Customer just bought a bike with a Thundermax and it ran great. Over the weekend he pulled he negative to hook up a tender lead and fired it up without doing the 30/30 sequence. Bike runs like crap and multiple resets do not make a difference. Is the ECM toast? Thanks
what communication do you have with it when you plug in the interface ?
on more thing when you did reset k/o k/o engine start /off the engine has to be hot
Have you tried disconnecting the battery again for an hour and then starting over again correctly?
Are you able to communicate with the ECM? If so reload the map.
Quote from: codyshop on April 07, 2020, 10:53:07 AM
Customer just bought a bike with a Thundermax and it ran great. Over the weekend he pulled he negative to hook up a tender lead and fired it up without doing the 30/30 sequence. Bike runs like crap and multiple resets do not make a difference. Is the ECM toast? Thanks
I can't answer your question, but have one of my own.
What is the "30/30 sequence " ?
30/30 is only for IAC Home position I believe anyway. Weird though the website has this regarding battery maintenance Link (http://www.thunder-max.com/TechDocs/InitializingModuleTBW.pdf)
Only 20 second intervals.
Check basics also. Are the Battery cables indeed tight? No grounds left off?
Just a service announcement, the Thundermax packaging I just fooled with had a card in that said to pull maxi fuse before battery service. As a precaution I guess.
Other than that definitley do as Coyote suggested and Ajayrk.
Quote from: twincamzz on April 07, 2020, 01:53:05 PM
I can't answer your question, but have one of my own.
What is the "30/30 sequence " ?
It's a initialization procedure. Read the yellow highlighted on page 5 of part 1 Here (http://www.thunder-max.com/TechDocs/309-460 Installation V2014.05.15 Print Version.pdf#view=fit)
The on / off 30/30 is bit the does not set the IAC position, it sets the TPS position. Pull the ECM fuse then reinstall and go through the 30/30 sequence.
Add,
Make sure that the throttle is closed completely when doing the sequence.
:agree: It has just lost it's base settings...should be fine. Always pull the fuse before disconnecting the battery,
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on April 08, 2020, 07:30:37 AM
The on / off 30/30 is bit the does not set the IAC position, it sets the TPS position.
[attach=0]
Quote from: Coyote on April 08, 2020, 08:17:53 AM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on April 08, 2020, 07:30:37 AM
The on / off 30/30 is bit the does not set the IAC position, it sets the TPS position.
[attach=0,msg1341225]
It does say learn IAC motor home but it's wrong except of possibly FBW systems.
On FBC systems, it learns the home position of the TPS. Tmax sets IAC based on learned conditions while the motor idles. Gen IIs had a learn procedure. Gen IIIs automated the learn due to some Gen IIIs being controlled by wire and TH wanted to make the control SW the same.
Remember FBW bikes don't have IACs. They step the throttle blade. The procure listed does looks like it's for a FBW system because after the process, start the motor and let it idle for 15 seconds which would set the idle control (but no IAC motor).
Generally on the FBC systems, they want you to pull the ECM fuse before messing with power then reinstall after power is reconnected. I don''t know about FBW systems.
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on April 08, 2020, 10:19:33 AM
Quote from: Coyote on April 08, 2020, 08:17:53 AM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on April 08, 2020, 07:30:37 AM
The on / off 30/30 is bit the does not set the IAC position, it sets the TPS position.
[attach=0,msg1341225]
It does say learn IAC motor home but it's wrong except of possibly FBW systems.
On FBC systems, it learns the home position of the TPS. Tmax sets IAC based on learned conditions while the motor idles. Gen IIs had a learn procedure. Gen IIIs automated the learn due to some Gen IIIs being controlled by wire and TH wanted to make the control SW the same.
Remember FBW bikes don't have IACs. They step the throttle blade. The procure listed does looks like it's for a FBW system because after the process, start the motor and let it idle for 15 seconds which would set the idle control (but no IAC motor).
Generally on the FBC systems, they want you to pull the ECM fuse before messing with power then reinstall after power is reconnected. I don''t know about FBW systems.
FBW bikes still have calibration for IAC. Still needs to learn where to set the throttle blade. ( I assume this is true for TMax?) This if from my 2012 FBW bike.
[attach=0,msg1341255]
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on April 08, 2020, 10:19:33 AM
It does say learn IAC motor home but it's wrong except of possibly FBW systems.
The link I posted of the procedure and Coyote snipped a image of is for Thundermax #309-460. For "FBC", cable operated throttle body bikes.
The 30/30 procedure is omitted from the manuals for FBW bikes. But they do have a 20/20 procedure.
[attach=0,msg1341256]
Quote
Tmax sets IAC based on learned conditions while the motor idles.
Which is not retained during a power disconnect according to the 30/30 Initialization procedure.
:up: Well there you go.
It's funny, I did that 30/30 procedure when my t-max was brand new but have never done it since.
The battery was disconnected all Winter this year & I forgot all about doing this when I reconnected it. The bike started instantly & runs exactly the same as it did last Fall.
~John
Quote from: cheech on April 07, 2020, 04:47:45 PM
Quote from: twincamzz on April 07, 2020, 01:53:05 PM
I can't answer your question, but have one of my own.
What is the "30/30 sequence " ?
It's a initialization procedure. Read the yellow highlighted on page 5 of part 1 Here (http://www.thunder-max.com/TechDocs/309-460 Installation V2014.05.15 Print Version.pdf#view=fit)
Thanks ! :up:
If you look at the initialization procedure, for the Genn IIIs FBC system which Cheech shows in its entirety. The first part is still the setting the throttle off position which is the important part that needs to be reset when the bike runs rough. The ECM uses 0 TPS voltage to figure out where to pull injector pulse widths and timing from the table at low speed. If that is off the bike will run like crap. I've managed to trick the ECM into setting the voltage wrong twice on the Tmax while out riding on the starts. (gen III FBC).
20 seconds or 30 seconds is not important as long as it is over a minimum. Gen IIs were 30 IIRC at one time.
The starting and idling is for calibration of the IAC. Yes these is still IAC on the FBW bikes but there isn't a separate motor.
AFAIK, it's still best to remove the ECM fuse to reset it and start over.
Quote from: fbn ent on April 08, 2020, 08:09:24 AMAlways pull the fuse before disconnecting the battery,
110%
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on April 09, 2020, 12:27:40 PM
Quote from: Coyote on April 09, 2020, 10:14:12 AM
Quote from: Pirsch Fire Wagon on April 09, 2020, 10:05:52 AM
Quote from: fbn ent on April 08, 2020, 08:09:24 AMAlways pull the fuse before disconnecting the battery,
110%
Makes absolutely no difference either way.
From the latest tuners manual.
You know as well as I do it doesn't make any difference. You can interrupt a series circuit anywhere and it's still the same. They just want you to power down the unit prior to unplugging the connector to it.
Quote from: Coyote on April 09, 2020, 12:30:25 PM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on April 09, 2020, 12:27:40 PM
Quote from: Coyote on April 09, 2020, 10:14:12 AM
Quote from: Pirsch Fire Wagon on April 09, 2020, 10:05:52 AM
Quote from: fbn ent on April 08, 2020, 08:09:24 AMAlways pull the fuse before disconnecting the battery,
110%
Makes absolutely no difference either way.
From the latest tuners manual.
You know as well as I do it doesn't make any difference. You can interrupt a series circuit anywhere and it's still the same. They just want you to power down the unit prior to unplugging the connector to it.
The problem is that it's not simply a series circuit. When you are connecting the battery up, you are connecting a bunch of things in parallel both inside the Tmax and the rest of the motorcycle. Depending on how the electronics powers up there could be different internal power supplies that power up out of order that can blow stuff up. I've have had to deal with this stuff on circuits in the past when designing CCAs with switching supplies for analog circuits. Now, it is hokey that this needs to occur, as it's one of the design issues that should be accounted for when the circuit was designed. It may simply effect the way the processor does a power-on reset. I don't know what the exact reason is but I'm willing to accept the process.
I've disconnected and connected the power by mistake a couple times on a tmax and not had an issues but it's still recommended by TH.
I might buy that if there were lots going on when you connect the battery, but there's not, the ECM is pretty much it. And there's probably nothing more hostile on the bike's electrical system than what happens when you push the starter button or play Pink Floyd on your 1kw amp. :wink:
Nothing inside the Tmax will care since you have the ignition off and it still only gets powered up on the Batt termimal.
I think they just don't want you pulling the ECM connector while it's powered up and telling you to pull the fuse first is easier than to disconnect the battery.
Being bored today, I'm happy to backseat engineer it for them. :hyst:
Glad you're doing well over in SoCal.
I can't make any excuses for Thunderheart. They have said that pulling the ECM fuse was required on gen IIs and I was hoping that it was fixed on the Gen IIIs but apparently not.
Other stuff is powered on when the battery is connected. The TSSM and depending on the year, the speedo and tach. It might not even be an external power sequence issue tho.
Well.....I have a BIG label on my battery on the '02 that reminds me to pull the fuse. I'm a by the book bind of guy....
Still no luck. Great fuel pressure (58psi steady) and the ECM is communicating with my laptop with no issues. Does anyone know if Thunderheart closed down due to the virus? Calls and emails are going unanswered for a week now, and that's not like them.
I got a general question email I sent yesterday back this morning. Wasn't a tune or ECM issue question though.
Bummer on no luck.
Have you tried to do a firmware update on the Tmax while connected to the bike?
Have you "read" what map is in the module?
See if it's a file name that is in the map listings in the software, open that up then write that to the Tmax?
Just throwing basics out there.
Try to read out the map and save it. IIRC the tmax will complain if you don't have the base map loaded but will provide enough info to which map is the base map. Save that map. While at it, set in monitor mode and look at the TPS line in the map while rolling the throttle on and off slowly. Make sure line moves smoothly.
Look at the map tables to see if anything looks like it is missing. If OK, use the copy tables to copy all the tables. Load a new base map and paste the copied tables into it Save the new base map and program that into the Tmax.
Still don't know if this is a Gen II or Gen III or if it's FBW or BFC. What year and model is the bike? Mileage?
Check the injector wires.
Got it, gents. Battery ground cable was broken INSIDE the insulation between the two lugs.
That will make you chase a bunch of false leads, good find.
Quote from: codyshop on April 23, 2020, 09:08:27 PM
Got it, gents. Battery ground cable was broken INSIDE the insulation between the two lugs.
:up: Ugh those type issues are for sure hair pulling.
Quote from: codyshop on April 23, 2020, 09:08:27 PM
Got it, gents. Battery ground cable was broken INSIDE the insulation between the two lugs.
:emoGroan: ....... I hate those! :up: :beer: