2018 107 sumping

[dheath9994]

Hi just did a oil change on a friend of mines 2018 street glide with the oil cooled M8. During the initial 1,000 mile service his bike came up almost a quart low on the dip stick we chalked this up to possible oil getting burned during break in our local dealer also told us some M8s have been burning a little bit of oil. Fast forward to the second service and again showing a quart low so this time we decided to level the bike off and pull the plug at the bottom of the sump. He gets 16oz of oil out of it, clearly his bike is sumping.

My question is who else has dealt with this and what is the dealership likely to do when he brings it back on a warranty claim?

[misfitJason]

there are multiple threads related to this on this forum and several other forums.  Use the search function and it should give you all you ever wanted to know

[dheath9994]

there are multiple threads related to this on this forum and several other forums.  Use the search function and it should give you all you ever wanted to know

I did search initially I'm seeing really only CVOs or stage 4 bikes being posted. I wanna hear from people with stock or stage 1 107 oil cooled Milwaukee 8s

[HV]

We had one 2018 107 sumping.....but it had high Mileage

[Rusty Steel]

I changed my oil @1100 on 2018 RG.. I got 17 oz. when I pulled the crank sensor.

[Helmwurst]

I am getting sumping now also. 2017 107 Road Glide. Bike now has 5000+ miles, due for service. I have a question out on the post of "new oil pump or not" but no replies yet. Have you tried riding after draining the case and re-checked the oil level in the case? I got 6 oz out after draining the 10oz out on a short 25 mile ride.

[No Cents]

 just wait for a few more months and the MoCo will say 20 ounces out the sump is normal. 
Helmwurst...ride it a few more times and then drain the sump. Let us know what you find.

[HV]

Bottom line is....any more then 6OZ in the sump is too much...they do it randomly....stop check.....drain the sump.....re start...it may never do it again.......the cure as far as I can see is the updated oil pump inner plate with the new seal and reinforced to prevent warping ....Im told all new 2019s have this ....will the Moco update it on older bikes?  NO  unless they sump and do damage then they will address it....nothing a dealer can do ...its all up to the Mothership 

[No Cents]

   ...if they ever get this issue ironed out with these M8's I might have to visit the local dealer and kick the tires on a new one.
    I do hope the MoCo has came up with the fix. I still personally think it has something to do with them not being vented properly...but it's just a thought. I have no real proof as I don't own one.
    HV...have you noticed any additional pressure when you go to unscrew the oil dip stick? I've heard owners of M8's say they couldn't hardly get the dip sticks to unscrew after they rode the bike and everything was good and hot. 

[cbumdumb]

My 2018 filled the crankcase nothing on dipstick  layed over just after idle damn near dropped bike in traffic twin cooled 107. It had about 5300 miles . Although not my bike any more it is being rebuilt . It had fourth gen oil pump piston cooling jets where not a factor . It was stage one only . 

[HV]

Havent seen any venting issues.....New oil pumps are no fix....they need the new updated inside oil pump plate

[DTTJGlide]

That one looks completely different than the one they are showing over at HDF. What's the part number for the one you're showing us?

[Bike31]

62400222 P/N in pic. Apparently some early production CVO's and maybe others were built without this new part with the large seal.

[Ozbob]

Different number for complete assembly by the looks, but sure looks like a diferent casting than above, one above looks billet[attachimg=1]

[HV]

The one I showed was a pre production Billet ...

[08flstf]

I'm in the middle of installing a cam, exhaust, and breather. I checked mine at the crank sensor and got 6 1/2 oz. out. That's with a little over 1700 miles and plenty of visits to the rev limiter. I put in the new back plate with the seal and the latest version of their oil pump. Time will tell.

[Helmwurst]

I'm in the middle of installing a cam, exhaust, and breather. I checked mine at the crank sensor and got 6 1/2 oz. out. That's with a little over 1700 miles and plenty of visits to the rev limiter. I put in the new back plate with the seal and the latest version of their oil pump. Time will tell.

I was getting ready to do the cam swap myself until this oil issue popped up.  Also have a engine vibration that they need to look into. I thought it might be caused by the oil buildup in the case but it is still there after draining the excess oil out of the case.

[rbabos]

   ...if they ever get this issue ironed out with these M8's I might have to visit the local dealer and kick the tires on a new one.
    I do hope the MoCo has came up with the fix. I still personally think it has something to do with them not being vented properly...but it's just a thought. I have no real proof as I don't own one.
    HV...have you noticed any additional pressure when you go to unscrew the oil dip stick? I've heard owners of M8's say they couldn't hardly get the dip sticks to unscrew after they rode the bike and everything was good and hot. 

I somewhat agree on the breather thing. There shouldn't be any pressure build up beyond whatever stiction is on the breather valves to open. That would be next to none, or should be if designed correctly. How a warped pump cover and needing a seal still seems like a desperation attempt at a fix at what might not be the real reason. Pressure forcing the rotor off of the contact surface an losing prime makes more sense to me. Time will tell. Still a "Potty mouth" show, no matter how one looks at it.
Ron

[HV]

They are saying the warped plates allow for Cavitation and loss of oil being removed from the sump....WTF do they know lol

[1FSTRK]

They are saying the warped plates allow for Cavitation and loss of oil being removed from the sump....WTF do they know lol

So they are finding warped pump plates in the bikes that are sumping?
If so wonder why they added a seal between the pump and pinion bearing rather than making thicker, stronger plates.

[Moparnut72]

Donny Peterson has an article in American Iron this month addressing this very issue. He has what I believe to be a valid explanation for why this is happening. He also has an idea on how to prevent this from happening but it is somewhat complicated and would probably require more of a factory redesign in my opinion but he said independent shop should look into it. He also explains how fluid transfer from transmission to primary case is also a part of this problem. All of this is a result of EPA and European regulations preventing venting to the atmosphere. Nonetheless a very interesting read.
kk

 

[rbabos]

They are saying the warped plates allow for Cavitation and loss of oil being removed from the sump....WTF do they know lol

Inlet cavitation would show up in the form of metal damage and would be obvious. I think they, whoever they are are just using fancy word to make themselves sound important. That should have been caught in the early stages of testing a new design, yet here we are in the third year of production, still looking for a cure. I really have to question how well they were tested before ramming them into production. Take the Revolution for example and what real testing does. Sure they blew up a few along the road but when done they had a pre production engine having a durability the rest of the HD line could only dream about. In 15 years, only a shift fork upgrade and a longer fingered internal spring for the shift shaft. Neither was an earth shattering issue yet the factory upgraded both by 2004, back when Willey G gave a "Potty mouth".  Many high mile 2002-2004 originals still running around.  For a flag ship engine like the M8 they sure are screwing the pooch on issues. That's what bugs me the most . They've burned the bridge for me ever buying another new HD. It's become a profit and fk the customer company now.
Ron

[BVHOG]

They are saying the warped plates allow for Cavitation and loss of oil being removed from the sump....WTF do they know lol

Inlet cavitation would show up in the form of metal damage and would be obvious. I think they, whoever they are are just using fancy word to make themselves sound important. That should have been caught in the early stages of testing a new design, yet here we are in the third year of production, still looking for a cure. I really have to question how well they were tested before ramming them into production. Take the Revolution for example and what real testing does. Sure they blew up a few along the road but when done they had a pre production engine having a durability the rest of the HD line could only dream about. In 15 years, only a shift fork upgrade and a longer fingered internal spring for the shift shaft. Neither was an earth shattering issue yet the factory upgraded both by 2004, back when Willey G gave a "Potty mouth".  Many high mile 2002-2004 originals still running around.  For a flag ship engine like the M8 they sure are screwing the pooch on issues. That's what bugs me the most . They've burned the bridge for me ever buying another new HD. It's become a profit and fk the customer company now.
Ron

I wish I could say I thought you were wrong but I feel you are right on the money.    And it has to be some sort of cavitation as if it wasn't then it wouldn't be sumping. Cavitation can be caused by something as simple as too small of an inlet. Much like a hydraulic pump with an obstruction on the tank inlet. And what about the return side? Has anyone considered we might be looking at the wrong end of the total system?

[Scooterfish]

   Just remember there is an auto industry guy at the helm of the mother ship now. The faster you can bring an idea today to production date the greater the profit.

[rbabos]

They are saying the warped plates allow for Cavitation and loss of oil being removed from the sump....WTF do they know lol

Inlet cavitation would show up in the form of metal damage and would be obvious. I think they, whoever they are are just using fancy word to make themselves sound important. That should have been caught in the early stages of testing a new design, yet here we are in the third year of production, still looking for a cure. I really have to question how well they were tested before ramming them into production. Take the Revolution for example and what real testing does. Sure they blew up a few along the road but when done they had a pre production engine having a durability the rest of the HD line could only dream about. In 15 years, only a shift fork upgrade and a longer fingered internal spring for the shift shaft. Neither was an earth shattering issue yet the factory upgraded both by 2004, back when Willey G gave a "Potty mouth".  Many high mile 2002-2004 originals still running around.  For a flag ship engine like the M8 they sure are screwing the pooch on issues. That's what bugs me the most . They've burned the bridge for me ever buying another new HD. It's become a profit and fk the customer company now.
Ron

I wish I could say I thought you were wrong but I feel you are right on the money.    And it has to be some sort of cavitation as if it wasn't then it wouldn't be sumping. Cavitation can be caused by something as simple as too small of an inlet. Much like a hydraulic pump with an obstruction on the tank inlet. And what about the return side? Has anyone considered we might be looking at the wrong end of the total system?

Possibly. After what, four different pumps maybe that isn't the issue but rather a masking agent for the real problem, like you say.  Anyway, it's fun to speculate. Not so much for people that spent onward of 35k and the bike spent more time in the shop then the road. I think I'd blow a gasket if it was my bike.
I also don't buy into Peterson's claim of sumping and gear box transfer caused from the same source. Two separate issues the way I see it.
Ron

[Reddog74usa]

"They've burned the bridge for me ever buying another new HD. It's become a profit and fk the customer company now."
Ron


MEE TOO!!!!!!!!!!!!

HARLEY WHO???

[borno]

If the oil pump was cavitating, you could most probably hear it. It makes a distinctive sound. JMHO

[cbumdumb]

The bridge with me has been burnt trampled and not going to be built again . Looking at alternatives now. Probably my last bike.

[hattitude]

Steve Cole, of TTS, posted this on another forum today, in response to a guy asking what causes sumping and how can he avoid it...... Since Steve posted it on a public forum, I don't think he'd mind me reposting here...

"The truth is no one knows the cause for sure. What I can tell is is what we have found and how we have addressed it. Yes, the sloppy workmanship is part of it. Badly bored cylinders is something that has to be checked. Next would be the piston oilers. HD used a self tapping 8-32 screw that IMHO is too small for the job. Then there is the Oiler gasket, they use two side sticky tape to hold it in place. The tape is the issue as the glue dissolves when in contact with hot oil and then your left with a thin film of clear plastic between the gasket and the Oiler that leaks. To fix it, the best you can is to tap the holes in the case deeper so that the screws tighten properly and remove the tape from the gasket, prior to trying to use them by soaking the gasket in Lacquer thinner first and removing the tape from the gasket. Allow the gasket to dry before installing. We also make and install restrictors that we fit under the piston oilers to limit the oil flow. Last but not least is the Oil pickup area in the case. They are an "as cast" area and there is issues with it allowing too much air to enter the suction side of the oil pump. We re-machine that area and weld an extension tube in that makes the passageway between the pump and the pickup location longer. This keeps the lower pressure from sucking the oil backwards out of the oil pump. This idea is nothing new, as the TwinCam engine had this same issue during development and it delayed its release about 2 years. Extending the pickup length is what solved it then and is what we have followed for the M8. What I can tell you is we have taken 5 engines that were sumping, rebuilt them with these modifications and not one of them has sumpped again. It to early to say this is "the fix" but it sure looks promising."

[kd]

Steve's a smart guy and he knows that doing it once or twice doesn't mean the problem is solved. Let's hope this is it. Too bad it means a tear down to resolve. Maybe a good time to go bigger. 

[Bike31]

I'm waiting to read if SC has had similar experience with M8 Softails...and with what displacement and vintage.

HD has built different M8's. Not all may behave badly...or maybe SC knows otherwise. 

[rbabos]

Steve's a smart guy and he knows that doing it once or twice doesn't mean the problem is solved. Let's hope this is it. Too bad it means a tear down to resolve. Maybe a good time to go bigger. 

Silly me. I expect the MoCo to own up to it and solve it. Then again as long as people keep buying and fixing their fk ups, life will go on.
Ron

[hogpipes1]

Steve Cole, of TTS, posted this on another forum today, in response to a guy asking what causes sumping and how can he avoid it...... Since Steve posted it on a public forum, I don't think he'd mind me reposting here...

"The truth is no one knows the cause for sure. What I can tell is is what we have found and how we have addressed it. Yes, the sloppy workmanship is part of it. Badly bored cylinders is something that has to be checked. Next would be the piston oilers. HD used a self tapping 8-32 screw that IMHO is too small for the job. Then there is the Oiler gasket, they use two side sticky tape to hold it in place. The tape is the issue as the glue dissolves when in contact with hot oil and then your left with a thin film of clear plastic between the gasket and the Oiler that leaks. To fix it, the best you can is to tap the holes in the case deeper so that the screws tighten properly and remove the tape from the gasket, prior to trying to use them by soaking the gasket in Lacquer thinner first and removing the tape from the gasket. Allow the gasket to dry before installing. We also make and install restrictors that we fit under the piston oilers to limit the oil flow. Last but not least is the Oil pickup area in the case. They are an "as cast" area and there is issues with it allowing too much air to enter the suction side of the oil pump. We re-machine that area and weld an extension tube in that makes the passageway between the pump and the pickup location longer. This keeps the lower pressure from sucking the oil backwards out of the oil pump. This idea is nothing new, as the TwinCam engine had this same issue during development and it delayed its release about 2 years. Extending the pickup length is what solved it then and is what we have followed for the M8. What I can tell you is we have taken 5 engines that were sumping, rebuilt them with these modifications and not one of them has sumpped again. It to early to say this is "the fix" but it sure looks promising."

This is what i enjoy reading , a real world fix.  Joe 6 pack isn't going to tear down his new bike  to do all this while under warranty. The co . should pick up on this fix and send steve a big fat $$$ck.

[klammer76]

Steve Cole, of TTS, posted this on another forum today, in response to a guy asking what causes sumping and how can he avoid it...... Since Steve posted it on a public forum, I don't think he'd mind me reposting here...

"The truth is no one knows the cause for sure. What I can tell is is what we have found and how we have addressed it. Yes, the sloppy workmanship is part of it. Badly bored cylinders is something that has to be checked. Next would be the piston oilers. HD used a self tapping 8-32 screw that IMHO is too small for the job. Then there is the Oiler gasket, they use two side sticky tape to hold it in place. The tape is the issue as the glue dissolves when in contact with hot oil and then your left with a thin film of clear plastic between the gasket and the Oiler that leaks. To fix it, the best you can is to tap the holes in the case deeper so that the screws tighten properly and remove the tape from the gasket, prior to trying to use them by soaking the gasket in Lacquer thinner first and removing the tape from the gasket. Allow the gasket to dry before installing. We also make and install restrictors that we fit under the piston oilers to limit the oil flow. Last but not least is the Oil pickup area in the case. They are an "as cast" area and there is issues with it allowing too much air to enter the suction side of the oil pump. We re-machine that area and weld an extension tube in that makes the passageway between the pump and the pickup location longer. This keeps the lower pressure from sucking the oil backwards out of the oil pump. This idea is nothing new, as the TwinCam engine had this same issue during development and it delayed its release about 2 years. Extending the pickup length is what solved it then and is what we have followed for the M8. What I can tell you is we have taken 5 engines that were sumping, rebuilt them with these modifications and not one of them has sumpped again. It to early to say this is "the fix" but it sure looks promising."

This is what i enjoy reading , a real world fix.  Joe 6 pack isn't going to tear down his new bike  to do all this while under warranty. The co . should pick up on this fix and send steve a big fat $$$ck.

Exactly this! So a guy goes out and buys a new M8, then has to spend a ton more money to get it the way it should be from the factory. It has gotten past crazy. I don't know squat about how things are done but I assume Harley doesn't want to try the things that Steve has come up with as the engine would have to be re-certified by the EPA and that would take time and money? So the moco soldiers on playing the percent game, X amount of units sold and only X amount sump, not worth a redesign fix. The majority of HD riders I assume put on very few miles a year (family, work, limited season etc), lets say 5,000 miles (if that). After the warranty runs out they do a factory stage kit etc and now sumping starts to show up. Worst case the motor is fryed and now it's on them or they just ride the stock bike for X years, get some miles on it (that many here do in a year or two) and the bike starts to sump, worst case motor shot. No support then. It's crazy. Many say time to go bigger, lot of $$$ involved with that and having the required fixes applied to the cases if in fact this turns out to be the fix. This is not what the majority of the customers sign up for when buying their dream Harley at a point in time in their life when they finally can. The moco and their response to the issues may be the start of their demise in the end. They are in decline now with the loyalists aging out and/or getting disgusted, younger kids not interested or can"t afford the product. I see it in the posts here. For what ever reason, the moco seems blind to this.

[IronButt70]

So a guy goes out and buys a new M8, then has to spend a ton more money to get it the way it should be from the factory. It has gotten past crazy. I don't know squat about how things are done but I assume Harley doesn't want to try the things that Steve has come up with as the engine would have to be re-certified by the EPA and that would take time and money? So the moco soldiers on playing the percent game, X amount of units sold and only X amount sump, not worth a redesign fix. The majority of HD riders I assume put on very few miles a year (family, work, limited season etc), lets say 5,000 miles (if that). After the warranty runs out they do a factory stage kit etc and now sumping starts to show up. Worst case the motor is fryed and now it's on them or they just ride the stock bike for X years, get some miles on it (that many here do in a year or two) and the bike starts to sump, worst case motor shot. No support then. It's crazy. Many say time to go bigger, lot of $$$ involved with that and having the required fixes applied to the cases if in fact this turns out to be the fix. This is not what the majority of the customers sign up for when buying their dream Harley at a point in time in their life when they finally can. The moco and their response to the issues may be the start of their demise in the end. They are in decline now with the loyalists aging out and/or getting disgusted, younger kids not interested or can"t afford the product. I see it in the posts here. For what ever reason, the moco seems blind to this.

BINGO!!!!!!!  We have a winner

[Reddog74usa]

I wonder how many units they are moving now compared to how many they would sell if they stepped up and fixed the M8 issues. I see a lot of riders on here wanting a new bike but are waiting to see how this turns out before writing the check, myself included. I also hear others off the forums saying there waiting to see so who knows if there losing or making money as a result of the way there dealing with these issues. One thing for sure, there rep is in bad shape and with Indian eatin there lunch at the track they've got a big hill to climb to get back on track. If they continue in the direction there going it won't be long before some big changes come down and they aren't going to be good.

[Scottr]

The bridge with me has been burnt trampled and not going to be built again . Looking at alternatives now. Probably my last bike.

Well then why are you on this forum !

[Thermodyne]

It seems to me, that by sealing off the back of the pump to the case, they just eliminated any case to chest breathing that was taking place through the bearing.  Changing the dynamics of how the crank case and cam chest breath.  Sealing that flow through the main bearing would increase the pressure differential between the two areas as the pistons alter the volume of the crankcase.  And that would probably help push the oil back into the pump.  Re-priming the pump.  But that also changes how the bearing is lubed.  I would assume that there is enough oil pumped out the rear of the pump to keep the bearing lubed.   

With a single scavenge rotor pulling on both areas of the case, it should be able to remove the oil from both, unless it sucks one dry and looses efficiency because its moving a high volume of air.  Or partially air locked.  The extra push on the oil in the crankcase would in theory push it into the pump, freeing up the air lock.

The MoCo had similar issues with the early TC, and with some outside help, corrected it by redesigning the passages and rotor volume in the pump.  I assume that this is what they were attempting with the upgraded pumps for the M8.  It was never completely addressed in the TC.  But it was also much less noticeable for the average rider, not having much effect until higher rpms.

I really think the correct fix is a three stage pump.  But that is prolly way more than the MoCo would like to spend on it.  Seeing as down the road they could be looking at a lot of warranty retrofits.   

[cbumdumb]

The bridge with me has been burnt trampled and not going to be built again . Looking at alternatives now. Probably my last bike.

Well then why are you on this forum !

Because you oh so intelligent one I still own one of these slumping beast and last I checked still a free country okay cup cake

[rbabos]

It seems to me, that by sealing off the back of the pump to the case, they just eliminated any case to chest breathing that was taking place through the bearing.  Changing the dynamics of how the crank case and cam chest breath.  Sealing that flow through the main bearing would increase the pressure differential between the two areas as the pistons alter the volume of the crankcase.  And that would probably help push the oil back into the pump.  Re-priming the pump.  But that also changes how the bearing is lubed.  I would assume that there is enough oil pumped out the rear of the pump to keep the bearing lubed.   

With a single scavenge rotor pulling on both areas of the case, it should be able to remove the oil from both, unless it sucks one dry and looses efficiency because its moving a high volume of air.  Or partially air locked.  The extra push on the oil in the crankcase would in theory push it into the pump, freeing up the air lock.

The MoCo had similar issues with the early TC, and with some outside help, corrected it by redesigning the passages and rotor volume in the pump.  I assume that this is what they were attempting with the upgraded pumps for the M8.  It was never completely addressed in the TC.  But it was also much less noticeable for the average rider, not having much effect until higher rpms.

I really think the correct fix is a three stage pump.  But that is prolly way more than the MoCo would like to spend on it.  Seeing as down the road they could be looking at a lot of warranty retrofits.   

All too common. Not until they are made to look like fools from someone else, will they will sneak it into production. A long period for retrofits on warranty expired bikes is also $$$$$ in their pocket.
Ron

[r0de_runr]

My 18 Softail Heritage 114 sumped.

[sandrooney]

Sorry to hear. Don't hear of too many softails sumping I think this is only the 3rd one I have read about. What did they do to fix it?

[Timber0472]

Out of curiosity how much oil out of CP sensor is "acceptable"? I pulled roughly 8oz out of mine one time and once 10oz. The bike runs good and pulls hard. I was having an issue with vibrations but I think that was a primary issue and has been resolved.

[sandrooney]

Harley's spec is 6oz. Are you letting it idle upright for a couple minutes before checking the oil?

[Timber0472]

Harley's spec is 6oz. Are you letting it idle upright for a couple minutes before checking the oil?

No. should I? I just rode to work and back. Then shut it off and pulled it. About a 15/20 min ride. I'm not really concerned about warranty at this point. I put a FM 117 kit in it so that is already long gone. I was having a whining issue and I think its coming from the damn comp, but not sure at the moment, so I was thinking if I'm in the shop for comp to be checked I may just ask about oil pump fix. Bought the bike only 6 months ago. Was built in June of 2018 according to VIN so it should have the latest oil pump, but there is no seal on the pump.

[sandrooney]

I believe the SB1450 says to let it idle up right for a minute or two then pull the sensor right away.