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Sumping issues solved

Started by BigT, September 24, 2018, 04:13:48 PM

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BigT

  My motor would sump after being run at prolonged high rpm. I installed an S&S pump and plate but still got 11 oz to drain through the crankshaft position sensor opening.  I installed Harley's newly released oil pump cover 62400206 that has an large rubber seal that seals off the crank area from the cam chest and took it for a long high rpm ride. I made sure I shut it down without letting it idle and drained 1oz of oil. $25 fix

Nastytls


koko3052

Now WHY should that be a "$25 fix"? It should be a warranty fix! :angry:

BigT

I might have voided my warranty when I personally tore the motor apart and made it 117"

No Cents

   I've been watching this sumping issues on these M8's closely.
Tman (TR) just came out with his fix for the sumping issue with a scraper that requires the cases to be split and machined to accept his fix...now the MoCo has came out with a $25.00 seal to fix it...and they are not willing to go back to fix the other M8's.  :dgust:  This is going to get very interesting to watch and see what it actually takes to fix the sumping issues.  I hope the best for the OP and I hope he has found the fix.  :up: If someone ever gets this problem truly worked out...my interest in owning a M8 will begin.  :teeth:
   I'm just curious, and not familiar with the M8 cases...but is there a sump plug in the bottom of the case like there is on a twin cam? I was just wondering why you pulled the crank position sensor to check it for sumping, if there is a sump plug in the bottom of the case.  :nix:  I'm about to learn something here.
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

1FSTRK

"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

BigT

Yes I pulled the S&S pump and reinstalled the latest HD pump I had previously ran but with the new cover. 
   M8 cases do have a sump drain like the Twin Cam but the crank position sensor is also at the bottom of the case, has an o ring seal, and held in place with a 1/4" ALLEN bolt

No Cents

  thanks for the info on the sump plug.  :up:
I wasn't aware that the crank position sensor is on the bottom of the M8 cases, and not higher up on the case like a twin cam.  I'm learning.  :SM:
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

PoorUB

Does the M8 oil pump bolt to the crankcase, and nor like the cam plate in a TC?

Then this seal closes up the oil flow trough the main bearing into the cam chest?

I am trying to get a grasp on what this does and why it improves scavenging.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Durwood

Big T, for clarity I am assuming you checked the sump at the sensor to get the one ounce?

BigT

Quote from: PoorUB on September 24, 2018, 07:46:30 PM
Does the M8 oil pump bolt to the crankcase, and nor like the cam plate in a TC?

Then this seal closes up the oil flow trough the main bearing into the cam chest?

I am trying to get a grasp on what this does and why it improves scavenging.
Same set up as the twin cam. Oil pump bolts to the cam plate. Bolting the cam plate to the cases applies pressure against the new seal that seals off oil flow throw the main bearing.

BigT

Quote from: Durwood on September 25, 2018, 04:06:28 AM
Big T, for clarity I am assuming you checked the sump at the sensor to get the one ounce?
Yes I have been checking at the sensor.

Durwood

Quote from: BigT on September 25, 2018, 04:52:01 AM
Quote from: Durwood on September 25, 2018, 04:06:28 AM
Big T, for clarity I am assuming you checked the sump at the sensor to get the one ounce?
Yes I have been checking at the sensor.
Thanks.

Eccool

On one of the M8 pages on Facebook, there is a guy that said that his 2019 FLHTK sumped after 1400 miles.

ekb55

From what I saw of that post he "thinks" it has that issue, the dealer is evaluating it now.

PoorUB

I wonder why sealing off the main bearing improves scavenging?
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Ohio HD

The cam chest and crank case separation becomes more defined.

BVHOG

Quote from: Ohio HD on September 25, 2018, 04:05:35 PM
The cam chest and crank case separation becomes more defined.

So what path does the motor breath through after sealing off the crank area?
If you don't have a sense of humor you probably have no sense at all.

Ohio HD

Quote from: BVHOG on September 25, 2018, 05:32:51 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 25, 2018, 04:05:35 PM
The cam chest and crank case separation becomes more defined.

So what path does the motor breath through after sealing off the crank area?
Maybe it doesn't completely close it off, that's why I said more defined, not sealed off.

kd

I just read the wording on the Tech Tip Bulletin in the opening post.  What a bunch of weasel words.  "Updated"  "no action required" "for awareness only"  "retrofittable to previous model year"  So I ask, why in the #eII did they put the R&D into it and manufacture it?  DUH
KD

1FSTRK

Quote from: Ohio HD on September 25, 2018, 05:40:12 PM
Quote from: BVHOG on September 25, 2018, 05:32:51 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on September 25, 2018, 04:05:35 PM
The cam chest and crank case separation becomes more defined.

So what path does the motor breath through after sealing off the crank area?
Maybe it doesn't completely close it off, that's why I said more defined, not sealed off.

What does the seal look like, is it a flap that allows air from the flywheel compartment to pass into the cam chest but seals if it tries to suck the other way?

Or maybe they are using any crank case pressure to push oil to the return pump.

Big T did you get a picture of the seal?
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

klammer76

September 25, 2018, 08:17:06 PM #21 Last Edit: September 25, 2018, 08:21:42 PM by klammer76
Reports on HDF of a couple 2019's sumping. There is a video of a 2019 CVO draining oil from the bottom case.

Picture of the oil pump seal in this link, post 25.

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1254847-sumping-solved-3.html

Video 2019 CVO:

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/attachments/screamin-eagle-cvo-models/595691d1537915720-2019-cvo-engine-issues-5c9f9cf7-94e0-40e8-b790-148a1c38d33c.mov

1FSTRK

Quote from: klammer76 on September 25, 2018, 08:17:06 PM
Reports on HDF of a couple 2019's sumping. There is a video of a 2019 CVO draining oil from the bottom case.

Picture of the oil pump seal in this link, post 25.

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1254847-sumping-solved-3.html


Thanks
Depending on how tightly that seal is compressed it will definitely allow pressure from the flywheel compartment to escape though the pinion bearing  past the bellow shape side of the seal and into the cam compartment. It looks like they want it to work just like an umbrella valve against the outside of the bearing race. It's design exposes a lot of surface area on the long beveled flap portion to any pressure/vacuum from the flywheel compartment. Basically a simpler rubber version of the S&S reed valve from the Twin cam.

https://www.sscycle.com/docs/default-source/instruction-sheets/510-0373_breather_reed_valve_20150615.pdf?sfvrsn=2
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

BigT

I didn't take a picture of it but by the size of the seal it looked to me that it would completely seal around the bearing isolating the two sections of the cases.


1FSTRK

Quote from: BigT on September 26, 2018, 04:40:25 AM
I didn't take a picture of it but by the size of the seal it looked to me that it would completely seal around the bearing isolating the two sections of the cases.

I am sure it seals in the direction they want it to but if they wanted to hold pressure in the flywheel section they would have hinged the flap the other way so that inside pressure pushed it tighter to the bearing surface.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."