HarleyTechTalk

I recently bought a 75 Electraglide which I intend to restore with some minor custom touches and upgrades. It's running the stock Bendix carb and will be used only for cruising. I'm not a huge fan of points and intend converting to electronic ignition. I'm leaning towards the Ultima module with maybe an Accel coil. I know there are concerns around the effects of heat in the nose cone. I was just wondering if a stock Evo ignition with just the pick up in the nosecone might work on a stock shovel? Would VOES be essential? If not, who has experience of the Ultima module and are the Chinese coils in the kit junk?

Ultima ignition works fine. I'm using a twin tec in mine but they are more expensive. I tried a complete stock ignition from a evo on mine years ago. It ran but seemed to lack power and it would high idle coming to a stop. So from my experience I would not wast your time with a stock ignition.

You can install a stock Evo era ignition on your Shovelhead, no problem. If you don't want to connect up a VOES, then ground that wire from the module. I have the Ultima ignition and coils on my Evo, so far so good. The module appears to be a re-labeled Dyny 2000i.

Does the bike have a kick starter?

Just FYI, I have points on my Shovelhead. No issues with it, either.

-JW

Bike is pretty much bone stock so no kicker. Thanks for the replies. Ultima it is. Maybe keep the points in the toolbar as backup. Don't completely hate points but they're mechanical and can wear out. Simplicity is the key.HTT to the rescue as usual.

76 FLH, I ran the Dynatek 2000i on the stock motor and then upgraded to dual plug coils when I put the dual plugged 93"er in the bike. The ignition held up for 16 years like that. I replaced it last year with the Ultima when it finally started to flake out on me. I will admit the shovel has not seen many miles since 2013 but I would not hesitate to do it again.

I have yet to uncover that bike this year.  I think I just decided what I am doing this weekend. 

Quote from: 76shuvlinoff on April 07, 2021, 02:52:03 AM
76 FLH, I ran the Dynatek 2000i on the stock motor and then upgraded to dual plug coils when I put the dual plugged 93"er in the bike. The ignition held up for 16 years like that. I replaced it last year with the Ultima when it finally started to flake out on me. I will admit the shovel has not seen many miles since 2013 but I would not hesitate to do it again.

I have yet to uncover that bike this year.  I think I just decided what I am doing this weekend. 

Bringing it to Dave's ?

QuoteBringing it to Dave's ?

I am thinking that's not what I was thinking. 

On the ultima dont ground the voes wire if you are not using voes.

Quote from: 76shuvlinoff on April 09, 2021, 03:45:20 PM

QuoteBringing it to Dave's ?

I am thinking that's not what I was thinking. 

hahaha I tried 

We stock/use our go-to Dyna 2000i's in Iron XL, Shovel, Evo XL, and Evo applications, when the OEM's fail, or when upgrading from a points-triggered ignition.

I have the Daytona Twin Tech with VOES. Ir works fine after getting it sorted out. I Have no problems but if I did it again I would the Dyna unit. I like the programming better. Seems easier and more intuitive to use.

Quote from: capn on April 10, 2021, 12:51:04 AM
On the ultima dont ground the voes wire if you are not using voes.

ng

That's what I was thinking. JW your reason for grounding? Mine is running ungrounded, so was the unit I replaced.

I'm not JW, so his reasons may vary, but in general the advance curves come in sooner RPM wise. (see page 5 of PDF)
Everyone's results may vary according to their build. So 
Pay attention to this note on page 4;

QuoteFor racing applications, the advance can be set to always come in quickly by using NORMAL VOES mode and permanently connecting the
violet wire to ground. These curves are similar to what is generated by a mechanical advancer.

Grounded = Advance mode.
Open = Retarded mode (6 degrees or so).

Before electronic ignition, they used points with centrifical advance, at start up the timing is like 5 deg BTDC, and max advance around 1600rpm at 35 deg BTDC. If you look at the timing chart for the various electronic ignitions, the "advance mode" is essentially the same thing. Meaning, it emulates the stock points ignition timing. If you leave the VOES wire open, it puts it in Retarded mode. Sure, you can adjust the timing plate and time the motor to still get 35 deg BTDC at 1600rpm and above, but at the lower rpms, and especially idle, the timing will be too advanced. Will that work? Sure, I guess. Just saying, probably not optimal though.

-JW

Advanced with a kicker is a good way to qualify for knee surgery or learn some aerobatics. 

So if he was so inclined a guy could ground the wire through a toggle switch and open the circuit to retard for easier starting?

Or of course install a proper VOES and tune it.

I do not have a VOES on my Ultima ignition and the wire is un-grounded.

Well...... not exactly. My understanding is that these electronic modules have enough "smarts" in them to know what the RPM is, and if it is Zero, then minimum advance, regardless of what the VOES wire says. The problem with a kick start is that if you have to static time it to be advanced at 2000rpm, then it's gonna be advanced at startup/idle also.

Then there is the other issue of ignition delay. Many/most of the aftermarket ignitions wait for the motor to spin two or so cycles before activating the coil. This is to let the starter get the wheels a-spinning, then hit it with the spark, which helps prevent kick-back. That "feature" makes it damn near impossible to kick start a bike with that kind of ignition. Some of them have a "Kick Start Mode" switch, so that is good. Some don't. Need to pay attention when buying. The Ultima does not have it, but can be programmed from a PC for Kick-Start if you buy their special programming cable. Dyna may be the same, I'm not sure, I think they're the same thing. What fun.

-JW

Thanks JW, I have never used the kicker for anything other than adjusting pushrods and occasional helmet holder since I installed the first Dyna in 2003-4   

That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. 

Shiv, there is mention of the kickstart mode in the link that I posted in your tach thread.

Quote from: kd on April 17, 2021, 01:44:41 PM
Shiv, there is mention of the kickstart mode in the link that I posted in your tach thread.

And eliminate my excuse?

I think it's like JW said need a programming cable. I'll probably just let my knees get old happily. The 93 has got 185 psi hot. I'm good with the All Balls starter. If those heads ever come back off I might invest in compression releases.

Ha Ha I get that.  You would also have to take acrobatic training to loft your body high enough to roll it over fast enough.  I actually get sick to my stomach remembering the ratchet slipping on the way through the down stroke.  My right ankle is blue with varicose veins from the numberf of times it was driven full weight (200#) into the ground and rolled over.