Question, Will the Target Tune with wide band O2 sensors "tune" my engine, upgraded 96 cui Dyna to 103 with Andrews 48 cams, 50 mm TB with 5.3 injectors and stage 3 heads? I was suppose to get it dyno tuned, with this pandemic no one local is open to do it. Is the TT with wide band O2 sensors a viable option so I can ride it until I can get it on a dyno and tuned? Thank you for your input.
Quote from: spdrcr on April 04, 2020, 05:59:27 AM
Question, Will the Target Tune with wide band O2 sensors "tune" my engine, upgraded 96 cui Dyna to 103 with Andrews 48 cams, 50 mm TB with 5.3 injectors and stage 3 heads? I was suppose to get it dyno tuned, with this pandemic no one local is open to do it. Is the TT with wide band O2 sensors a viable option so I can ride it until I can get it on a dyno and tuned? Thank you for your input.
You can use Target Tune tuning mode to tune the bike. You ride around and try to hit all the cells in the VE table and then update the tune. Works pretty good in my experience. The wideband O2 sensors are working over the entire map. You can record data and look for spark knock retard too.
Another option is to use the SE wideband module with a PowerVision. It's a superior module in my opinion using newer sensors and better construction.
I have this combination and will try it later this riding season. Right now I'm using the SE wideband with the HD Street Tuner.
Target tune works a treat!
It's autotune feature corrects very quickly. It's a great product.
After talking to Jamie at Fuel Moto, I know why I haven't received very many replies.
What did Jamie say?
Powervision with Target Tune and wideband O2 sensors does all the same adjustments as a tuner doing it on a dyno. What you will get is a tune as good as a tune done on a dyno. The one advantage is that it adjusts "the tune" real time as you ride.
If you could each time clear all data and tune from scratch with the same bike then have a dyno tuning competition between Target Tune wideband and an experienced dyno operator / tuner the man would win and without cheating in some way. Maybe not by a great margin but he would win. Because isn't he using Target Tune as an example as a tool plus what he knows and is reading the results print outs to make manual adjustments that you just can't fully write a program to adjust for. I believe sometimes you still have to read between or outside the lines or data boxes as it is.
Although it might be or getting close to an era of a manual dyno tuning session only really being worth while practically speaking for an actual competition bike. Also wouldn't you be able to use wideband "tuning mode" say after the bikes warmed up everytime you ride it? [perhaps not for good reason] To automatically adjust on the fly for constant changing of weather, altitude, engine temps, even over time parts wear etc while you ride and maintain a near perfect tune even outside the narrowband tune box where as you cannot do that from a dyno session fixed tune.
Hulkss I haven't studied it and don't know how the SE wideband module does what it does. I take it that it only reads data and the tuner does what it does from the data ie PV tuner or SE tuner. I had assumed the SE wideband would only instrument change within the EPA requirements and or only work with the SE tuner so I didn't purchase it with the 20 percent discount at bike purchase. Thoughts?
Getting the AFRs and VEs corrected is done fine with such a device. A dyno then takes over and in the hands of an experienced tuner they can mine for more power. Its the timing!
All the O2 sensors do is report how much oxygen residue is left in the pipe @ the moment of recording. The O2 sensors don't have a clue if the residual oxygen left in the pipe after combustion is from the head side (exhaust event) , or the pipe side (reversion event). While useful for getting the VE tables calibrated to the components installed, it is simply one step in tuning- not the end all/be all. Auto tune can't distinguish the difference, nor can it adjust ignition timing for best ... anything.
Excellent points there!
I love the replies and information.
Quote from: spdrcr on April 10, 2020, 03:59:21 AM
Powervision with Target Tune and wideband O2 sensors does all the same adjustments as a tuner doing it on a dyno. What you will get is a tune as good as a tune done on a dyno. The one advantage is that it adjusts "the tune" real time as you ride.
I seriously doubt that Jamie told you this.
Quote from: Coyote on May 02, 2020, 08:18:11 PM
Quote from: spdrcr on April 10, 2020, 03:59:21 AM
Powervision with Target Tune and wideband O2 sensors does all the same adjustments as a tuner doing it on a dyno. What you will get is a tune as good as a tune done on a dyno. The one advantage is that it adjusts "the tune" real time as you ride.
I seriously doubt that Jamie told you this.
It's not the first time I've seen it said about this system, it's wrong but if you know no better it's an easy pill to swallow.
Quote from: spdrcr on April 09, 2020, 06:30:19 AM
After talking to Jamie at Fuel Moto, I know why I haven't received very many replies.
what do you mean?
I dont think would get a dyno owner to provide an honest review. Would need a college/lab (independent group) to undertake a thorough evaluation and comparison.
I've tuned on the street and the drum. Nothing compares to the latter.
I don't think a lot of people understand that most dyno tuners use the exact same thing... They have a Auto Tune Pro module connected to their Dynojet 250, which is essentially the same thing as a Target Tune in Auto Tune mode. They run the bike, hitting all the cells and map loads or throttle positions, then save the tuned map. Yes, then you can do tweaks to timing to get the most power, and there are other things that are adjusted also, but an experienced person can do all of this with a Target Tune/Power Vision. You can use time between objects while accelerating to do the same thing as a dyno, or a drag strip. It's more f'ing around, but it can be done. I have dyno tuned bikes only to have to re-adjust the timing in the real world due to detonation that didn't show up on the big roller.
It seems to me that using auto tune (not a dyno) is more complicated than it appears on the surface. If you imagine a tuning table, you've got throttle position and RPM. You're trying to sample all rows and columns. So, you'd have to hold the throttle at various % positions and let the RPMs rev up. If you consider that a 40% or 60% throttle position can get you to an extreme high speed pretty quickly, you need to perform this at a lower gear. Otherwise, you'll be hitting 100mph or even higher. Realize you're doing this on a public road...cars, cops, children, curves, etc. It gets pretty brutal when you're up in the 80% and WOT when you're attempting to sweep through the higher RPM range. It's not really riding the bike the way you want to ride the bike, rather making sure all throttle positions, intersecting with all RPMs, are sampled. We've all watched a dyno tuning session and have observed there is a methodical method of sweeping through every throttle position vs. RPM cell in the table, and doing that over and over until a table cell value is converged upon, and a complete table of cell values is converged upon.
A dyno is just another tool in the box. Using a dyno allows one to "hold steady" in a cell, to get an average AFR reading, while looking at steady state data, and making informed VE decisions. It's also a convenient way to measure affects of (AFR & timing) changes.
During street tuning, you tend to sweep through a cell rapidly, and may get one or two "hits" per cell, and those may or not have valid data. You may be able to eventually get enough data on the street to make a decision about VE tables, but it becomes terribly difficult (and expensive, if you get caught) using public roads to evaluate timing changes for best power.
Agreed. Tuning on the street is more difficult than initially conceived. Just imagine holding a throttle position steady, while sweeping up through the RPM range. Do that over and over and think about 20%, 40%, 60%, 80%, and 100% (WOT). Now, think about a road that's near your house you can do this on.
Also, think about what that's going to feel like in terms of what you're doing to your engine when the only gear you might be able to do this is 2nd gear. Maybe 3rd at the tops if you've got a long straight with no side roads...again, near your house.
Against my better judgement, I'll weigh in on this.
I've owned a dyno for 20 years. I've tuned thousands of bikes on it. There are several tens of thousands of pulls on it. Worn out the pillow block bearings and flex couplers more than once. On occasion, I've worked it so hard the brake started smoking.
There's no question a load control dyno can hit more cells than you can on a street ride. That can't even be argued. For example:
(http://www.hammerperf.com/images/pvcells.jpg)
This is kind of an extreme example, but it makes the point. I wouldn't do this on a customer's bike, this was a shop test bike that I abused this badly. But it shows that with enough determination, you can hit damn near any of them if you've got a load control dyno.
On the other hand, a person can also make the argument that mapping cells that can't be hit isn't really worth much. Sure, to the extent the ECM factors nearby cells into it's calculations, there could be some benefit. But lots of the cells shown above are not nearby to anything you'll see on the street.
And what's more, TT implements closed loop wide band, which makes corrections as you ride, and not just near 14.6 either. No dyno can do that.
But of course, there's the spark advance tables, for which auto tune and closed-loop don't help you.
So arguments can be made for either dyno tuning or TT.
Now all that said, we routinely advise customers to go with TT over a dyno tune. Reason being, we have a selfish motive. When you ship over 700 engine kits a year, even a 1% failure rate becomes an enormous headache. The kit has to be robust, and we do everything we can to make sure the customer is successful and it doesn't come back to bite us. We provide tunes for EFI applications, and every one of those tunes has a spark advance table we're comfortable with, both from the point of view of power production and being safe for the pistons. No faster way to scuff a set of pistons than throwing timing at it looking for power, which unfortunately, a lot of guys mistakenly believe they can do. And listening for ping is an incredibly dangerous way to set your timing, plenty of motors will scuff long before you ever hear it ping. So in our ideal world, the customer takes the tune we provide and then dials in the VE's using auto tune and TT and leaves the spark advance tables just exactly as we provided them. If a guy does that, the pistons are fine. If he takes it to a dyno, and the dyno tuner cranks up the spark advance and scuffs the kit, now we've got a headache. And there's really not much difference in price between a TT kit and a dyno tune anyway. So the TT kit is our preferred solution.
However, to be honest, more than 90% of our customers do neither a dyno tune nor get the TT kit. Most just take the tune we give them, do a couple of narrow band auto tune sessions, and achieve a perfectly satisfactory tune. It's really only the higher power packages, the ones that start pushing the limits, that need more than that. The higher up the power chain you go, the more critical the tune becomes.
I have done a fair amount of street tuning with a TTS. One trick I got from Mayor was to mount a small video monitor to the handle bars that is plugged into my laptop in the tourpack. On one screen it shows all the cells in the tune and with patience I can do a fair job of filling the cells with data. A dyno can certainly do a better job, but I can fill cells I would never ride in so I am quite satified with what I can do. Using ths monitor I can cover most of the cells in a 30 minute ride. Like the other post, you need to find a quiet back road so you don't need to worry about traffic or children or cops for that matter because I will be running up to 100 MPH a few times. Luckily here in North Dakota quiet roads are easily available.
It reminds me of one time I was our tuning and my buddy Gonenorth tagged along on his BMW K1600. I was doing a run and between watching the road and the video monitor I pretty much ignored him. I was running 90-100 MPH and he blows by me like I was standing still. A couple more miles down the road I caught up and pulled over to reflash ths ECM and while we were sitting there a county sheriff drove by. A couple minutes either way and he would have been busy writing tickets!
How I do it, TTS and SEPST.
Quote from: aswracing on May 11, 2020, 09:28:30 AM
(http://www.hammerperf.com/images/pvcells.jpg)
Is the Autotune datalogger screen above and the hits mode available in the Powervision alone with AutoTune basic?
Or does it require the Auto Tune Pro or Target Tune module?
This screen and the data logger module are available for any kind of Autotune mode.
But I've never seen a log covering as many cells as this one!!!
Quote from: cheech on May 12, 2020, 01:37:12 PM
Quote from: aswracing on May 11, 2020, 09:28:30 AM
(http://www.hammerperf.com/images/pvcells.jpg)
Is the Autotune datalogger screen above and the hits mode available in the Powervision alone with AutoTune basic?
Or does it require the Auto Tune Pro or Target Tune module?
No the screen is available with the basic auto tune on a power vision. Uses the same screen for the auot tune pro and target tune has well from what I read. I have only trued the basic on mine considering the auto tune pro. :scratch: Bob