HarleyTechTalk

Welp, found the issue.... The retaining ring that goes against the crank bearing was sitting in the bottom of the cam chest and the oil pump drive gear and worm gear are a bit chewed up but not terribly bad. cam, pinion, and breather gears all look fine. Lifters and rollers are also good.

It seems the pump drive gear key sheared and unclear about the keys in the pump itself. I pulled the outer pump cover off and removed the pressure side idler, it looks fine. But the pressure side drive gear will not budge. I got the circlip off it but cannot get it to slide off the shaft.

Will continue tearing it down tomorrow.

Time to pull the Cam cover

Quote from: SixShooter14 on December 17, 2023, 04:35:58 PMWelp, found the issue.... The retaining ring that goes against the crank bearing was sitting in the bottom of the cam chest and the oil pump drive gear and worm gear are a bit chewed up but not terribly bad. cam, pinion, and breather gears all look fine. Lifters and rollers are also good.

It seems the pump drive gear key sheared and unclear about the keys in the pump itself. I pulled the outer pump cover off and removed the pressure side idler, it looks fine. But the pressure side drive gear will not budge. I got the circlip off it but cannot get it to slide off the shaft.

Will continue tearing it down tomorrow.

Six, all the way through this thread I was having a flashback but didn't want to believe it was what happened to you. I figured it had to be related to the dealer service. I was on a road trip to Vancouver Island and went to the car wash in Duncan.  About 2 blocks later no oil pressure.  I did all the oil pressure tests I mentioned and no joy.  Off with the cam cover.  The pinion bearing end that holds the rollers in had broke away and headed straight for the oil pump.  The same results as you.

Here's the tough part.  While that pump was chewing on the shrapnel, it was feeding the fine stuff to the rest of the engine.  I was lucky enough (if you want to call it that) to be in Duncan which is about 20 minutes from Cobble Hill and  a good friend Marve Brimicome.  He was a world record holding top fuel sand drag racer (Marves Speed Shop - Experi-mental Racing) He passed away a few years ago but had a full machine shop. We knocked the sidecar off and pulled the engine for a full rebuild.

Be careful about short cuts.  If the brand new oil is sparkling, there's bits in the cam case and there's slivers on the magnet. you get the rest. It's probably already been sent to the crank and rods because you were riding it, so it'll be split the wheels.  Time for a winter stroker project to make some lemonade.  I feel your pain bud.  The difference is, I was a four day ride from home and had to do it then and there.

 



terrible or bad luck



 

Ultima 113.

 

-JW

Why do you think it split the clip? The crank main Pinion bearing fail first?

Doesn't this clip type arrangement go back to 1970 when the cone first came out? 
I'm thinking maybe the earlier type loose roller/cage bearing arrangement is a better choice than the Evo type where its the captured all in one bearing. 

Maybe worth going to the other type if interchangeable which I think you can. 

The Evo bearing slip on race is supposedly OD ground in place after installation, but I never seen or heard of anyone actually doing it.

Quote from: 98s1lightning on December 18, 2023, 08:51:06 AMWhy do you think it split the clip? The crank main Pinion bearing fail first?

Doesn't this clip type arrangement go back to 1970 when the cone first came out?
I'm thinking maybe the earlier type loose roller/cage bearing arrangement is a better choice than the Evo type where its the captured all in one bearing.

Maybe worth going to the other type if interchangeable which I think you can.

The Evo bearing slip on race is supposedly OD ground in place after installation, but I never seen or heard of anyone actually doing it.

I've wondered the same thing. Maybe the dealer used an impact when removing or installing the comp nut and that hammered the bearing race against the clip? IDK

another possibility.... When I replaced that ring back in April I did have a little trouble getting the ring on. I felt like I overstretched/twisted it at the time. I turned it around the shaft and made sure it was in the ring, but wasn't 100% confident. So perhaps I did have it a bit out parallel and it just finally let go.

Quote from: SixShooter14 on December 18, 2023, 10:13:50 AM

Quote from: 98s1lightning on December 18, 2023, 08:51:06 AMWhy do you think it split the clip? The crank main Pinion bearing fail first?

Doesn't this clip type arrangement go back to 1970 when the cone first came out?
I'm thinking maybe the earlier type loose roller/cage bearing arrangement is a better choice than the Evo type where its the captured all in one bearing.

Maybe worth going to the other type if interchangeable which I think you can.

The Evo bearing slip on race is supposedly OD ground in place after installation, but I never seen or heard of anyone actually doing it.

I've wondered the same thing. Maybe the dealer used an impact when removing or installing the comp nut and that hammered the bearing race against the clip? IDK

another possibility.... When I replaced that ring back in April I did have a little trouble getting the ring on. I felt like I overstretched/twisted it at the time. I turned it around the shaft and made sure it was in the ring, but wasn't 100% confident. So perhaps I did have it a bit out parallel and it just finally let go.

.

Six, do you remember if the sharp side of the clip was facing out.  If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks.  I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.

Quote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 11:09:22 AMSix, do you rennet if the sharp side of the clip was facing out.  If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks.  I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.

I sure don't. I'll give it a look and may can tell.

Quote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 11:09:22 AMSix, do you remember if the sharp side of the clip was facing out.  If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks.  I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.

There's a witness mark matching the bearing race on the clip. It appears that that side is the sharper/square side, if I'm reading it right. The other has some chewed up marks and is mangled a bit, but appears to be slightly beveled.

So....I think... the inner pinion bearing race walked out, ran against the clip for unknown amount of time. The clip eventually let go and was chewed up.

Second event, the pump drive gear key is sheared and the scavenge gears are seized up, assuming they pulled in some chunk of ring and locked up/chewed up the pump shaft and housing.

Now the question is... what to do next?

Seems like the answer is pull the engine?

then R&R it or just pay the money and go S&S/Ultima crate? I'm thinking a V111 long block might be in the future?     

Quote from: SixShooter14 on December 18, 2023, 07:09:43 PM

Quote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 11:09:22 AMSix, do you remember if the sharp side of the clip was facing out.  If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks.  I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.

There's a witness mark matching the bearing race on the clip. It appears that that side is the sharper/square side, if I'm reading it right. The other has some chewed up marks and is mangled a bit, but appears to be slightly beveled.

So....I think... the inner pinion bearing race walked out, ran against the clip for unknown amount of time. The clip eventually let go and was chewed up.

Second event, the pump drive gear key is sheared and the scavenge gears are seized up, assuming they pulled in some chunk of ring and locked up/chewed up the pump shaft and housing.

As said, the sharp edge should have been out.  That's what stops it from escaping.  I know, pretty flimsy but normal in most installations of spring retainer rings (including wrist pins etc).  One thing that will cause relentless pushing on the pinion bearing is flywheel runout.  The "wobble" works the bearing case outwards in the bore.  There's not much holding it back like the other side.  While you have it opened up, measure the pinion side runout and you'll get an idea if that was contributing to the failure along with the clip position.  If the runout is excessive you'll know that you need a plan.   

Quote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 08:34:47 PMAs said, the sharp edge should have been out.  That's what stops it from escaping.  I know, pretty flimsy but normal in most installations of spring retainer rings (including wrist pins etc).  One thing that will cause relentless pushing on the pinion bearing is flywheel runout.  The "wobble" works the bearing case outwards in the bore.  There's not much holding it back like the other side.  While you have it opened up, measure the pinion side runout and you'll get an idea if that was contributing to the failure along with the clip position. If the runout is excessive you'll know that you need a plan.   

I don't have a pinion runout tool right now, but will definitely get one for the future. This is the 2nd time that inner race has walked out. So I'm betting that's the issue. It's a stock bottom end with 61k miles on it. about 8k of that with the increased compression and cam. Seems the added power is just looking for the weakest link and found it.

The engine has to be pulled regardless to replace the buggered oil pump shaft and bushing. The shaft is pretty mangled and has some resistance in turning. If I'm pulling it, I might as well replace with something bigger. I think I will do the repairs on this 80" and keep an eye out for a deal on an EVO project bike to stick it in.

It's still early winter here, so I might was well get into it.
$6k on a V111 seems like the route I'm going. Along with clutch and probably a DD6, but still some research to do on picking the trans.

I would suggest looking for input from guys who have used or has experience with either S&S or Ultima crate motors for Evo. Such as jsachs1, wfolarry, turboprop, JW113, Deye76. I'm sure there are others, but these guys come to mind.

Sometimes the crate motors can have built in issues.

Quote from: SixShooter14 on December 19, 2023, 01:36:04 PM

Quote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 08:34:47 PMAs said, the sharp edge should have been out.  That's what stops it from escaping.  I know, pretty flimsy but normal in most installations of spring retainer rings (including wrist pins etc).  One thing that will cause relentless pushing on the pinion bearing is flywheel runout.  The "wobble" works the bearing case outwards in the bore.  There's not much holding it back like the other side.  While you have it opened up, measure the pinion side runout and you'll get an idea if that was contributing to the failure along with the clip position. If the runout is excessive you'll know that you need a plan.   

I don't have a pinion runout tool right now, but will definitely get one for the future. This is the 2nd time that inner race has walked out. So I'm betting that's the issue. It's a stock bottom end with 61k miles on it. about 8k of that with the increased compression and cam. Seems the added power is just looking for the weakest link and found it.

The engine has to be pulled regardless to replace the buggered oil pump shaft and bushing. The shaft is pretty mangled and has some resistance in turning. If I'm pulling it, I might as well replace with something bigger. I think I will do the repairs on this 80" and keep an eye out for a deal on an EVO project bike to stick it in.

It's still early winter here, so I might was well get into it.
$6k on a V111 seems like the route I'm going. Along with clutch and probably a DD6, but still some research to do on picking the trans.

I'd also look at having your motor rebuilt professionally. An 80 inch motor with some headwork, a decent cam, carburetor to match, can make a fine running bike for less than a crate motor.

A guy can also use S&S 3-5/8 cylinders with the stock 4-1/4 stroke making an 88 incher. Smoother than a longer stroke, and capable of making lots of torque. I'd be tempted to go that route.

Ultima is having a sale on their engines. FWIW, they are a strong, usually trouble free engine.
John

Quote from: jsachs1 on December 19, 2023, 02:25:33 PMUltima is having a sale on their engines. FWIW, they are a strong, usually trouble free engine.
John

I appreciate it. I certainly haven't ruled out the 113 or bigger Ultimas.

I'd ditch the OEM Evo style pinion shaft that uses thinner race and put a set of S&S flywheels in it that take a 1 pc shaft.
But then I think you would have to swap cam covers to a early evo/shovel style. The pinion race location offset is different.


https://www.sscycle.com › docs › default-source › instruction-sheets › 51-1021_pinionshaftsbt_20060406.pdf?sfvrsn=4

Quote from: Ohio HD on December 19, 2023, 02:21:30 PMI'd also look at having your motor rebuilt professionally. An 80 inch motor with some headwork, a decent cam, carburetor to match, can make a fine running bike for less than a crate motor.

A guy can also use S&S 3-5/8 cylinders with the stock 4-1/4 stroke making an 88 incher. Smoother than a longer stroke, and capable of making lots of torque. I'd be tempted to go that route.

Yeah, that's the likely plan for the current 80". Send it out or at least the bottom end and crank out for a rebuild. It's a strong engine but $4k for the Ultima is mighty tempting.

But for now...
I'll check that pinion runout that KD mentioned above. Then I'll have a better idea as to what kind of shape this engine is in.

Or just fix what needs fixin' as cheap as possible and run it 'til it blows.
I know, blasphemy.

Quote from: jsachs1 on December 19, 2023, 02:25:33 PMUltima is having a sale on their engines. FWIW, they are a strong, usually trouble free engine.
John

If it was me I'd get in contact with John Sachs (^) of Sachs Race Bikes and have him do an Ultima motor to meet your needs and desires.  He's an industry insider and has been intimately involved in many things Harley and high performance including Ultima engines.  You won't be sorry...

Quote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 08:34:47 PM

Quote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 11:09:22 AMSix, do you remember if the sharp side of the clip was facing out.  If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks.  I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.

As said, the sharp edge should have been out.  That's what stops it from escaping.  I know, pretty flimsy but normal in most installations of spring retainer rings (including wrist pins etc).  One thing that will cause relentless pushing on the pinion bearing is flywheel runout.  The "wobble" works the bearing case outwards in the bore.  There's not much holding it back like the other side.  While you have it opened up, measure the pinion side runout and you'll get an idea if that was contributing to the failure along with the clip position.  If the runout is excessive you'll know that you need a plan.   

I have the new S&S retainer ring, the same as the previous one and it doesn't look beveled at all, both sides are sharp... 

Regardless, I finally got the runout measured... right at 0.004" when turning the engine and a little less than 0.001" lifting on the end of the shaft.

Quote from: SixShooter14 on January 07, 2024, 07:01:18 PM

Quote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 08:34:47 PM

Quote from: kd on December 18, 2023, 11:09:22 AMSix, do you remember if the sharp side of the clip was facing out.  If there's enough remaining you may be able to tell by witness marks.  I realize it's after the face but generally the sharp side goes out so it grips in the groove.

As said, the sharp edge should have been out.  That's what stops it from escaping.  I know, pretty flimsy but normal in most installations of spring retainer rings (including wrist pins etc).  One thing that will cause relentless pushing on the pinion bearing is flywheel runout.  The "wobble" works the bearing case outwards in the bore.  There's not much holding it back like the others side.  While you have it opened up, measure the pinion side runout and you'll get an idea if that was contributing to the failure along with the clip position.  If the runout is excessive you'll know that you need a plan.   

I have the new S&S retainer ring, the same as the previous one and it doesn't look beveled at all, both sides are sharp... 

Regardless, I finally got the runout measured... right at 0.004" when turning the engine and a little less than 0.001" lifting on the end of the shaft.

.

It appears to me your crank is good on runout.  If you don't break it down at least check the rod play per the manual.  If the play there is good do a super flush over and over while rotating it to make sure the are no fines left in the rod bearings and gallery.  Don't go cheap on the flushing agent.  Use plenty clean.  Save the runoff and after it settles you can run it through a filter paper to see what you have.

Here's a little trick for checking what you're flushing out.  Catch the solvent you are using to clean the bearings and galleries in a surgical clean container and save it to another equally clean one. (Use a gentle air nozzle etc to clean the galleries.  Pour the solvent you drain off into the other container.  Add a cup or so of water to the second can and let it settle for 24 hrs.  Any metal bits will settle into the water and be trapped.  Carefully drain off the solvent into the original container to be used for cleaning parts later.  Carefully trickle the water and residue onto a fine preferably white paper towel.  A magnifying glass can be used to examine your catch. 

The oil pan is another issue.

 When you look at the retainer you will see it is stamped out.  The side the stamp mill pushes the washer slug out from will have a slightly sharper perimeter edge.  That edge should go out as it will have a better bite and help it stay in place.  Hopefully the groove is clean and sharp without burrs.

Isn't Ultima made in China. 
Also the retaining clips are pressed so the inside diameter of clip has a slight bevel as KD said. You can feel it on your finger nail. Sharp edge faces away from flywheel to seat against the groove in pinion shaft . As you say you popped it twice check the pinion shaft groove