across a few that were quite stuck. I have a 15" adjustable wrench that I use on them. Remove the pinch bolt and replace it with a Grade 8. Lower the tube to get the wrench on the cap, tighten the pinch bolt really tight, then use a 5lb or so hammer and beat on the end of the wrench. If the tube still rotates in the clamp, tighten the pinch bolt more. Don't worry about the bolt, you are going to replace it again when you're done.
If that still will not break it free..... get out the torch and heat the tube at the top where the cap threads are. That will always cause it to crack free.
-JW
No Heat... I won't do that.. Again... just like those Phillips head screws in Cases... Drive it like a Damn Nail.. especially with a Bolt in the Threaded hole to protect the Cap....If you hit a phillips head case screw hard... it will come out with a cheap screwdriver...
A fool proof deal I made years ago. 1 1/4" hex bar I used to make Jap Bike starter nuts from. Milled a slot to fit the fork tube. Tigged a band around it so the slot couldn't spread. Now you can nail it with an impact gun, and 1 1/4" socket. Works every time.
John
[attach=0,msg1347901]
And if you're not a handy as John, you can get one of these (https://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0305).
I don't have that socket, might pick one up it's cheap enough. However, depending on the part in question, heat is no worse and possibly less concern than beating on it. For this case, I would not hesitate to do it again should the need arise. I see nothing that can be damaged from heating the top of the tube. Might get a little smoky, though.
:SM:
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on May 20, 2020, 11:46:23 AM
I've come across a few that were quite stuck. I have a 15" adjustable wrench that I use on them. Remove the pinch bolt and replace it with a Grade 8. Lower the tube to get the wrench on the cap, tighten the pinch bolt really tight, then use a 5lb or so hammer and beat on the end of the wrench. If the tube still rotates in the clamp, tighten the pinch bolt more. Don't worry about the bolt, you are going to replace it again when you're done.
If that still will not break it free..... get out the torch and heat the tube at the top where the cap threads are. That will always cause it to crack free.
-JW
Thanks JW, that was exactly going to be my game plan. Cheers, will let you know how i go today.
Quote from: rigidthumper on May 20, 2020, 03:25:56 PM
And if you're not a handy as John, you can get one of these (https://www.motionpro.com/product/08-0305).
Thanks rigid, yeah I've seen those - $30 Australian not too bad but add the $USD shipping and I can't justify $60+ for a one time use socket....... I will try JWs method or even try and weld ond up like John has done.
Cheers
Quote from: jsachs1 on May 20, 2020, 02:25:37 PM
A fool proof deal I made years ago. 1 1/4" hex bar I used to make Jap Bike starter nuts from. Milled a slot to fit the fork tube. Tigged a band around it so the slot couldn't spread. Now you can nail it with an impact gun, and 1 1/4" socket. Works every time.
John
[attach=0,msg1347901]
👍 looks good. Dont think my skills are as good as yours. Might be an opportunity to practice my welding skills 😁
the only thing in there from a heat perspective is an o-ring and it's replaceable
so JW is on the money
There are some things that are safe to heat, and some not. If they are heat treated, applying a torch is going to take the treatment out. If it's a wear or strength surface, not good. If simply structural, no problemo. Forks are made from cold formed steel tubing, and not heat treated. They are chrome plated for corrosion and wear, and heat will mess up the color where you apply it, but not in the region of concern (at the sliders). Yep, that O-ring is gonna get toasted, but when rebuilding forks, you need to replace pretty much all the soft parts.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on May 20, 2020, 08:00:36 PM
There are some things that are safe to heat, and some not. If they are heat treated, applying a torch is going to take the treatment out. If it's a wear or strength surface, not good. If simply structural, no problemo. Forks are made from cold formed steel tubing, and not heat treated. They are chrome plated for corrosion and wear, and heat will mess up the color where you apply it, but not in the region of concern (at the sliders). Yep, that O-ring is gonna get toasted, but when rebuilding forks, you need to replace pretty much all the soft parts.
-JW
Yep, you were on the money.. Only thing to crack that son of a bitch was
Very tight pinch bolt
Heat to the top few inches of the fork with a heat gun
And a real good smack with an open end and a big mallet....
Finally got it loose.
Thanks everyone for the tips. 👍
Quote from: Adam76 on May 20, 2020, 04:30:11 PM
Quote from: jsachs1 on May 20, 2020, 02:25:37 PM
A fool proof deal I made years ago. 1 1/4" hex bar I used to make Jap Bike starter nuts from. Milled a slot to fit the fork tube. Tigged a band around it so the slot couldn't spread. Now you can nail it with an impact gun, and 1 1/4" socket. Works every time.
John
[attach=0,msg1347901]
👍 looks good. Dont think my skills are as good as yours. Might be an opportunity to practice my welding skills 😁
Another MAJOR advantage of this set up comes into play during re-installation. Very easy to start the cap straight, without cross-threading it due to heavy duty springs, or springs that protrude a lot.
John
If you heat it to thr point of discoloring you went too far!
Now that you got the nut off, the real test is getting the spring compressed to get it back in. Spent hours of cursing and bruised hands till I came up with a tool be do the job. Good luck....
I can't speak to heavy springs, don't believe in them. The stock springs are not so bad, I use a 12 inch long drift, put the pointed end in the threaded hole of the cap, push straight down, and use an open end wrench to get the fork tube threads started. One thing I find that helps is before putting the springs in the tube, take the cap and find the place where the threads "just" start to engage in the tube, and mark them both with a sharpie marker. Then when you go to put the cap on with springs, you know where it should start to engage and not have to fish around for it.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on May 21, 2020, 08:56:31 AM
One thing I find that helps is before putting the springs in the tube, take the cap and find the place where the threads "just" start to engage in the tube, and mark them both with a sharpie marker. Then when you go to put the cap on with springs, you know where it should start to engage and not have to fish around for it.
-JW
Do that and put the nut in the vise with the threads up. The weight of the tube assembly and pulling down, which is easier, will make it much easier to screw the tube onto the threads.
Btw regarding the stuck cap, on that model bike, will that tube go into the trees from the top, so the cap could be reached from below the lower tree?
QuoteBtw regarding the stuck cap, on that model bike, will that tube go into the trees from the top, so the cap could be reached from below the lower tree?
No
Quote from: jsachs1 on May 21, 2020, 04:58:25 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on May 20, 2020, 04:30:11 PM
Quote from: jsachs1 on May 20, 2020, 02:25:37 PM
A fool proof deal I made years ago. 1 1/4" hex bar I used to make Jap Bike starter nuts from. Milled a slot to fit the fork tube. Tigged a band around it so the slot couldn't spread. Now you can nail it with an impact gun, and 1 1/4" socket. Works every time.
John
[attach=0,msg1347901]
👍 looks good. Dont think my skills are as good as yours. Might be an opportunity to practice my welding skills 😁
Another MAJOR advantage of this set up comes into play during re-installation. Very easy to start the cap straight, without cross-threading it due to heavy duty springs, or springs that protrude a lot.
John
Thanks, that's great advice. Just starting to think about reassembly.
Cheers
Quote from: 04rkryder on May 21, 2020, 07:47:40 AM
Now that you got the nut off, the real test is getting the spring compressed to get it back in. Spent hours of cursing and bruised hands till I came up with a tool be do the job. Good luck....
Thanks for the tip 04rk.
I have a set of std length progressives to go in and was wondering about how hard it was going to be to compress then enough to get the caps on.
Maybe I'm looking at a spring compressing tool now......
Lots of new tools this simple fork job is requiring!
Quote from: JW113 on May 21, 2020, 08:56:31 AM
I can't speak to heavy springs, don't believe in them. The stock springs are not so bad, I use a 12 inch long drift, put the pointed end in the threaded hole of the cap, push straight down, and use an open end wrench to get the fork tube threads started. One thing I find that helps is before putting the springs in the tube, take the cap and find the place where the threads "just" start to engage in the tube, and mark them both with a sharpie marker. Then when you go to put the cap on with springs, you know where it should start to engage and not have to fish around for it.
-JW
Hey JW, thanks for the tips.
It's just a set of std length progressive springs going in.
Will I need a spring compressor tool?
Thanks
QuoteWill I need a spring compressor tool?
No
QuoteDo that and put the nut in the vise with the threads up. The weight of the tube assembly and pulling down, which is easier, will make it much easier to screw the tube onto the threads.
:up:
This is what I came up with after hours of cursing. Not shown but he fork cap is screwed into the the tube plug and sets on the spring. Then the cap socket on top of that. The top plate and long threaded rod are from a Inner Cam bearing installation tool. Just turn the threaded rod and the spring is compressed, simple as pie. Should have taken a pic of parts before it was compressed.
Pro Motion sells kit to do the same thing but pricey. I use what I have around.
[attach=0]
:up:
Quote from: FSG on May 22, 2020, 12:20:31 AM
QuoteWill I need a spring compressor tool?
No
Thanks FSG.
Looks like the previous owner had put ATF in the forks (has come out red color).. how thoroughly do I need to kleen this out before putting in good quality fork oil?
Cheers
this is a fence/gate clamp/hinge from Bunnings that I used to hold the leg in a vise
(https://i.imgur.com/g3kcs4p.png)
doesn't need to be squeeky clean
Quote from: Adam76 on May 22, 2020, 06:32:49 PM
Looks like the previous owner had put ATF in the forks (has come out red color).. how thoroughly do I need to kleen this out before putting in good quality fork oil?
Cheers
Stock HD type E fork fluid is red.
While we're on the fork subject, another tool I made was from a modified drag link socket # A-17 from Snap On. This socket along with a long extension(24") is used to prevent the dampener tube from turning when loosening, or tightening the external allen bolt at the bottom of the fork leg. Especially if the bolt was drowned in Loctite previously. John
[attach=0,msg1348537]
I leave the fork springs in so there is pressure on the damper, and use an electric impact with a long reach hex. They spin right out as soon as you pull the trigger. If I ever happen across one that doesn't, that tool there looks pretty handy. Thanks!
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on May 24, 2020, 03:26:29 PM
I leave the fork springs in so there is pressure on the damper, and use an electric impact with a long reach hex. They spin right out as soon as you pull the trigger. If I ever happen across one that doesn't, that tool there looks pretty handy. Thanks!
-JW
:up: That's how I do them as well.
It occurs to me that Once ... long ago... i used a strap wrench to hold a tube that was ornery..