March 29, 2024, 06:07:34 AM

News:


Sumping issues solved

Started by BigT, September 24, 2018, 04:13:48 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Thermodyne

The revised rear cover only fits the MoCo pump.

But if you spring for the S&S pump, you don't need it, since that pump has two scavenging stages.  One for each area of the case.  And theoretically, should be immune to the issue affecting the oem pumps.

HV

HV HTT Admin ..Ride Safe ...But Ride informed with HTT !!
Skype HV.HTT

sandrooney

Patience is such a waste of time .

BigT

Quote from: Ccdan on January 25, 2019, 10:45:28 AM
My 19 RGS sumped 80oz after several 120+ mph bursts on the highway.
Bike was tuned totally stock, did not have updated oil pump with seal.
Since then I have done a stage 2 with S&S oil kit, now has 16oz in sump from plug consistently when ever I check it, which is very often.
Dump the S&S pump and plate and install the stock setup with the new pump cover with the oil seal.

Maddo Snr

Quote from: HV on January 25, 2019, 04:13:44 PM
Quote from: sandrooney on January 25, 2019, 08:45:29 AM
HV Of those 10 were any of them softail?


NONE  :teeth:

Gee, surely there's something we can take away from this...
What is different between the Softail II and Tourer motor installations?
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

DTTJGlide

Are there any disadvantages to running the new plate & seal? It is said to change the way the engine breathes since it is sealing on passage of air flow from the sump to the camchest. I have a 4-17 build RG with 41K & it has never shown signs of sumping, when I installed the S&S 475 cam I did install the latest gen oil pump for insurance. I've asked Fuel Moto about the newer pump & later about the new cover & seal & they said they didn't see a need if I hadn't seen any sumping symptoms. They are still running the original pump with no seal on their test mule with many hours of testing in many different configurations. Looking for expert opinions on the advantages & disadvantages. TIA

Md8181

I have an 18 built in I believe March of 18.  What pump would be in it?   Should I just do the new cover and save the cash on the S&S pump/plate OR go ahead and go with the S&S pump/plate??
My bike has only 1700 miles on it. If it has sumped I haven't known or known how to check.

Durwood

Quote from: DTTJGlide on January 25, 2019, 08:37:54 PM
Are there any disadvantages to running the new plate & seal? It is said to change the way the engine breathes since it is sealing on passage of air flow from the sump to the camchest. I have a 4-17 build RG with 41K & it has never shown signs of sumping, when I installed the S&S 475 cam I did install the latest gen oil pump for insurance. I've asked Fuel Moto about the newer pump & later about the new cover & seal & they said they didn't see a need if I hadn't seen any sumping symptoms. They are still running the original pump with no seal on their test mule with many hours of testing in many different configurations. Looking for expert opinions on the advantages & disadvantages. TIA
My opinion is it's cheap, and if it fixes it? Why not?

My bike has thousands of dyno runs and up until recently never sumped. 10,000+ miles and has not been babied by any means.

I don't have the seal in mine. It has the original first run pump for now, but is going to be addressed as soon as I have time.

We drained 2 quarts of oil from the crankcase after limping it home from a 100 mile ride. Glad it happened just a few miles from the house.

HV

Quote from: Maddo Snr on January 25, 2019, 08:31:16 PM
Quote from: HV on January 25, 2019, 04:13:44 PM
Quote from: sandrooney on January 25, 2019, 08:45:29 AM
HV Of those 10 were any of them softail?


NONE  :teeth:

Gee, surely there's something we can take away from this...
What is different between the Softail II and Tourer motor installations?


Biggest Diff I see is there are very few New Softails out there......perhaps 1% of our sales.......If no one is riding them they are not going to Fail... :SM:
HV HTT Admin ..Ride Safe ...But Ride informed with HTT !!
Skype HV.HTT

08flstf

Couple months ago as I was getting ready to do my exhaust and cam I checked my oil in the crankcase. I drained it at the cp sensor and got 6 1/2 oz out of it. Didn't think that was too bad but still a little more than what I thought should be there. When I installed my cam I also installed the latest version oil pump and the new back plate with the rubber seal. I checked again yesterday but drained at the sump plug instead of the cp sensor (I know, not apples to apples) because looking under the bike the plug is actually a little lower than the sensor. I got 7 1/2 oz out. Since I'm about to do a 124 bolt on kit I'm not real confident the new seal is the answer so I'll be getting the Feuling oil pump and camplate just for peace of mind.

Durwood

I also drain from the sump plug.

There is 5oz more from there after draining from the CPS.

The Fueling race pump and plate kit is the way I will probably go as well.

Billy

Is the Feuling pump a 2 or 3 cavity pump?
Lazyness is the Mother of Invention

Durwood

Quote from: Billy on January 26, 2019, 09:56:23 AM
Is the Feuling pump a 2 or 3 cavity pump?
It's a 2 stage pump.

DTTJGlide

Quote from: Durwood on January 26, 2019, 06:34:26 AM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on January 25, 2019, 08:37:54 PM
Are there any disadvantages to running the new plate & seal? It is said to change the way the engine breathes since it is sealing on passage of air flow from the sump to the camchest. I have a 4-17 build RG with 41K & it has never shown signs of sumping, when I installed the S&S 475 cam I did install the latest gen oil pump for insurance. I've asked Fuel Moto about the newer pump & later about the new cover & seal & they said they didn't see a need if I hadn't seen any sumping symptoms. They are still running the original pump with no seal on their test mule with many hours of testing in many different configurations. Looking for expert opinions on the advantages & disadvantages. TIA
My opinion is it's cheap, and if it fixes it? Why not?

My bike has thousands of dyno runs and up until recently never sumped. 10,000+ miles and has not been babied by any means.

I don't have the seal in mine. It has the original first run pump for now, but is going to be addressed as soon as I have time.

We drained 2 quarts of oil from the crankcase after limping it home from a 100 mile ride. Glad it happened just a few miles from the house.
Thanks again for the quick reply, seems unusual that it would go that long before it decided to sump, doesn't inspire confidence.

Maddo Snr

Quote from: BigT on September 24, 2018, 04:13:48 PM...I installed Harley's newly released oil pump cover 62400206 that has an large rubber seal that seals off the crank area from the cam chest and took it for a long high rpm ride. I made sure I shut it down without letting it idle and drained 1oz of oil. $25 fix

Could someone brighter than me please explain how SEALING OFF the location of the oil pooling (crankcase) from the point where the scavenge port picks up the sumped oil (camchest floor) can INCREASE the amount of oil scavenged?

At its simplest, this issue is the scavenge pump failing to evacuate the crankcase residual oil. Cutting off the oil flow to the scavenge side of the pump seems counter-intuitive.

I have some ideas that I want to check when I get my new M8 this week. My basic feeling is that the pressure differential between the oil tank void and the camchest void becomes greater than the scavenge pumps pressure generating capability, either that or there's some type of cavitation in the scavenge side of the pump.

I'm thinking the former. Old B motor Twinkies used a similar system for 10+ years with no issues. Can anyone shoot this theory down?




2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

rigidthumper

Quote from: Maddo Snr on January 26, 2019, 02:44:08 PM
Quote from: BigT on September 24, 2018, 04:13:48 PM...I installed Harley's newly released oil pump cover 62400206 that has an large rubber seal that seals off the crank area from the cam chest and took it for a long high rpm ride. I made sure I shut it down without letting it idle and drained 1oz of oil. $25 fix

Could someone brighter than me please explain how SEALING OFF the location of the oil pooling (crankcase) from the point where the scavenge port picks up the sumped oil (camchest floor) can INCREASE the amount of oil scavenged?

At its simplest, this issue is the scavenge pump failing to evacuate the crankcase residual oil. Cutting off the oil flow to the scavenge side of the pump seems counter-intuitive.
It doesn't cut off flow to the scavenge side- it seals the pinion bearing
I have some ideas that I want to check when I get my new M8 this week. My basic feeling is that the pressure differential between the oil tank void and the camchest void becomes greater than the scavenge pumps pressure generating capability, either that or there's some type of cavitation in the scavenge side of the pump.
I'm thinking the former. Old B motor Twinkies used a similar system for 10+ years with no issues. Can anyone shoot this theory down?
The seal is on the back side of the pump- it effectively reduces air movement into the cam cavity through the pinion bearing, and applies that pressure to the oil sitting in the bottom of the flywheel cavity, pushing it into the scavenge side of the oil pump, reducing cavitation.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

rbabos

Quote from: rigidthumper on January 27, 2019, 07:04:43 AM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on January 26, 2019, 02:44:08 PM
Quote from: BigT on September 24, 2018, 04:13:48 PM...I installed Harley's newly released oil pump cover 62400206 that has an large rubber seal that seals off the crank area from the cam chest and took it for a long high rpm ride. I made sure I shut it down without letting it idle and drained 1oz of oil. $25 fix

Could someone brighter than me please explain how SEALING OFF the location of the oil pooling (crankcase) from the point where the scavenge port picks up the sumped oil (camchest floor) can INCREASE the amount of oil scavenged?

At its simplest, this issue is the scavenge pump failing to evacuate the crankcase residual oil. Cutting off the oil flow to the scavenge side of the pump seems counter-intuitive.
It doesn't cut off flow to the scavenge side- it seals the pinion bearing
I have some ideas that I want to check when I get my new M8 this week. My basic feeling is that the pressure differential between the oil tank void and the camchest void becomes greater than the scavenge pumps pressure generating capability, either that or there's some type of cavitation in the scavenge side of the pump.
I'm thinking the former. Old B motor Twinkies used a similar system for 10+ years with no issues. Can anyone shoot this theory down?
The seal is on the back side of the pump- it effectively reduces air movement into the cam cavity through the pinion bearing, and applies that pressure to the oil sitting in the bottom of the flywheel cavity, pushing it into the scavenge side of the oil pump, reducing cavitation.
The pump should not require it to be force fed. It should suck and with a 2-1 ratio approximately of scavenge to feed it should almost starve for oil on the intake side. To me, that seal deal is some form of bandaid for the real problem and most likely inlet design or pump itself.
Ron

PoorUB

Quote from: rbabos on January 27, 2019, 09:56:52 AM
The pump should not require it to be force fed. It should suck and with a 2-1 ratio approximately of scavenge to feed it should almost starve for oil on the intake side. To me, that seal deal is some form of bandaid for the real problem and most likely inlet design or pump itself.
Ron

I also don't understand how keeping the oil trapped in the crankcase cures sumping. I would really like to hear that explanation.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Maddo Snr

Quote from: rbabos on January 27, 2019, 09:56:52 AM

The pump should not require it to be force fed. It should suck and with a 2-1 ratio approximately of scavenge to feed it should almost starve for oil on the intake side. To me, that seal deal is some form of band-aid for the real problem and most likely inlet design or pump itself.
Ron

Ron, what do you think of my thought that the tank might be pressurising to the point where the scavenging side of the pump doesn't have the pressure capability to pump against the tank pressure?

If the problem was as simple as the pump design, they'd all do it. The issue is so random.  :scratch:

Can anyone tell me: we're B motor Twin Cams' oil tanks vented?
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

Ohio HD

Oil bag vents back to the case. 

rbabos

Quote from: Maddo Snr on January 27, 2019, 12:06:53 PM
Quote from: rbabos on January 27, 2019, 09:56:52 AM

The pump should not require it to be force fed. It should suck and with a 2-1 ratio approximately of scavenge to feed it should almost starve for oil on the intake side. To me, that seal deal is some form of band-aid for the real problem and most likely inlet design or pump itself.
Ron

Ron, what do you think of my thought that the tank might be pressurising to the point where the scavenging side of the pump doesn't have the pressure capability to pump against the tank pressure?

If the problem was as simple as the pump design, they'd all do it. The issue is so random.  :scratch:

Can anyone tell me: we're B motor Twin Cams' oil tanks vented?
Can't see that much pressure. As a pump, like any oil pump it's capable of some serious pressure if it's allowed to build up and in feed for engine. The tank, case and cam chest all share a common vent point which is the breather circuit. As Brian mentioned, the B motor like the TC version vents from top of tank to case and again the common exit point being the head breathers.
Basically the inlet and outlet sides of the pump are under the same conditions. It will pump if both are under pressure or under vacumm since there is no differential between inlet and outlet sides. At least in the real world. I've always wondered about the interaction between the feed and scavenge side as one possible cause, as in the feed side inducing oil where it shouldn't or possibly screwing the prime on the scavenge rotor. I really don't know "Potty mouth" about it but I do know in this day and age with highly qualified people with pump designs, this nonsense should have been nipped in the bud long ago.
Ron

Maddo Snr

Quote from: rbabos on January 27, 2019, 01:01:45 PM

Can't see that much pressure. As a pump, like any oil pump it's capable of some serious pressure if it's allowed to build up and in feed for engine. The tank, case and cam chest all share a common vent point which is the breather circuit. As Brian mentioned, the B motor like the TC version vents from top of tank to case and again the common exit point being the head breathers.
Basically the inlet and outlet sides of the pump are under the same conditions. It will pump if both are under pressure or under vacuum since there is no differential between inlet and outlet sides.
At least in the real world. I've always wondered about the interaction between the feed and scavenge side as one possible cause, as in the feed side inducing oil where it shouldn't or possibly screwing the prime on the scavenge rotor. I really don't know "Potty mouth" about it but I do know in this day and age with highly qualified people with pump designs, this nonsense should have been nipped in the bud long ago.
Ron

Thanks Ron. Being new to HDs and my first M8 I'm darn keen to see it doesn't blow up. There's 37,500 reasons for that, all dollars.  :crook:

It seems like S&S are on the right track with their separate scavenge systems for crank and cambox, I like that idea. If the issue is the camchest running dry and then cavitating the scavenge pump, the S&S should be the fix.

Totally agreed re: your feelings, in this age of engineering you have to wonder about a) the ability of their design engineers, and b) their testing program. This has gone on for many years from what I can gather, not good enough when they're asking $38,000 for a FLHX here.

Thanks for your input, always much appreciated.  :up:
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

trex

Wouldn't going from a dry sump design to and oil pan wet sump design eliminate the problem?

Maddo Snr

Quote from: rigidthumper on January 27, 2019, 07:04:43 AM

The seal is on the back side of the pump- it effectively reduces air movement into the cam cavity through the pinion bearing, and applies that pressure to the oil sitting in the bottom of the flywheel cavity, pushing it into the scavenge side of the oil pump, reducing cavitation.

So, effectively trying to force-prime the in-bye (crankcase) side of the scavenge pump, which is bridge-ported to the in-bye side (camchest). The logic of this suggests that oil will cross-flow and pool in the camchest keeping the bridge-ported in-bye side of the pump under oil.

Seems like a decent attempt, as is S&S's separation concept.
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

cmashark

Quote from: Durwood on January 26, 2019, 06:34:26 AM
Quote from: DTTJGlide on January 25, 2019, 08:37:54 PM
Are there any disadvantages to running the new plate & seal? It is said to change the way the engine breathes since it is sealing on passage of air flow from the sump to the camchest. I have a 4-17 build RG with 41K & it has never shown signs of sumping, when I installed the S&S 475 cam I did install the latest gen oil pump for insurance. I've asked Fuel Moto about the newer pump & later about the new cover & seal & they said they didn't see a need if I hadn't seen any sumping symptoms. They are still running the original pump with no seal on their test mule with many hours of testing in many different configurations. Looking for expert opinions on the advantages & disadvantages. TIA
My opinion is it's cheap, and if it fixes it? Why not?

My bike has thousands of dyno runs and up until recently never sumped. 10,000+ miles and has not been babied by any means.

I don't have the seal in mine. It has the original first run pump for now, but is going to be addressed as soon as I have time.

We drained 2 quarts of oil from the crankcase after limping it home from a 100 mile ride. Glad it happened just a few miles from the house.

Did you do a compression test or a leak down test since it has sumped?  Just curious if anything changed since you put your 124 together.

Chris
2021 FLHXSE