Oil pressure drops from 30 to 0

[Burnout]

My perspective is just how the oil looks when drained hot.
And how the motor sounds hot.
Leave out all the chemistry and pressure ratings.
The heavier oil cushions a lot of engine noise.
To me noise = wear, combined with the experience I have had with my EVO as testament.

I will wave off the comment about HD and oil recommendation.
Because that has remained through the Twin Cam line even with the oiling system changes.
Regarding oil coolers they are not a fancy trinket, look at the SVO high output models that come with coolers.
Coolers have always been offered as an accy, mostly due of the MoCo's marketing strategy.

[thumper 823]

This is on the very  edge of oil as war I go.
To be objective and truthful-
Oil viscosity measured at a drain plug is like doing a valve job with a chain saw.
One has to set poor points measured and regulated with all the same hoops to jump to go through.
The best part?
It has already been done for you!

This does not take much research to understand 60 weight oil @ 180 deg has the same viscosity as 5w30.
To say much else you have to argue with experts in the world of chemical oil labs analysis.
I am taking my leave with this nonsense.
You notice I have NOT mentioned a brand-because when you start your research it will become GLARINGLY obvious who is the makers of the best oils.
Again I suggest you all do your own research.
It is just not that hard.

Here is an EZ read to get you started-

https://www.cycleworld.com/sport-rider/oils-well-that-ends-well-part-2#page-6

PS I dont sell oils.

[Burnout]

All oil and other religious topics should be locked at an early stage.

[thumper 823]

I don't think I /we are advocating a certain brand of oil.
At least I am not.
I did not mention Castrol for better or worse. .
In fact, i am advocating everyone does their own research rather than be led dwn the paths of arrogance and or ignorance.
Knowledge is the key to freedom.
To ignore what is b4 us and be led by the nose is just plain stupid.
To enjoy the deeper thinking of engineering is a pleasure for me.
To stay objective and not inset emotion is a lot of peoples shortcomings.
As I stated -everyone should read the reports
Viscosity is only one of the values to look at.
PSI is prolly a lot more important.
If we read the reports and charts there is no reason for oil wars anyway.
just go with what shows you to be the best.
Simple

[Dan89flstc]

Right there in the front section of the manual (the part no one reads)
For even a twin cam motor it says,
"in ambient temps over 80° to use 60w oil"
Not 20-50
To be able to use 20-50 oil in high ambient temps you need a cooler.

Evidently you don`t read the manual either...

Here`s what it says in the service manual for an `89 Evo:

[attach=0,msg1295736]

Service Manual 2016:
[attach=1,msg1295736]

[MikeL]

What happened to 97dyna??? This conversation got a little off track in regards to his problem..........
JW what happened to you happened to me also. Now when I do external oil pump work I contact cement the gasket onto the pump body and to the cover. This keeps the gasket in place and also helps keep the gasket from squeezing out.
I have a few bikes, Pan, Shovel Evo and twin cams. I use 60w works for all.


                                                                                                       MIKE

[JW113]

You beat me to it, Dan.


In fact, the manual basically says "use 20w50, but if  you can't get 20w50, use the straight weights but only about the temperatures listed".

[attach=0]

And my TC manual suggests some diesel oils if you can't get HD. And note, they're ALL multi-vis.

[attach=1]

Regarding an oil cooler. You ONLY use an oil cooler if you need it. Too cool oil is worse than too hot oil. By it's very nature, internal combustion engines create a lot of water, as that's one of the by-products of combustion. Much of it finds its way into the crankcase, and thus the oil. Which then turns to acid. The only way to ensure the water is not in the oil is for the oil to get hot. As in, higher than the boiling point of water.

Twin cams, with their lean FI air/fuel ratios and oil cooled pistons, no problem. Pans/Shovels, with their iron cylinders, no problem. Evos? Stock-ish Evos? Unless you are running hard on a very hot day, the oil never really gets much higher than 212deg. At least mine have not. So yes, a problem. As I posted earlier, did about 30 miles at 80mph on a 75deg day, and the oil never got over 180deg. Think I need an oil cooler??? What I need (and I do) is to change the oil a lot!

I think the ONLY time, riding an EVO, that I thought an oil cooler might be nice was riding west on I-40 out of Needles, CA, in July, uphill on a long ass grade, into a headwind, with  air temp of 117 deg. Yes, the oil got pretty smoking hot, no doubt. Probably should have slowed down and coaxed the bike along in 3rd gear, but you know how stupid kid can be.

My philosophy on oil: if what you're using is working for you, use it!

-JW

[JW113]

Hey Mikel, it's funny you mention that. When I was surfing around to see if anybody had a slick way to pop the outer C ring off, I saw a video by Tatro Machine. Did not learn and C ring tricks, but watched him put an oil pump on an Evo motor. He used some Gaska-cinch on the gasket, and I thought "oh man, I sure hope you don't have to remove that crap any time soon". In general, I hate gluing gaskets to aluminum surfaces, as you (or at least I) do more damage to the metal getting them back off than what benefit it provides. But, after my little incedent, might have to rethink that.


Actually, had I pre-started all 6 screws (which I did the second time), would have saved myself a lot of work. Instead I just dangled the gasket from the top two, snugged them up, then put the cover on. Live and learn!

-JW

[thumper 823]

I have been using 20/50  in Harleys since the early 1970s.
It is more like HD does not understand modern lubrication (along with a bunch of other things.)


 

[fbn ent]

  The way those charts read I'd be doing 7 oil changes a season......NOT!  :slap:S

[Hossamania]

Aren't those charts based on regular oil, as opposed to synthetic? Does synthetic change the structure of those charts?

[rageglide]

JW, Worst situation I can remember was when we were stuck in traffic in Austin... blistering hot and your Hi-4 started acting up.  So... I'd say an oil cooler is probably appropriate for riding in states that are hot as hell and government is stupid enough not to allow lane splitting.   

[JW113]

The way those charts read I'd be doing 7 oil changes a season......NOT!  :slap:S

Is anybody actually reading the text about the chart? It says "USE 20W50". For all temperature conditions. End of story! It also says DON'T use 50 or 60 if the temp is cold.

-JW

[JW113]

JW, Worst situation I can remember was when we were stuck in traffic in Austin... blistering hot and your Hi-4 started acting up.  So... I'd say an oil cooler is probably appropriate for riding in states that are hot as hell and government is stupid enough not to allow lane splitting.   

Yeah that was pretty hot in Austin, but that was sitting at a standstill, on the freeway, in 100+ deg. No load on the engine, just no air flow for cooling, and yes the Hi-4 bit the farm. I don't think the oil was complaining though. That time out of Needles was the only time I've ever been rolling along on a bike when it went into spontaneous detonation because the engine was so hot. Dunno. Both cases, pretty hot. Hot weather sucks.


-JW

[thumper 823]

a HOT day in Sturgis, - one can spend over an hour doing flat foot through the twn light to ligh never get out of 1st gear!
Over a 100 deg heat with a million other bikes beside you.
Never a problem for me.

[fbn ent]

The way those charts read I'd be doing 7 oil changes a season......NOT! 

Is anybody actually reading the text about the chart? It says "USE 20W50". For all temperature conditions. End of story! It also says DON'T use 50 or 60 if the temp is cold.

-JW

Well JW, obviously I didn't. Thanks for pointing that out 

As for flat footing in Sturgis, that is the main reason I run Synthetics although I manage to avoid most of it....

[MikeL]

JW  If and when the time comes to remove the glued gaskets off aluminum zip strip works quite well. Also if you have it auto parts store carb cleaner in a paint the can works good also.
When removing the oil pump I remove the c clip and pitch it in the garbage can. I replace it with axial retaining ring that can be installed with circlip angle pliers. I'd send a picture but havn't figured that out yet.
No cooler no problem use Synthetic


                                                                                                       MIKE

[MikeL]

I guess I figured out the picture situation 

                                                                                                 MIKE

[guppymech]

JW, if you don't already have some, get some Hylomar Universal Blue or Hylomar M grade.  It's a great non hardening sealant that can hold gaskets in place and won't plug oil galleys like RTV can.

http://www.hylomarsealant.com/_resources/_html/products.html

[JW113]

Mike, I was wondering HD did not use a standard external retaining ring instead of that wire C clip. If it comes to it, may give that a try next time.

Guppy, yes I have Hylomar and used to use it all the time. On paper gaskets, anyway. These days I love the Foamet type gaskets. Don't need sealer, don't stick to the metal, and can be reused. And if the mating surfaces are flat, don't leak either. I had not thought about Hylomar on the oil pump gasket. Perhaps the only reason I might be concerned is that even with Hylomar, a little bit oozes out of the seam after tightened, and I'm not sure I'd want that stuff in the oil pump or plunger valve.

-JW

[remington007]

Years ago i tried a circlip instead of the c-clip. There was contact from the eyes of the clip with the outer cover.

[KatalogKarl]

JW. following thread here. Glad you found out problem of loss oil pressure. Crappy workmanship especially in the oiling areas causes more headaches. Been there. Especially when someone else does not pay attention. Okay so the thread is changed more or less to oil. My 87(32k miles) has had issues yes with a H4 ignition shitting out as a dyna as well. Was never a problem when I lived north. Heat blows. Ran 20/50 as it is in my manual but not here in FL. it may last about 100 or 200 miles before problem arises as yours. 1k or 900 at idle oil light flickers and oil pressure not readable. All units changed Gauges and sending units. So I started with single weight and had success until recently. A 200 mile 95 air temp jaunt with the Ol Lady and when oil got up into 175 and 220 temp( wanted to burn the water off oil) not until back into civilization did oil light begin flickering. I did not panic. Oil pump was changed a few years ago to a good used S&S. Once engine is revved light goes out. Ok so I will ask and Sending me a PM is better, I have been out and away from HTTP and instead of dinosaur oil what is protection best for my 87 EVO. (Not shovel) since I have plenty of previous for them. Just asking since you are somewhat in same temp at times?.karl

[JW113]

Hey Karl, yes it does get on the hot side here in San Jose, but only for a few days a year. Most of the time it's in the 70s or low 80s. I think the oil light flickering at idle on a hot day is normal, even says so in the HD owners manual. Especially if just raising the rpm slightly above idle causes it to go off. In my case, the oil light was on solid, and I had to raise the rpm by a lot to get it to go off. I think yours is probably fine.

-JW

[Deye76]

"I think the oil light flickering at idle on a hot day is normal"

It is. A very good old time engine builder built me a Panhead with a Shovel oil pump, at a stop light the oil light would flicker. I freaked first time it happened, he said don't sweat it, and I didn't.......for 11 years, then sold the bike and the next owner ran it for another 3 before I lost track of it. As for oil, 20w-50 is a no brain'er, especially in a Evo where everything expands & contracts more uniform than previous motors with cast iron cylinders & aluminum heads. Myself and a couple friends ran 20w-50 in our last Shovels for a lot of miles, many out west, with the same longevity as straight 60 wt. 

[JW113]

I don't understand why people don't understand that 20W50 acts like 20W when it's cold, and acts like 50W when it's hot. If you think that "thick"oil is good for any motor, why not pump the crankcase full of  axle grease?

-JW