se 24tpi s&s premium lifters 3 turns 3.2 flats or 3 .3 flats for .135ish ?
Based on 24 TPI
2.4 turns (14 flats) = 0.100" depth
2.9 turns (17 flats) = 0.120" depth
1 flat = 0.2 turns (0.007" depth)
If no limiters in the lifters I always set the SE at 3 turns
Quote from: aharp on May 26, 2020, 06:19:43 AM
If no limiters in the lifters I always set the SE at 3 turns
Is this the same with their new "premier" lifters. Tech at s&s told me 4 turns with the premiers and the quickee pushrods, but it's pretty loud at 4. 110" 85cc heads 570 s&s cam.
What weight valve springs in those 110 heads?
They're stock 103 heads with a little work done kibblewhite oviate wire .610 valve springs.
I just put a set of s&s premium lifters with screaming eagle puts rods 24 thread pitch. I started with 2 1/2 turns still noisy. Then went to 3 turns a lot better. If I would do it again I would do 3.2 to 3.5 turns.
We load the lifter to .140-.150", and have done so for years.
Quote from: 838 on May 26, 2020, 09:10:10 PM
They're stock 103 heads with a little work done kibblewhite oviate wire .610 valve springs.
Bingo, that's where you went wrong. Stockers would have served you better. Stockers are good for .600 lift and are 130# seat @ 1.85", those beehives are 180#. There are other springs available to replace the stockers that have lower seat pressure than the KWs, which is all that is needed and is easier on parts plus will run quieter.
The lifter preload thing is a bunch of noise in my opinion. If the lifters are mid travel they will be quiet or not and other preloads will have minimal influence. The slow bleed variety of lifters help but will still compress if the conditions are right like springs with too much seat pressure. Cams lift rate is an influence, the 570 is mild. So if you have noise and the lifters are mid travel look elsewhere for noise sources assuming the lifters are not junk. Many times I have set them a few flats off the bottom when I have one noisy but that is a band aid not a fix.
We have proven time and again, day in, day out here, at our full-time shop, that the .140", to .150" dimension works.
And is markedly quieter at full engine operating temps as well.
What if you are using stock (or in may case, Smith brothers) or non-adjustable rods on a 103 with Andrews 48's, and you still have the "clack" at about 2700? Even after installing Rocker lockers. Go adjustable?
Quote from: Propflux01 on June 17, 2020, 06:37:53 PM
What if you are using stock (or in may case, Smith brothers) or non-adjustable rods on a 103 with Andrews 48's, and you still have the "clack" at about 2700? Even after installing Rocker lockers. Go adjustable?
Have the pushrod tubes been clearanced?
Were the lifters replaced, if so, what type?
Load the lifter to .145".
Enjoy the quiet.
Quote from: Hossamania on June 17, 2020, 08:58:45 PM
Quote from: Propflux01 on June 17, 2020, 06:37:53 PM
What if you are using stock (or in may case, Smith brothers) or non-adjustable rods on a 103 with Andrews 48's, and you still have the "clack" at about 2700? Even after installing Rocker lockers. Go adjustable?
Have the pushrod tubes been clearanced?
Were the lifters replaced, if so, what type?
There is no evidence of clearance issues/markings on either the tubes or the pushrods. All 4 lifter were replaced with S&S Premiums.
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on June 18, 2020, 03:46:02 AM
Load the lifter to .145".
Enjoy the quiet.
They are not adjustable.
Quote from: Propflux01 on June 18, 2020, 07:27:41 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on June 17, 2020, 08:58:45 PM
Quote from: Propflux01 on June 17, 2020, 06:37:53 PM
What if you are using stock (or in may case, Smith brothers) or non-adjustable rods on a 103 with Andrews 48's, and you still have the "clack" at about 2700? Even after installing Rocker lockers. Go adjustable?
Have the pushrod tubes been clearanced?
Were the lifters replaced, if so, what type?
There is no evidence of clearance issues/markings on either the tubes or the pushrods. All 4 lifter were replaced with S&S Premiums.
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on June 18, 2020, 03:46:02 AM
Load the lifter to .145".
Enjoy the quiet.
They are not adjustable.
Hillside is saying they should be.
Quote from: Propflux01 on June 17, 2020, 06:37:53 PM
What if you are using stock (or in may case, Smith brothers) or non-adjustable rods on a 103 with Andrews 48's, and you still have the "clack" at about 2700? Even after installing Rocker lockers. Go adjustable?
Ive had "clack" in the 2300-2700rpm range and found excessive clearance in the rocker arm bushings.
Quote from: Propflux01 on June 17, 2020, 06:37:53 PM
What if you are using stock (or in may case, Smith brothers) or non-adjustable rods on a 103 with Andrews 48's, and you still have the "clack" at about 2700? Even after installing Rocker lockers. Go adjustable?
One of my bikes has the Andrews 48's in it. I used Smith Brothers +0.020" length pushrods. If I recall correctly the 48's have a 0.010" less diameter base circle compared to stock cams. So using a +0.020" or 0.030" solid push rod gets you in a little better relation to lifter cup depth. You can buy SE +0.030" pushrods or order from Smith Brothers what ever length you wish. Mine is not quieter nor does it make anymore noise than it did with the stock cams.
Quote from: Ohio HD on June 19, 2020, 04:53:47 AM
Quote from: Propflux01 on June 17, 2020, 06:37:53 PM
What if you are using stock (or in may case, Smith brothers) or non-adjustable rods on a 103 with Andrews 48's, and you still have the "clack" at about 2700? Even after installing Rocker lockers. Go adjustable?
One of my bikes has the Andrews 48's in it. I used Smith Brothers +0.020" length pushrods. If I recall correctly the 48's have a 0.010" less diameter base circle compared to stock cams. So using a +0.020" or 0.030" solid push rod gets you in a little better relation to lifter cup depth. You can buy SE +0.030" pushrods or order from Smith Brothers what ever length you wish. Mine is not quieter nor does it make anymore noise than it did with the stock cams.
That is exactly what I did. Measured and added 020 to make up the base, even though I was told the lifter could more than handle the extra 020. This is why I'm so confused about the noise.
Quote from: Kllongbrake on June 19, 2020, 04:35:50 AM
Quote from: Propflux01 on June 17, 2020, 06:37:53 PM
What if you are using stock (or in may case, Smith brothers) or non-adjustable rods on a 103 with Andrews 48's, and you still have the "clack" at about 2700? Even after installing Rocker lockers. Go adjustable?
Ive had "clack" in the 2300-2700rpm range and found excessive clearance in the rocker arm bushings.
Side clearance? Or axial?
Years ago I chased my tail with a brand of cams that had extremely fast ramps and learned many things. Lighter spring pressure did not help and if the spring pressure was too light the valves loft even at midrange engine speeds, not good. Then went after rocker arm shims, very little help. Lifter preload with Harley B lifters, little to no difference. All issues went away when I had Andrews grind me a cam to my specs. Most of Andrews native grinds have reasonable ramps. The grinds they make for others are hit and miss. Bottom line don't expect a cam with overly fast ramps to run quiet, that is the root cause. Go ahead and knock yourself out with all the "fixes", many have tried. Only caveat to that is rocker lockers and if the shafts are loose in the supports and clacking. The rocker lockers fix that. Adding adjustable pushrods VS properly fitted fixed length pushrods offers no advantage other than the versatility for future changes.
One thing I have found time and time again is the wrong weight oil being run for the ambient air temp. I have seen (heard) it myself in back to back testing that I did. Makes a world of difference in engine noise.
Quote from: Propflux01 on June 19, 2020, 06:26:45 AM
Quote from: Kllongbrake on June 19, 2020, 04:35:50 AM
Quote from: Propflux01 on June 17, 2020, 06:37:53 PM
What if you are using stock (or in may case, Smith brothers) or non-adjustable rods on a 103 with Andrews 48's, and you still have the "clack" at about 2700? Even after installing Rocker lockers. Go adjustable?
Ive had "clack" in the 2300-2700rpm range and found excessive clearance in the rocker arm bushings.
Side clearance? Or axial?
Hahaha...I don't honestly know axial from radial. It wasn't side clearance. The bushings were worn to .008+ clearance in the bore and some beginning to crack. When I replaced with new S&S arms and shafts...no more clack in the mid to high 2000rpm range. I did also replace the plates with Vulcan but I don't think that played any part at all in it.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on June 19, 2020, 06:51:15 AM
Years ago I chased my tail with a brand of cams that had extremely fast ramps and learned many things. Lighter spring pressure did not help and if the spring pressure was too light the valves loft even at midrange engine speeds, not good. Then went after rocker arm shims, very little help. Lifter preload with Harley B lifters, little to no difference. All issues went away when I had Andrews grind me a cam to my specs. Most of Andrews native grinds have reasonable ramps. The grinds they make for others are hit and miss. Bottom line don't expect a cam with overly fast ramps to run quiet, that is the root cause. Go ahead and knock yourself out with all the "fixes", many have tried. Only caveat to that is rocker lockers and if the shafts are loose in the supports and clacking. The rocker lockers fix that. Adding adjustable pushrods VS properly fitted fixed length pushrods offers no advantage other than the versatility for future changes.
Would you consider Andrews 48s to have 'fast' enough ramps to cause noise? I haven't heard many complaints about them in that department.
Quote from: Kllongbrake on June 20, 2020, 06:29:28 AM
Quote from: Propflux01 on June 19, 2020, 06:26:45 AM
Quote from: Kllongbrake on June 19, 2020, 04:35:50 AM
Quote from: Propflux01 on June 17, 2020, 06:37:53 PM
What if you are using stock (or in may case, Smith brothers) or non-adjustable rods on a 103 with Andrews 48's, and you still have the "clack" at about 2700? Even after installing Rocker lockers. Go adjustable?
Ive had "clack" in the 2300-2700rpm range and found excessive clearance in the rocker arm bushings.
Side clearance? Or axial?
Hahaha...I don't honestly know axial from radial. It wasn't side clearance. The bushings were worn to .008+ clearance in the bore and some beginning to crack. When I replaced with new S&S arms and shafts...no more clack in the mid to high 2000rpm range. I did also replace the plates with Vulcan but I don't think that played any part at all in it.
Thank you, something to look at for me.
Quote from: Propflux01 on June 20, 2020, 07:05:11 AM
Quote from: HD Street Performance on June 19, 2020, 06:51:15 AM
Years ago I chased my tail with a brand of cams that had extremely fast ramps and learned many things. Lighter spring pressure did not help and if the spring pressure was too light the valves loft even at midrange engine speeds, not good. Then went after rocker arm shims, very little help. Lifter preload with Harley B lifters, little to no difference. All issues went away when I had Andrews grind me a cam to my specs. Most of Andrews native grinds have reasonable ramps. The grinds they make for others are hit and miss. Bottom line don't expect a cam with overly fast ramps to run quiet, that is the root cause. Go ahead and knock yourself out with all the "fixes", many have tried. Only caveat to that is rocker lockers and if the shafts are loose in the supports and clacking. The rocker lockers fix that. Adding adjustable pushrods VS properly fitted fixed length pushrods offers no advantage other than the versatility for future changes.
Would you consider Andrews 48s to have 'fast' enough ramps to cause noise? I haven't heard many complaints about them in that department.
I don't know. I have not personally installed them. When looking for a bolt-in that works well I usually look to TTS or S&S MR103
I did an Andrews 48 with stock pushrods in a 2009 FLHX 96". It was quiet. Lifters were WFO Larry slow leak down type.
Quote from: aharp on June 20, 2020, 01:53:51 AM
One thing I have found time and time again is the wrong weight oil being run for the ambient air temp. I have seen (heard) it myself in back to back testing that I did. Makes a world of difference in engine noise.
What he said. ^^^^^
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on May 31, 2020, 05:08:07 AM
We have proven time and again, day in, day out here, at our full-time shop, that the .140", to .150" dimension works.
And is markedly quieter at full engine operating temps as well.
Would this be the same for a CVO SG 110ci, Stock Engine with SE Adjustable Pushrods and S&S Premium lifters?
My engine is very quiet at idle and cruising speed but have the well know rocker shaft clatter at 2600-2800 rpm.
I currently have the lifters set as per OEM specs 2-1/2 turns plus an additional spanner flat. (Approx 0.110")
Quote from: wildchild on June 28, 2020, 07:43:03 PM
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on May 31, 2020, 05:08:07 AM
We have proven time and again, day in, day out here, at our full-time shop, that the .140", to .150" dimension works.
And is markedly quieter at full engine operating temps as well.
Would this be the same for a CVO SG 110ci, Stock Engine with SE Adjustable Pushrods and S&S Premium lifters?
My engine is very quiet at idle and cruising speed but have the well know rocker shaft clatter at 2600-2800 rpm.
I currently have the lifters set as per OEM specs 2-1/2 turns plus an additional spanner flat. (Approx 0.110")
Should help, but the triple-wound Comp Cam valve spring pressure is more than likely the culprit on that CVO.
To preload a lifter to .140 how many flats down would you go on a S&S quickie push rod?
Quote from: wildchild on June 28, 2020, 07:43:03 PM
Would this be the same for a CVO SG 110ci, Stock Engine with SE Adjustable Pushrods and S&S Premium lifters?
My engine is very quiet at idle and cruising speed but have the well know rocker shaft clatter at 2600-2800 rpm.
I currently have the lifters set as per OEM specs 2-1/2 turns plus an additional spanner flat. (Approx 0.110")
A cam change to a grind with slower ramps eliminates that noise, its the fast ramps of the SE255 that are the culprit. The spring pressure is not excessive, a myth. Actually the .650 lift beehives most use as a "fix" have more seat pressure than the dual springs on the CVO. I use a 1.375" lighter weight dual spring as a replacement. Similar pressure but no flat wire damper.
Now preload doesn't and never mattered because it is not the root cause of the issue. If heads have been severely milled {pushrods hitting in tubes}, geometry {protrusion}is messed up, high ratio rockers are in play {pushrods jumping out of the rocker socket}, non-concentric valve seats, or shafts are slapping the bolts well those are separate issues that can create noise issues.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on June 29, 2020, 06:15:23 AM
Quote from: wildchild on June 28, 2020, 07:43:03 PM
Would this be the same for a CVO SG 110ci, Stock Engine with SE Adjustable Pushrods and S&S Premium lifters?
My engine is very quiet at idle and cruising speed but have the well know rocker shaft clatter at 2600-2800 rpm.
I currently have the lifters set as per OEM specs 2-1/2 turns plus an additional spanner flat. (Approx 0.110")
A cam change to a grind with slower ramps eliminates that noise, its the fast ramps of the SE255 that are the culprit. The spring pressure is not excessive, a myth. Actually the .650 lift beehives most use as a "fix" have more seat pressure than the dual springs on the CVO. I use a 1.375" lighter weight dual spring as a replacement. Similar pressure but no flat wire damper.
Now preload doesn't and never mattered because it is not the root cause of the issue. If heads have been severely milled {pushrods hitting in tubes}, geometry {protrusion}is messed up, high ratio rockers are in play {pushrods jumping out of the rocker socket}, non-concentric valve seats, or shafts are slapping the bolts well those are separate issues that can create noise issues.
Thanks for the info, here's the outcome plus I have a question in relation to plunger depth.
Set lifters at 3 turns + 1 Flat (.133") doesn't seem to be much different with valve train noise.
Setting the plunger deeper into the lifter how does this benefit the lifter and does it effect the pump up now that travel has been reduced?
You're hearing valve train dynamics in that speed range. The lifter is not a jack. It just takes up space. It does so equally well unless it is bottomed out or run up too high in the ~.200 travel. I have quieted down many CVO 110s including my own. It takes a cam change, lifters, valve springs (i do not use beehives), and possibly rocker lockers. Will be quiet even with stock pushrods. One last thing that can present and sound like valve train noise, piston slap. The distinct difference, piston slap is worse cold, valve train noise is worse hot.
Quote from: aharp on June 20, 2020, 01:53:51 AM
One thing I have found time and time again is the wrong weight oil being run for the ambient air temp. I have seen (heard) it myself in back to back testing that I did. Makes a world of difference in engine noise.
No body reads the front of the manual.
It says to use 60w oil in temps over 80°f. Yes even on a twincam.
20-50W oil seems to be the soup du jure, but many don't bother with an oil cooler.
I used to maintain 2 rental fleets of twincam bikes we equipped them all with oil coolers and used Silkolene 20-50W
Not a single motor experienced chain tensioner or cam bearing failures. <when that was all the rage...
This was 50+ (100) different bikes (rentals that got run hard).
Quote from: Burnout on July 08, 2020, 02:11:32 PM
Quote from: aharp on June 20, 2020, 01:53:51 AM
One thing I have found time and time again is the wrong weight oil being run for the ambient air temp. I have seen (heard) it myself in back to back testing that I did. Makes a world of difference in engine noise.
No body reads the front of the manual.
It says to use 60w oil in temps over 80°f. Yes even on a twincam.
20-50W oil seems to be the soup du jure, but many don't bother with an oil cooler.
I used to maintain 2 rental fleets of twincam bikes we equipped them all with oil coolers and used Silkolene 20-50W
Not a single motor experienced chain tensioner or cam bearing failures. <when that was all the rage...
This was 50+ (100) different bikes (rentals that got run hard).
Yep. Amsoil 60wt full synthetic is my 100% go to. At room temp it's thinner than HD 2050 and WAY quieter than 2050 on a hot day. I run it year round.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 06, 2020, 06:28:17 PM
You're hearing valve train dynamics in that speed range. The lifter is not a jack. It just takes up space. It does so equally well unless it is bottomed out or run up too high in the ~.200 travel. I have quieted down many CVO 110s including my own. It takes a cam change, lifters, valve springs (i do not use beehives), and possibly rocker lockers. Will be quiet even with stock pushrods. One last thing that can present and sound like valve train noise, piston slap. The distinct difference, piston slap is worse cold, valve train noise is worse hot.
Does plunger depth effect oil flow to the push rods?
No
Quote from: kd on July 13, 2020, 02:40:37 PM
No
Reason I asked here is with the wealth of knowledge and experiences encountered over the years with lifter issues is that S&S Tech support commented on the same question (Very Little).
I did't think it would make any difference but S&S tech support suggests it makes a little difference in oil flow to push rods.
Quote from: kd on July 13, 2020, 02:40:37 PM
No
in
99.9% of the cases '
NO' is correct
BUT depending on the lifter (they're not all the same) the oil flow could be blocked off if set too deep OR if someone decided to set them off the bottom to reduce travel
Quote from: FSG on July 13, 2020, 03:02:34 PM
Quote from: kd on July 13, 2020, 02:40:37 PM
No
in 99.9% of the cases 'NO' is correct BUT depending on the lifter (they're not all the same) the oil flow could be blocked off if set too deep OR if someone decided to set them off the bottom to reduce travel
:up:
Which is why... 'drum roll' limiters are about 0.110" thick.
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 13, 2020, 03:58:26 PM
Quote from: FSG on July 13, 2020, 03:02:34 PM
Quote from: kd on July 13, 2020, 02:40:37 PM
No
in 99.9% of the cases 'NO' is correct BUT depending on the lifter (they're not all the same) the oil flow could be blocked off if set too deep OR if someone decided to set them off the bottom to reduce travel
:up:
Which is why... 'drum roll' limiters are about 0.110" thick.
Is this the same for S&S limiters?
Quote from: wildchild on July 13, 2020, 04:22:31 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 13, 2020, 03:58:26 PM
Quote from: FSG on July 13, 2020, 03:02:34 PM
Quote from: kd on July 13, 2020, 02:40:37 PM
No
in 99.9% of the cases 'NO' is correct BUT depending on the lifter (they're not all the same) the oil flow could be blocked off if set too deep OR if someone decided to set them off the bottom to reduce travel
:up:
Which is why... 'drum roll' limiters are about 0.110" thick.
Is this the same for S&S limiters?
Yes, here's some samples that FSG measured a while back. They vary slightly.
[attach=0]
Perfect, thanks.
For 24 tpi pushrods using S&S Premium lifters w/o limiters S&S suggest to set lifters at 3 turns and OEM spec is 2 1/2 turns.
What are your thoughts on where to set lifters (OEM or S&S specs) ?
If you have limiters, neither.
If not using limiters, either will be fine. 1/2 turn is 0.042". I'd just set them at 2-1/2 turns, 15 flats. I've never seen adding more turns benefit anything. As long as you're accurate with the zero lash, then you're good.
Setting them a little deeper can be helpful with hot starts if you get bleed down. It is particularly more noticeable with some cams and higher compression ratios in hot climates.
If you have bleed off, you "probably" have startup ticking until it builds back up. Need better lifters and or limiters.
In my opinion if you use adjustable push rods, go with limiters as well.
Spring pressure matters. With 200+ lbs of seat pressure on some of the big builds the lifters will bleed down overnight. The slow bleed variety with the high viscosity oils cold will cause the ticking to last longer. Doesn't bother me. It's a tall task for any hydraulic roller to operate in this environment.
That's why S&S started selling limiters. If you adjust the lifter 0.010" above the bottom, there's next to no bleed off. I run them in anything with adjustable push rods.
The tapping isn't a a concern to me where I mentioned above, rather a symptom.
Does S&S sell limiters for their new lifters?
I don't know, I've been using Larry's lifters.
Call your S&S rep, I'm sure he can tell you. If they didn't change inside dimensions, then yes they will fit.
Cut away of an S&S lifter shows the oil feed hole in the plunger at the top, so I doubt oil flow to pushrods would be effected throughout its travel.
This is their older lifter. Their new "Precision Tappets" changed the internal valving and have a flow metering disc at the bottom.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 17, 2020, 07:06:09 AM
This is their older lifter. Their new "Precision Tappets" changed the internal valving and have a flow metering disc at the bottom.
His image shows a metering disc.
[attach=0]
The new lifters have the disc on the bottom. Internal dimensions remain unchanged. AKA Crane design
Quote from: HD Street Performance on July 17, 2020, 07:23:31 AM
The new lifters have the disc on the bottom. Internal dimensions remain unchanged. AKA Crane design
How long since the new design was released?
If new design has a metering disc at the bottom, do you mean the check ball end and is there still a metering disc at the top or is it free flow now?
Got a cut away or pictures of the new design to share.
I have nothing, S&S tech told me the details. Sorry.
Here's an update.
Re-set lifters at .110" and seems to quiet things down, however still have the 2600-2800rpm rocker shaft knock. Not really concerned about that.
Didn't think it would make any difference from .130" to .110" but it did.
All I can hear is the top end valve train noises, a constant light clatter like a sewing machine if you know what I mean.
Listening from the air filter side cannot hear a thing, lifters are dead quiet.
From the primary side the valve train can be heard.
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 14, 2020, 08:02:15 AM
I don't know, I've been using Larry's lifters.
Call your S&S rep, I'm sure he can tell you. If they didn't change inside dimensions, then yes they will fit.
I pretty sure the new lifters from SS , are just one lifter now and no limiters . . I going with the lifters that Larry sells also with limiters . I was going to set them with a half turn of clearance . Is that ok thanks
I'd follow Larry's recommendations as he lays out here.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,107431.0.html
Jim, Larry's adjustment description is exactly how we discussed it before. :wink:
See attachment. Someone posted this some time ago and I have kept it around for reference.