Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables

[BadHabit]

 Does optimal spark advance and timing vary from motor to motor?After l using winvp and looking at the spark advance tables in the map the dyno tuner provided I see that they made ZERO changes (front or rear) to the timing except for the area under 1500rpms and 80 and 90kpa... My understanding is that adjusting the timing during a dyno tune is very important. I was told that they tune ALL tables....confused...again

[jjdalynh]

same experience here from a reputable tuner.  reducing the timing in the upper right corner for easier starting.  wanted AFR optimized, spark optimized, CDE and MLN optimized..... none of that happened, and my bike was gone for a week.   I've since bought my own dyno and am figuring out my process.

[Mirrmu]

Not a surprise to hear that.

I reckon that would happen 99% of the time.

Even the posting of charts here leaves a lot to be desired and should be backed up with tune file data.

Every bike is different.

[BadHabit]

I did ALLOT of research and the things I've read suggest it's all part of a complete tune. I was aware that some shops skip some tables in the tuning process. That's why in my written correspondence with the shop prior to the tune I verified they would tune all tables (which they didn't)...While I don't figure I'll gain any big numbers with the timing being tuned I figured it would make for a smoother, cooler, more efficient motor. A former well respected tuner for this shop has commented online that it is VITAL to a proper tune and that if it's not done the tune isn't right...guess that thought process must have left the shop with him. Emailed the shop early yesterday and am still waiting for a reply back...

[jjdalynh]

i street tunes the VEs (autotune pro) on mine first.  the next summer i wanted the rest done that i can't do on the street. 

when it went on it was 105/106 baseline.  when it came off it was 112/110, with *no* adjustments to AFR or timing for best torque.  that was the minimum i wanted.  when i started asking about all those things i think he was like "oh, someone knows what they want".  and the reply was "i can keep it for as long as you want and make it perfect, but we don't usually touch that stuff".  after a week.  after $500.   

[jjdalynh]

after i got my dyno set up and had changed to smaller injectors and with a little help from steve at gmr on suggestions for the starting map, i had done some street tuning again but it's still a rough map, i got 109/109 on my dyno with no dyno tuning at all and a flat 13.0 AFR table.   

[Don D]

In order to optimize timing you need to be able to measure the results of the changes. There are riding situations (parts of the curve) where they will run fine but much better economy is possible with optimized timing. No way to feasibly measure that with the instruments most motorcycle tuner use. Ion sensing is used for ping threshold and there is a new system on the M8s. But Ion sensing has been proven to be not accurate after mods are done to the engine and this has not been opened up to tweaking by the flash tuners. There is a Dynojet real time torque module which is useful but very rare in the field.

Bottom line, no recipe will work. These motors have different timing requirements so some sort of canned table is just a starting point.
Am I missing something? How do the best tuners get timing optimized and verifiable?

[BadHabit]

So the canned timing map is the starting point and the timing that each specific motor needs is found out thru dyno tune correct?

[Don D]

IMHO Yes and no. They will run with a timing map very far off from what the engine wants and needs. For all practical purposes our EFI does not do a very good job of self correcting, adaptive. Therefore the tuner must be able to determine the problems, optimize and adjust the curve. This is a guessing game in many cases with the crude tools they have. Despite that some of the very best tuners muscle through it and get them close. Experience and an advanced understanding of how a performance IC engine works plays a big role. OEMs have much more tools to get these right however their focus is a broad spectrum including and especially including EPA emissions compliance. When and if Dynojet integrates their torque module into the software with automated tuning routines we will make a big leap forward.

[BadHabit]

Thanks for the detailed explanation Don. Helps explain allot. I'm frustrated that they didn't even attempt any timing adjustments after saying they would. Will be interested to see what they say when/if they reply.

[Ohio HD]

I don't know why they wouldn't have made timing changes. Here's the rear and front timing table delta values from the starter MAP and the completed tune. There was definitely changes made by Roeder. Easily seen here and by the before and after dyno sheet.


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[Gordon61]

Those look more like cut n paste tables from a n other config file.  A bit like comparing some of the pre 2015 TC softail timing maps to the post 15 maps.

[Ohio HD]

Those are timing tables from pre-tune and post-tune of a bike I had Roeder Racing tune. What you see is the comparison delta inside of PV. There are not always bug changes in timing.

[98fxstc]

Those are timing tables from pre-tune and post-tune of a bike I had Roeder Racing tune. What you see is the comparison delta inside of PV. There are not always bug changes in timing.

very enlightening Brian 

I thought you had TTS ?

How are the Andres cams ?   

[Ohio HD]

I have TTS on one bike, the other bike that has ABS I decided to use PV. Just to keep things simple with the ABS.

The cams are decent, wakes up a sluggy motor, makes it only half sluggy.   

[BadHabit]

Here is what I received from the tuning ALL tables...

[Ohio HD]

Was the MAP that they used one you supplied? Or did they have one to use? That does certainly raise some question.

[BadHabit]

Roeders has a great reputation. From my research one of the best tuners they had used for many years was outstanding. This tuner left the area to open his own shop out of state a couple of years ago I believe. He posts somewhat frequently online. In my research I found these comments from him about the need to tune timing.

[BadHabit]

Was the MAP that they used one you supplied? Or did they have one to use? That does certainly raise some question.

The map they started with was a basic fuel moto canned map.
The delta is between my timing maps as they received the bike and as I received it with its final tune.

[Ohio HD]

If it were me, I'd ask to speak to George Roeder. Just present to him what you know, and why you are having the discussion. I know he's a reasonable man.

The two items on timing you posted, I guess that is from Chad Groves. He also has now shut his shop down in Virginia to move onto some new endeavors.

[BadHabit]

I was told Friday morning they would talk with the tuner and get back with me soon. That was 1 and 1/2 work days ago. As far as speaking to George when I dropped the bike off and the service mgr told me that tuning the exhaust wasn't needed and a waste of time because they ALL run better with ALL the discs possible it was George who stepped over and reinforced that thought as well. Not to mention he came across like he could have cared less about my business to put it mildly. But like I've said before if the product I receive is as advertised then I can live with the lack of customer service skills. Before I question the job his employees provided I want to give them a chance to explain why they did what they did as well try to  understand about the process they follow to provide the service they provide.

[Ohio HD]

I think your taking a wise approach, and you certainly have the right to inquire. My experience with George has not been that way. When I was picking my bike up, they wanted me to take it for a ride before loading up the trailer. When I came back George wanted to make sure I was happy with the way it ran. He didn't know me from Adam at that point.

I hope you get a solution, or explanation that you're looking for.

[kd]

I am interested in what you find out about the discs.  I am sure they have more effect on tune than just as a sound control device.

[BadHabit]

I am interested in what you find out about the discs.  I am sure they have more effect on tune than just as a sound control device.

He was wrong. I was charged for two additional hours of tuning for them to work with the discs. They started at 12 then 14 and finally 16. They settled on 14 (according to the dyno tune map) Funny thing is though when I picked it up the service mgr (who at first said he would be tuning the bike but upon a later conversation said he was not the tuner just the assistant) said they ended up with all the discs I provided minis one (which would have made it 17)...i pointed out the paperwork said 14 and then me said "oh your right". I get home and the bike actually has 15 on it...But that is another story for another day....

[kd]

Seeing a record of the runs with each change would be good information for comparison.