HarleyTechTalk

Regret having ever sold my 77 Sportster.  Alas I now see one for sale. 
Hasn't run since 2004.
Numbers match.
Except for a few tabs frame is untouched.
Claims good compression.
Complete but needs work.
Current bid is under 1500.
About 90 minutes from my house.

Were I to get it I'd do a complete rebuild.  Nothing radical for the engine but some performance improvement.  My Pet preferences would be and SU Carb, belt primary and both an electric and kicker.  Would like to go with a Springer on the front.  Would also like a horseshoe oil tank.  Nothing overly radical but certainly not stock.  Modest bling while being a looker.  Retirement project bike for sure.  Good thing I'm retired. 


Thoughts?

I have three rules about modifications.
1 - Must not make it more difficult to ride (less safe).
2 - Must not make the bike heavier.
3 - Must not make the bike harder to work on.

Under $1500 is worth taking a chance on it, especially if you're pining for another. Even if it's a total loss, it's not a huge amount. If it runs and can be ridden with little work to get it on the road, bonus!

Agree, if it is not all rusty and bent up and more or less complete, $1500 is a reasonable price.

Regarding belt primary, why? Also, I'm sure it can be done and there's probably dudes that have, but Sporty shares primary oil with trans, with shifter running through both. You gonna seal the primary somehow, or run the belt in oil?

-JW

A belt primary violates my rules.....

Me too. I didn't very much enjoy pushing the one I had that broke the belt. Now, chains all around!

-JW

The biggest problem if you intend to ride the bike much at all is quality aftermarket bling and parts for an old bike. It's just not in demand, so few manufacturers sell parts for them. 

Owning and riding an Ironhead is a commitment. So I don't.

I can't speak about ALL old bikes, but as far as Ironheads are concerned, not a problem at all with getting the wear parts (pistons, rings, valves, gaskets, seals, bearings, brake pads, chains, clutches, etc, etc) and you can ride as much as you want to. Bling is different story, but I'm not really into bling so can't say much on that. In fact, I'm not quite sure what is meant by that. "Live to Ride, Ride to Live" stick'ems are universal fit, aren't they?

-JW

Quote from: JW113 on August 02, 2021, 09:21:11 AM
I can't speak about ALL old bikes, but as far as Ironheads are concerned, not a problem at all with getting the wear parts (pistons, rings, valves, gaskets, seals, bearings, brake pads, chains, clutches, etc, etc) and you can ride as much as you want to. Bling is different story, but I'm not really into bling so can't say much on that. In fact, I'm not quite sure what is meant by that. "Live to Ride, Ride to Live" stick'ems are universal fit, aren't they?

-JW

Unfortunately, they are.

Well, I did not get it.  To be honest I forgot to go back to the auction before it closed.  And I simply have too many other irons in the fire.  Would have been fun but........

As to the various questions, I had very good luck with a belt primary in my last Sportster.  It was the Phase III brand and yes, it ran in the primary oil.  Or one could convert to a dry clutch and run the primary dry.  I kept it wet and it was fine.  The amount of vibration it got rid of was astounding.  I could actually use my mirrors at 70 mph.

As for any bling, probably the only thing I can see having trouble with is a set of after market rear fender rails that curve with the fender.  I had a set on my last one and always liked the look.  Anything else that's not available I'll wager can be fabricated.

Quote from: Burnout on July 31, 2021, 03:39:22 PM
I have three rules about modifications.
1 - Must not make it more difficult to ride (less safe).
2 - Must not make the bike heavier.
3 - Must not make the bike harder to work on.

Well to each their own but how does a belt primary make the bike more difficult to ride, heavier or harder to work on?

A belt primary doesn't change the ride;
Actually removes several pounds of chain from the bike;
And is no harder to work on than a chain and in fact easier since tension adjustments becomes a moot point.

If a belt primary was all the sweetness and light you communicate, all the Harleys in the last 50 years would have one.

You'd think that they would use it on the new models to help meet the EPA noise rules, nope still a chain.

And if it did much for Vibes they would be all over it for the Yuppie Credit Card Bikers.

A belt primary was used OEM on a Sturgis model maybe two years, we know how that worked out.

Did you use synthetic oil on your belt?   

I gots a question. The shovelheads with belt primary had a provision to adjust the tension by means of slotted holes in the inner primary at the engine case bolts. The belt that was on my shovelhead when I bought it was aftermarket, and did not have this. When my belt broke, I bought a replacement, it so tight I could not get it on. I found they made a "slightly bigger" version called a Bullseye, I bought that, and it was so tight after I finally got it on, it caused the transmission mainshaft seal to leak. I replaced it all with a chain, and could not be happier.

Oh yeah, the question: how do you adjust the belt tension on a Sporty, which is unit construction engine/trans case?

Belts.... to each, their own. What ever floats your boat I say.

-JW

I've never seen an OEM adjustable primary.
I'm thinkin someone slotted them holes to try and fix something.
Now a tin primary would have a jack screw on the trans mount for chain tension.
Some of the belts had an adjustable roller in place of the chain adjuster, but that does not work well on a belt.

From my European pal Mullie, this is what I know:

http://www.mulliemotors.com/indexmotors.php?page=partsdiff

Also, any pic of p/n 60497-80B that I have seen does indeed have slotted holes in the front. But what do I know? Never seen one in person. Just a internet educated fool. Like Turbo says.


But in fact, if you think about it, how could they not? If mine had them, could have actually installed a new belt. But kind of glad I couldn't, happier without.

[attach=0]

-JW

Quote from: JW113 on August 03, 2021, 07:49:06 PM
From my European pal Mullie, this is what I know:

http://www.mulliemotors.com/indexmotors.php?page=partsdiff

Also, any pic of p/n 60497-80B that I have seen does indeed have slotted holes in the front. But what do I know? Never seen one in person. Just a internet educated fool. Like Turbo says.


But in fact, if you think about it, how could they not? If mine had them, could have actually installed a new belt. But kind of glad I couldn't, happier without.

[attach=0,msg1392125]

-JW

I believe those holes were slotted by hand, they don't look like they were machined. Irrelevant of that, the cover cannot slide fore or aft at that point as it is centered on the motor lip that forms the oring seat.

Quote from: Burnout on August 04, 2021, 03:58:21 PM

Quote from: JW113 on August 03, 2021, 07:49:06 PM
From my European pal Mullie, this is what I know:

http://www.mulliemotors.com/indexmotors.php?page=partsdiff

Also, any pic of p/n 60497-80B that I have seen does indeed have slotted holes in the front. But what do I know? Never seen one in person. Just a internet educated fool. Like Turbo says.


But in fact, if you think about it, how could they not? If mine had them, could have actually installed a new belt. But kind of glad I couldn't, happier without.

[attach=0,msg1392125]

-JW

I believe those holes were slotted by hand, they don't look like they were machined. Irrelevant of that, the cover cannot slide fore or aft at that point as it is centered on the motor lip that forms the oring seat.

But... a belt primary has no O-ring...

-JW

FXB models use the same 11125 o-ring on the inner primary to case. Keeps the water and dirt out of the primary.

So I was thinking, if I am correct about this, then there MUST be something in the service manual about it.

I would love to take a picture and post it here, but the last time I did such a thing, I got a scolding and told not to post copyrighted material anymore. So, I'll "paraphrase".


The source: Harley-Davidson Service Manual, FL/FX Models 1200/13400cc 4-Speed, 1978-1/2 to 1984
HD p/n 99482-84

Section 6, page 6-11

Adjustment (Late 1980 and Later)

Belt tension is set at the factory and should be checked every 10,000 miles. The belt must be adjusted if tension measured exceeds 1 in., with 10 lbs. of force applied at the mid-point of the belt's bottom strand.

1. Remove the primary cover and gasket.

2. See Figure 6-11. Cut and remove safety wire, loosen four 5/16 in. dia. bolts securing primary case to crankcase.

3. Loosen four nuts securing transmission to transmission mounting plate and bolt securing transmission to frame tab.

4. See Figure 6-12. Loosen two nuts securing starter motor.

5. See Figure 6-13. Carefully insert a screwdriver, or similar tool through hole in housing. Pry against crankcase to increase tension on belt.

And blah blah blah blah until you've adjust it, and then tighten all the bolts.

In summary, the inner primary has slotted holes at the case to primary housing. The motor stays bolted to the frame. You loosen the case to primary bolts, loosen the trans to plate bolts, and slide the transmission and primary around to get the belt adjusted correctly.

So.... believe me now? If not, check it out yourself.


-JW

But wait, there's more...

In the pic I posted, you can see all four case to primary bolts are ovals. Also, you can see the belt adjustment hole referenced above. And looking closer, I can see the bore in the primary is machined to open it up into an oval as well so the primary can move forward/backward on the left side motor snout. The O-ring groove appears to be machined away on the rear edge of the hole.

[attach=0]

-JW

I believe I'll have an adult beverage. I've never seen one of those slotted primary's!      

I wonder what kind of high grade they were smoking when they came up with that idea?

Did they remind you to adjust the rear belt after adjusting the front belt?

The MoCo never ceases to amaze me, in one way or another.

Thank you for the trivia lesson, if I owned a manual for that model....

I watched Doug piece one of those together over a period of a few years. I was more looking at the cush-drive rubber bits than the inner cover.

And this may be one of the reasons they discontinued belt primary. Having to stock two different versions of parts, and more labor at the factory to adjust it than a simple chain tensioner.

-JW

Last I knew, The rubber cushion pieces are no longer available for the front pulley.
Finding good parts is getting really tough if you are shooting for a points restoration.