HarleyTechTalk

Technical Forums => Twin Cam => Topic started by: fbn ent on May 27, 2019, 01:29:55 PM

Title: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on May 27, 2019, 01:29:55 PM
Friend's '12 FLT with a 120R will start on the first spin initially then (doesn't matter if it's a minute or an hour riding) will either crank through a few revolutions and start or will have no spark (it seems) and after a few attempts will back fire or make that hollow/flooded sound in the exhaust and lite up. This has been going on for a while and is getting to the point he can't trust it. It is getting fuel and runs like, well, a 120R hotrod otherwise.

It shows no codes. I figure it is losing spark somehow (CPS?) and told him to pull it and we will try my known good one. Any other K.I.S.S. ideas?
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on May 27, 2019, 02:09:21 PM
No CRs.
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: 1workinman on May 27, 2019, 04:22:33 PM
Will the key fob keep it from starting if battery dies .
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on May 27, 2019, 06:15:19 PM
Yep..new batteries. It starts fine when it starts... :nix:
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: Scotty on May 28, 2019, 01:20:25 AM
So you tried a known good crank sensor (CKP) and that did not change anything is that right?  CPS stands for cam position sensor which they haven't used since 2001.
CRS = can't remember "Potty mouth"  :SM:

Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: Durwood on May 28, 2019, 03:38:18 AM
How old is the battery in the bike?

My old Twin Cam Road glide would do the same thing when the battery was getting weak.

Fire right up when cold, ride it to get gas, shut it off, then on restart it would roll over a couple of times and backfire before finally starting.
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on May 28, 2019, 06:56:56 AM
Quote from: Scotty on May 28, 2019, 01:20:25 AM
So you tried a known good crank sensor (CKP) and that did not change anything is that right?  CPS stands for cam position sensor which they haven't used since 2001.
CRS = can't remember "Potty mouth"  :SM:

:doh:...............yeah, I suffer from CRS for sure. Yes, I was referring to the CranKshaft Position sensor.....

And he hasn't pulled it yet to try mine. Plug is under all kind of stuff up front and he's hoping for it to heal I guess. :kick:

Durwood....don't know about the battery, guess it could be an issue. I'll check the drop today.
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on May 28, 2019, 02:02:18 PM
Battery is new, just spent some time with him trying the known good CKS. No change. Running a HD tuner.

Again,
*  It starts and idles fine at first.
*  On restart, after cycling the ignition, it will start after cranking a little longer than the first start.
*  On second restart, again after cycling the ignition, it will crank maybe four or five revolutions before firing.
*  On third restart, yes after cycling the ignition, it will not fire.
*  Fourth attempt will give a burp out of the pipes.
*  Fifth attempt will give a backfire from the pipes and it will start.

Mostly the same pattern whether it is a short duration or an hour riding.... :idunno:

Runs strong when it runs. He is going to have to take it back to the shop that did the work (3 hours away) if we can't figure it out.

It is so predictable it's driving us nuts !  :turd:

Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: chaos901 on May 28, 2019, 02:26:41 PM
Sounds like something electrical is getting warm/hot and not working any longer.  I can't recall enough to properly suggest where to start looking though.
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on May 28, 2019, 02:30:13 PM
Yeah, that's what I was thinking but to run great any other time than this start thing baffles me.

Swapped the system relay with the brake relay...nope.
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: chaos901 on May 28, 2019, 02:36:42 PM
So, is there anything that is different in the starting sequence checks and balances that is not present during a normal running sequence?   Again, not something I know off hand. 
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on May 28, 2019, 02:38:37 PM
Don't know, I'm hoping someone can shine some  :idea: on it. You are right though, it's like something is missing in the sequence.
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: Scotty on May 28, 2019, 03:27:46 PM
So many things it could be.........a sensor, throttle body (plate or shaft), ECM, wiring, coil, plugs, plug wires and the tune
It could be a number of things but who did the tune and do they have to much fuel going in on a warm startup that is fouling the plug as a backfire in the pipe tells me raw fuel is igniting in the pipe. That is where I would start now that the crank sensor is tested fine.
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on May 28, 2019, 03:40:02 PM
They tuned it, they can figure it out.....I don't have the time to spend on it....he's going to have to take it back in to the shop. I don't have the software for it to even try...
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: Hossamania on May 28, 2019, 03:47:17 PM
Temp sensor is all I've got to contribute.
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: Ohio HD on May 28, 2019, 03:56:37 PM
Didn't the 2012 originally have ACR's? Are they just not being used?

If they're just unhooked, or the heads being used don't have provision for them, could this be effecting the ECM after initial start?
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: Coyote on May 28, 2019, 04:12:09 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on May 28, 2019, 03:56:37 PM
Didn't the 2012 originally have ACR's? Are they just not being used?

If they're just unhooked, or the heads being used don't have provision for them, could this be effecting the ECM after initial start?

The ECM will throw an error code if they are enabled but not installed.
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: Ohio HD on May 28, 2019, 04:15:13 PM
Quote from: Coyote on May 28, 2019, 04:12:09 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on May 28, 2019, 03:56:37 PM
Didn't the 2012 originally have ACR's? Are they just not being used?

If they're just unhooked, or the heads being used don't have provision for them, could this be effecting the ECM after initial start?

The ECM will throw an error code if they are enabled but not installed.

Could be, but wondering why there are no CR's?


Quote from: fbn ent on May 27, 2019, 02:09:21 PM
No CRs.
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on May 28, 2019, 04:46:38 PM
He said he was told they weren't recommended for the S&S heads he put on it... :idunno:
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: Ohio HD on May 28, 2019, 04:53:39 PM
OEM ACR's won't bolt onto S&S heads, but they could have been made to fit by a competent cylinder head shop. Head type really has no bearing on effectiveness of compression releases. If he has any compression to speak of, I'm surprised it cranks over hot.   
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: FSG on May 28, 2019, 05:08:43 PM
a 120 with no CRs ........  what Cams  ?


pull the front plug out once is't been run and hot, will it crank and start on the rear cylinder ?
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on May 28, 2019, 07:51:17 PM
I told him to try that but he didn't make it happen. Maybe tomorrow....

It cranks fine and should fire but when it is in the "no fire" state it's like the spark has been turned off. I'm going to try and check the spark when warm and acting up just to see if for some reason there is none. The plugs aren't all sooted up from restarting it so many times so I kind of don't think that it is over fuelling.

Don't know what cams but I'll ask him. Goes like the proverbial bat though!
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on May 29, 2019, 02:41:19 PM
He says "Easy Start" cams.....I can get the build from him if it makes any difference.

He's gone riding, see if he gets back. LOL!
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: Scotty on May 29, 2019, 02:55:29 PM
S&S easy start cams and adjustable pushrods set to deep into the lifters if they bleed down to much will cause those problems as will to much startup fuel as I mentioned before.
If he has adjustable pushrods tall him not to go past 3 turns deep.
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on May 30, 2019, 08:20:58 AM
Scotty....Thanks for that. This issue started last year after the build but wasn't as bad as now. He wasn't able to ride it much since he was incarcerated....would the lifter issue get worse as the top end breaks in?
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: Scotty on May 30, 2019, 12:57:36 PM
I think as any motor loosens up thing might develop but I don't know what lifters are in it and that could be the biggest part of the problem. Easy start cams bleed off around 70psi to get the motor spinning but to much and the ECM won't fire because it doesn't sense the flywheel slowing down as you would have with compression.
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: GaryLC on May 30, 2019, 10:44:25 PM
I suggest testing the starter. If it is pulling too much current, it could be the cause of his problem. My '09 with a 120" was having similar starting problems. I put a new "high torque" starter from Harley. and it starts very well now hot or cold.
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on May 31, 2019, 06:49:37 AM
He has both a brand new battery and high torque starter.

Haven't had a chance to look at it again since he has been riding it.
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on June 05, 2019, 12:25:03 PM
Well....I think I screwed up.  :doh:

I remembered something about not updating the Super Tuner just AFTER I hit the button. Was given a message that my software had been locked until I update it. Soooo, I don't have any thing to hook up to but am wondering what has changed in the download. It is now 11 instead of 8 (I think) is it going to be any use to me in trying to figure his issue out now. Kinda like to know before I give him a call and tell him to bring it over.  :turd: :turd:
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: kd on June 05, 2019, 01:06:59 PM
IIRC I was told not to do the SEPST update.  Because I switched to TTS I didn't do it so I can't remember or say what the reason was but I think it had something to do with the MOCO's deal with the devil to not support the true race tuners.  Maybe Joe or one of the other tuners remember this (or maybe I'm just full of  :turd: and don't remember it correctly)
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: lonewolf on June 05, 2019, 01:10:42 PM
Try going to program files (86)/Super Tuner/Applications, click on "last date" and change the date.  :wink:
They have made some changes on things but still a pos tuner
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on June 05, 2019, 03:08:03 PM
Quote from: kd on June 05, 2019, 01:06:59 PM
IIRC I was told not to do the SESTP update.  Because I switched to TTS I didn't do it so I can't remember or say what the reason was but I think it had something to do with the MOCO's deal with the devil to not support the true race tuners.  Maybe Joe or one of the other tuners remember this (or maybe I'm just full of  :turd: and don't remember it correctly)

That's the way I remember it kd. I'll be really happy if lonewolf's trick works. Just want to look at the 120 to see if anything is there... :scratch:
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: Scotty on June 05, 2019, 03:10:07 PM
11.02 is the last version of the Super Tuner software.
Change the date as posted above to get it working again.
If you want an earlier version just tell me which one you want I have most of them here.
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on June 18, 2019, 09:41:54 AM
Just an update...

Talked to him yesterday. He says he went through the steps to disable the "transport mode" which I know absolutely nothing about. The bike didn't do it again for two days starting/riding/stopping. He says he didn't put it in the mode  :nix:. Stay tuned....
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: Scotty on June 18, 2019, 03:03:24 PM
Once you turn the ignition on and set run/stop switch to run then Transport mode is cancelled.
He can't of been riding the bike while it is in transport mode as it is just not possible.  :wtf:
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: Coyote on June 18, 2019, 03:11:39 PM
Quote from: Scotty on June 18, 2019, 03:03:24 PM
Once you turn the ignition on and set run/stop switch to run then Transport mode is cancelled.
He can't of been riding the bike while it is in transport mode as it is just not possible.  :wtf:

:up:
Title: Re: 2012 120R LOADS UP (no spark)
Post by: fbn ent on June 18, 2019, 03:30:52 PM
Yeah, that's what I figured. All I know is what he told me......he will have more to report tonight as the sun finally came out.