Cam chest upgrade

[FTBY55]

Looking for some opinions please.
I am considering upgrading the cam chest on my '02 Ultra and was wondering if going to hydraulic or gear drive would be better. Was seriously considering the S&S gear drive and cam upgrade and if done would it be best to stay with stock pushrods or go to adjustables. Top end will be opened up to install RockOuts while lifters and cam are replaced.

Thanks in advance.

[86fxwg]

02 crank I'd feel good about gear drive.
As long as finance's are good now, go with adjustable pushrods since apart or reassemble & save the coin.Replace down the road when cam chest gets opened again.

86

[tdrglide]

It all depends....
Why do you think it needs an upgrade. What are you expecting.
Are you doing the work your self or having a shop do the work.
Is motor still stock.
Are you changing cams. If so, to what.

[tdrglide]

I see you are changing cams. Some cams may require adjustable push rods because of different base circles. I like them anyways.

[itsafatboy]

check ebay , there is a set of ss570 with all gears for 379.00 ,  also a ss509g cam with all gears for 525.00 , that was just from searching SS gear drive, im sure there is more deals , 

[Ohio HD]

First step before buying "ANY PARTS" is put a dial indicator on the crank to insure the pinion side run out is 0.003" or less. If it isn't then no gear drive.

[No Cents]

First step before buying "ANY PARTS" is put a dial indicator on the crank to insure the pinion side run out is 0.003" or less. If it isn't then no gear drive.

   ^ ^ ^
...what Brian said!

[PoorUB]

 

Gears don't like crankshaft run out where the newer hydraulic tensioners live well with some run out.

[FTBY55]

Thanks all, was considering the S&S 509 if runout is good. Won't purchase until I know for sure first. Otherwise I will go with the hydraulic upgrade. As I said, top will be opened to install rockouts so was wondering if staying with stock pushrods would be better. No adjustment to worry about.

[No Cents]

   to be able to use the factory p/rods over...it's all about the size of the base circles on the cams your wanting to use. You need them to be close in size to the stock cams base circle.
   get yourself a set of Smith Brothers adjustable p/rods and your golden. I've ran a set of them for many years...and they will probably last me for the life of the engine they are in...and then some.


  added later:
while you have your rocker supports out...I'd drill the drain holes out in them to .125"...and make sure it has the stamped breathers in there.

[FSG]

unless you're building a fire breathing beast forget gear drive even if the runout is ZERO /- zero

since the hydraulic upgrade has been available that is the way to go

[FTBY55]

No Cents said:
  added later:
while you have your rocker supports out...I'd drill the drain holes out in them to .125"...and make sure it has the stamped breathers in there.
[/quote]

Thanks, had new breathers installed a few months back when I had the charging system upgraded to three phase system.

[safetyfifth]

Another option, if run out is good of course. Cyco shoes and andrews tw21 cams. That setup has done me well for over 40k miles on my bagger.

I'd say if you are going to go in for cams might as well 95 or 98 the motor and really get some power!

[tdrglide]

  what he said. More than that, it's a slippery slope. 

[Trev T]

the late model (07-16) cam plate assembly with a set of Andrews N cams is the most reliable and cost-effective way to upgrade. remember your .510 limit on lift unless the springs are changed. have never heard of an issue or regret with those that have gone this route.

[FTBY55]

If I decide to upgrade to 100" using the S&S jugs and pistons do I have to do any head work or will stock heads suffice?

[Hossamania]

You don't have to do headwork, but you'll never regret spending the money if you do. You will leave horsepower on the table if you don't, and you're spending money for a horsepower upgrade by going big bore, which then changes your cam choices either way. Remember that slippery slope that was mentioned?
Start with a budget, be realistic. Then decide what you really want to do in the end. Then, make a real plan with real expected results. Doing improvements in steps increases the price and lowers the results. Start with the end product, and work toward that from the beginning.
And no matter what, include money for a proper tune!!

[Hossamania]

See how fast it goes from a $300 tensioner upgrade to a $2000 or more horsepower chase?

[Ohio HD]

I'd spend the S&S cylinder money on boring your cylinders for 95" and then doing mild head work, and set the compression for the cam you use. Better results than just bigger bore.

[jrgreene1968]

See how fast it goes from a $300 tensioner upgrade to a $2000 or more horsepower chase?

No kidding!! I started out going to fix a leaking oring, but decided while I had it apart, I'd do this and that. Then that 1.00 oring ended up costing me $2500 

[Hossamania]

See how fast it goes from a $300 tensioner upgrade to a $2000 or more horsepower chase?

No kidding!! I started out going to fix a leaking oring, but decided while I had it apart, I'd do this and that. Then that 1.00 oring ended up costing me $2500 

I walked in and said "I can't beat everybody, but I have to beat my friends." That cost me almost 4 grand.
Worth every penny!!

[Barrett]

I was just going 103", new cams and a 1.9 I valve.
Checking the runout cost me about $12,000..

[Scotty]

I will say one thing for geared cams though, they don't have any maintenance if installed correctly.
We put a set in a 2001 Road King in 2003 and it has done over 140,000 kms since then with lifters changed once when one was a bit slow pumping up.
The stock exhaust on it has been welded more times than I can remember and the last time he replaced the front pipe around 2 years ago he pulled the cam cover just a for a look and he said it still looked like the day we put it in.
Costly though but then not really if you plan on keeping the bike and don't want to worry about the cam chest to much.

[PoorUB]

I would  expect the newer hydraulic tensioners  to last 100,000 miles or more.

[Scotty]

I would  expect the newer hydraulic tensioners  to last 100,000 miles or more.

I agree the 07 up hydraulic system is a no brainer retro fitting into the 99 up twin cams as they have proven to be a good system I was just pointing out the geared cams do have the same level of confidence especially on the 99-02 cranks which were generally very good.

[FSG]

I would  expect the newer hydraulic tensioners  to last 100,000 miles or more.

I agree the 07 up hydraulic system is a no brainer retro fitting into the 99 up twin cams as they have proven to be a good system I was just pointing out the geared cams do have the same level of confidence especially on the 99-02 cranks which were generally very good.

     as were some of the 03's , my Fatty went Gears very early on in 04 and is still going strong 

[Hossamania]

Love my gear drives, I've not thought about my cam chest since '05.

[rigidthumper]

Now that you've said that, go get new bearings and lifters

[838]

I would  expect the newer hydraulic tensioners  to last 100,000 miles or more.

I agree the 07 up hydraulic system is a no brainer retro fitting into the 99 up twin cams as they have proven to be a good system I was just pointing out the geared cams do have the same level of confidence especially on the 99-02 cranks which were generally very good.

     as were some of the 03's , my Fatty went Gears very early on in 04 and is still going strong

I'm guessing this means early production 03s. Is there a way to tell if an 03 has the more stout bottom end by the vin? Or another way that doesn't require removal of hardware?

[Hossamania]

Now that you've said that, go get new bearings and lifters

I'm due, that's for sure, got about 90,000 miles on them.

[Armin]

Love my gear drives, I've not thought about my cam chest since '05.

Same here, no regret despite the faint whine that I got used to.

Armin.

[Hossamania]

Love my gear drives, I've not thought about my cam chest since '05.

Same here, no regret despite the faint whine that I got used to.

Armin.

Mine had a whine also, I changed to a smaller pinion gear, that took care of the whine.

[smoserx1]

Another option, if run out is good of course. Cyco shoes and andrews tw21 cams. That setup has done me well for over 40k miles on my bagger.

the late model (07-16) cam plate assembly with a set of Andrews N cams is the most reliable and cost-effective way to upgrade. remember your .510 limit on lift unless the springs are changed. have never heard of an issue or regret with those that have gone this route.

Just remember this if you decide to go with hydraulic tensioners.  TW cams are regular chain driven cams like H-D used from 99 to 06 and N cams are conversion cams that other than the inboard journal diameter are identical in installation to the 07 and up cams.  That means that no bearings are used in the cam plate and that both the outboard and inboard chains are roller type.  Harley offers a "hybrid" kit by screaming eagle that allows you to use any old style cam with hydraulic tensioners but it retains the bearings in the cam plate plus the inner chain remains the older silent type, and some folks  suspect it contributes to tensioner wear.  And finally it requires pressing the bearings into the plate (unless you are willing to use some procedures like heating the plate and freezing the cams and bearings).  IMO the conversion cam is a better design.  I have used it with a set of 21N cams for over 50000 miles so far.

[FTBY55]

Start with a budget, be realistic. Then decide what you really want to do in the end. Then, make a real plan with real expected results. Doing improvements in steps increases the price and lowers the results. Start with the end product, and work toward that from the beginning.
And no matter what, include money for a proper tune!!

Hoss,

I'm looking for a bombproof daily rider able to run at 3500 to 4000 rpm for hours, traffic flows at 85 here and afternoon temps are 100 to 120. Already have loveJugs installed. Want to beef up the oil system too. Love low end tractor pulling grunt and usually shift below 5000 rpm. Not looking for a rocket.  would like to get the most bang for the buck. Currently stage one with slip-ons, S/E air cleaner and flash when purchased in '02,  any Suggestions would be appreciated.     

[Hossamania]

I'd spend the S&S cylinder money on boring your cylinders for 95" and then doing mild head work, and set the compression for the cam you use. Better results than just bigger bore.

That's probably the best advice. Go with the hydraulic conversion, and new lifters. Again, I like gear drive cams, but they are not a necessity, and not always the best choice. Check run-out if leaning toward them. New oil pump doesn't hurt.
As far as cams, talk with your head porter for suggestions. At those cruising rpm's, Andrews 26 might be in the ballpark.
And like most others here, I feel a proper tune is a necessity.

[K4FXD]

The way I see it is if you want a quiet motor, go with the chains. If you want true valve timing, go with gears.

[838]

 I'm looking for a bombproof daily rider able to run at 3500 to 4000 rpm for hours, traffic flows at 85 here and afternoon temps are 100 to 120. Already have loveJugs installed. Want to beef up the oil system too. Love low end tractor pulling grunt and usually shift below 5000 rpm. Not looking for a rocket.  would like to get the most bang for the buck. Currently stage one with slip-ons, S/E air cleaner and flash when purchased in '02,  any Suggestions would be appreciated.   
[/quote]

I just got off my 05 ultra had my cylinders bored to 95" with SE cast flat tops, and heads balanced at 78cc I did an Andrews 48N conversion cam with a Daytona oil pump.

Traffic was flowing pretty fast today and I was at 80-85 mph for about an hour straight. At this speed roll the throttle and you are pretty quick to 100mph. At 85 mph I'm at 3200-3300 rpms. Pulled off the freeway and sat at a light for about 3min, oil pressure dropped to a low of 20

The Andrews 48 seems to like the 4" stroke of the 95". Smooth and responsive in the rpms we ride most. And you can find 05 and up heads on eBay for cheap.