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Sumping issues solved

Started by BigT, September 24, 2018, 04:13:48 PM

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0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

VDeuce

I've been running it a bit lower especially after it sumped, but honestly I don't recall what level I had it at when it sumped, it very well could have been at the full mark. I like TR's level suggestions marking the stick.

sandrooney

Durwood, How many bikes have you had sump? Were any of them softails? Thanks
Patience is such a waste of time .

Durwood

 :chop:
Quote from: sandrooney on June 14, 2019, 08:51:43 AM
Durwood, How many bikes have you had sump? Were any of them softails? Thanks
7 Touring, zero Softail's.
The few Softail's that I have built barely had enough sump contents to grease a drain pan.

I check them at the sump plug, not the CPS.

sandrooney

Thanks Durwood for all the info you have provided.
Patience is such a waste of time .

guppymech

It'd be nice to see some drilled head screws and safetywire on the piston oiler screws.
'84 FXE, '02 883R

Herko

Quote from: guppymech on June 15, 2019, 07:33:10 AM
It'd be nice to see some drilled head screws and safetywire on the piston oiler screws.
Agreed.
Did them that way on Twin Cams.
If I were to start working on Milwaukee Eights,  I would certainly do it on all M8s  when working in that area.
Especially with their inherent situation on these mounting screws.
Considering a power upgrade?
First and foremost, focus on your tuning plan.

Heatwave3

Seems like if that was the "REAL" solution it would be a pretty cheap and easy fix for HD. Simply ship every M8 owner a new, recalibrated engine oil dipstick and change the oil quantities in the owner and service manuals.

Quote from: JMHD on June 04, 2019, 05:04:22 AM
Quote from: Durwood on June 04, 2019, 04:38:24 AM
I have had them sump after addressing the oiler issue, which I do whenever the cylinders are off.

Oil pump doesn't matter, with or without updated cover with seal or S&S, they still sump.

But once the oil level dropped the sumping stopped. This is on 8 different bikes that I built and tuned.
A friend of mine had sumping on a very long trip and once it started it kept recurring , he said the only way to get it to stop to get home was running the oil about a quart lower. Another case to confirm your findings Durwood. :up: :up:

Nastytls

Quote from: Durwood on June 15, 2019, 03:18:57 AM
:chop:
Quote from: sandrooney on June 14, 2019, 08:51:43 AM
Durwood, How many bikes have you had sump? Were any of them softails? Thanks
7 Touring, zero Softail's.
The few Softail's that I have built barely had enough sump contents to grease a drain pan.

I check them at the sump plug, not the CPS.

Any theory as to why that is? Are the engine cases significantly different? Oil pump? Spec for oil quantity?

bigcraig

Silly thought I just had today.

Anyone thought about running a line from the sump plug directly back to the oil pan? Obviously some fittings and a good steel braided line would be needed, but that's easy.

Any thoughts from the guru's?

rigidthumper

Unless you provide a second, in line oil pump to make it flow back to the tank, I don't see how it would accomplish much.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

PoorUB

Yep, you would  need a pump on it. Just a simple oil line will make it worse as the bottom of the crankcase and oil pan are roughly the same height.  It would put more oil into the crankcase  as it would flow from the tank to the crankcase.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

kd

Quote from: PoorUB on June 21, 2019, 06:07:47 AM
Yep, you would  need a pump on it. Just a simple oil line will make it worse as the bottom of the crankcase and oil pan are roughly the same height.  It would put more oil into the crankcase  as it would flow from the tank to the crankcase.


A one way auto (spring) actuated in-line valve may evacuate on positive lapses as the pistons drop and close on the negative pulses as the pistons rise as well as provide a check valve to prevent drain back from the oil reservoir.   :scratch:   More stuff to maintain and go wrong if it worked but no real moving parts.
KD

bigcraig

Well, after posing the question around the interweb, it doesn't seem likely that it would work.

Oh well, thought I had a brief moment genius! lol

Sunny Jim

Quote from: VDeuce on June 14, 2019, 06:05:28 AM
I've been running it a bit lower especially after it sumped, but honestly I don't recall what level I had it at when it sumped, it very well could have been at the full mark. I like TR's level suggestions marking the stick.

VD, further to my post on castings etc, I have assembled my camchest with original. Pump and plate O ringed, and ran the bike on the bench with air cleaner off and breathers exposed.
I ran it up for several minutes with dipstick out but sitting in place. When I increased revs I noticed the dipstick being sucked back into position.
I shut it down and checked oil at CPS. - 75 ml.
I ran the bike again with. Dipstick firmly in place for several minutes. Shut it down and drained 150 ml from CPS. With dipstick in situ and the revs increased, the breather output diminished noticeably.
The vacuum in the sump is aerating the oil and preventing the pump from scavenging properly. It is also drawing oil from the tank directly into. The sump( I think)
Next step is to vent the oil tank for me.
Running a lower oil volume inadvertently increases the amount of available air space which in effect, changes the pressure differentiation.
More testing tomorrow.

SixShooter14

Quote from: Sunny Jim on July 03, 2019, 07:35:27 AM
Quote from: VDeuce on June 14, 2019, 06:05:28 AM
I've been running it a bit lower especially after it sumped, but honestly I don't recall what level I had it at when it sumped, it very well could have been at the full mark. I like TR's level suggestions marking the stick.

VD, further to my post on castings etc, I have assembled my camchest with original. Pump and plate O ringed, and ran the bike on the bench with air cleaner off and breathers exposed.
I ran it up for several minutes with dipstick out but sitting in place. When I increased revs I noticed the dipstick being sucked back into position.
I shut it down and checked oil at CPS. - 75 ml.
I ran the bike again with. Dipstick firmly in place for several minutes. Shut it down and drained 150 ml from CPS. With dipstick in situ and the revs increased, the breather output diminished noticeably.
The vacuum in the sump is aerating the oil and preventing the pump from scavenging properly. It is also drawing oil from the tank directly into. The sump( I think)
Next step is to vent the oil tank for me.
Running a lower oil volume inadvertently increases the amount of available air space which in effect, changes the pressure differentiation.
More testing tomorrow.
That makes it sound like the oil tank is perhaps too small? Maybe the spec'd oil quantity is correct for cooling and lubrication, but the tank doesn't maintain enough air space. An interesting test  :up: Keep us posted, please
'97 Road King, Rinehart True Dual, HSR42, 10:1, EVL3010, 2000i

VDeuce

Quote from: Sunny Jim on July 03, 2019, 07:35:27 AM
Quote from: VDeuce on June 14, 2019, 06:05:28 AM
I've been running it a bit lower especially after it sumped, but honestly I don't recall what level I had it at when it sumped, it very well could have been at the full mark. I like TR's level suggestions marking the stick.

VD, further to my post on castings etc, I have assembled my camchest with original. Pump and plate O ringed, and ran the bike on the bench with air cleaner off and breathers exposed.
I ran it up for several minutes with dipstick out but sitting in place. When I increased revs I noticed the dipstick being sucked back into position.
I shut it down and checked oil at CPS. - 75 ml.
I ran the bike again with. Dipstick firmly in place for several minutes. Shut it down and drained 150 ml from CPS. With dipstick in situ and the revs increased, the breather output diminished noticeably.
The vacuum in the sump is aerating the oil and preventing the pump from scavenging properly. It is also drawing oil from the tank directly into. The sump( I think)
Next step is to vent the oil tank for me.
Running a lower oil volume inadvertently increases the amount of available air space which in effect, changes the pressure differentiation.
More testing tomorrow.
Excellent testing! Some guys have been venting the dipstick by drilling a hole and adding a brake bleeder, then a hose attached. It really seems we have a venting problem with these engines. I can't take credit for those findings as TR and others have already been there.

Here is the T-Man video on venting the oil tank, not sure if you've seen it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ni3pT5aHE4M

Sunny Jim

I have a retired engineer who has vast experience in pumps. He applies the necessary maths, where us laymen look for cause and affect.
These are fundamentally pumps. The oil tank and crank case represent a space. As we increase the displacement we offset the the original mathematic conditions and alter the pressure variables.
You can throw pumps at these left right and centre, but if you have a increasing vacuum, aeration etc, the pump struggles.
If you think you are sumping, try the inititial loose dipstick test and expose your breathers. Accelerate the engine and observe the vacuum . The breathers will reduce their output, effectively shutting off.

Sunny Jim

Further tests today with breather on Dipstick!
Oil level down to 3 litres!
Still sumped!
Science is helping!
Not happy!

Txwezl

"As we increase the displacement we offset the the original mathematic conditions and alter the pressure variable."

Just thinking out loud here but I wonder if removing the counter balancer when increasing displacement would be enough to offset the differences you speak of?

Sunny Jim

Right now I wouldn't have a clue.
Currently stripping it down for another. Look.

Sunny Jim

So we tried intentionally bring on sumping by opening the oil tank to the atmosphere.
We used the original pump and plate.
Keep in mind this is an early M8 RG with a CR460 and 117 CP pistons @10.75:1.
It's sumped like ther was no tomorrow. Almost 3 litres of oil out of thE CPS.
This has kind of turned me upside down , but gives me a clear insight as to how critical it is to have no air leaks.
Question,
What is an acceptable amount of residual oil in the sump at running temp when stationary. As in turned off. ?

Durwood

Jim, I have my personal bike down to 4.5oz from the sump plug. Zero from the crank sensor and it sumped 2 quarts prior to that.

The norm seems to be about 8oz from the sump plug.

klammer76

Quote from: Nastytls on June 18, 2019, 09:00:13 AM
Quote from: Durwood on June 15, 2019, 03:18:57 AM
:chop:
Quote from: sandrooney on June 14, 2019, 08:51:43 AM
Durwood, How many bikes have you had sump? Were any of them softails? Thanks
7 Touring, zero Softail's.
The few Softail's that I have built barely had enough sump contents to grease a drain pan.

I check them at the sump plug, not the CPS.

Any theory as to why that is? Are the engine cases significantly different? Oil pump? Spec for oil quantity?
I want to know the same thing. What is the internal differences between the touring and softail motors that would cause the touring to have the sumping issues? Oil return, venting?

Sunny Jim

Durwood , what was your remedy for your sumping issue, apart from lowering 5he oil volume.?

Durwood

Quote from: Sunny Jim on July 04, 2019, 07:21:01 AM
Durwood , what was your remedy for your sumping issue, apart from lowering 5he oil volume.?
Lowering the oil level has fixed every one thus far. Be sure to check the piston oilers while apart.

Like I said earlier in the thread, I noticed on the dyno that all of the sumping builds, once drained did not sump again. Didn't matter what oil pump was in them, S&S, OE without seal or OE with seal.

That's when I tried it on mine and it worked. 1200 miles and no sumping.