Here's another what if question...is it possible to do a 110 that goes 130/130 and still crosses 100 Tq at 2000 without having the CR up around 11:1?
seems like a tall order
The Zippers extreme muscle kit is close.
won't cross 100tq @ 2000 rpm and uses a .687 lift cam with 1.725 rockers opening the valve to .730
not your everyday touring rig...and likely lower end would need to be built to handle 150hp
what's the intended use?
I was thinking if you wanted torque that early that maybe you wanted a touring / daily driver?
:pop:
This is kinda like what it takes.
http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=91480.0 (http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=91480.0)
Just did a 110 drop on kit . IT made 128/128 and made 110 tq at 2100 GMR CNC GMR 600 S&S kit 10.8 Rush wrath pipe with 2.25 baffle to drive the tq up. HP would have been more with the 2.5 but tq lower would have been less . Now could you get WAY crazy and build larger power numbers sure . But if you can get off a goal that mean not much other than bragging rights you could have a very nice running bike without it being a bar hopper type build .
:agree: and that's a nice outcome
I have posted several of these up My FB page has all of them as its just easier to post them there. But Pipe will be crucial is having the tq curve you want . Forget about " the number" and enjoy the power of a kit that works.. Or just run it on a " lucky dyno " thats always good for a nice sheet :hyst:
Quote from: kd on October 03, 2017, 02:18:08 PM
This is kinda like what it takes.
http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=91480.0 (http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=91480.0)
Just under 13:1 CR. :dgust:
Quote from: sfmichael on October 03, 2017, 01:25:05 PM
won't cross 100tq @ 2000 rpm and uses a .687 lift cam with 1.725 rockers opening the valve to .730
not your everyday touring rig...and likely lower end would need to be built to handle 150hp
what's the intended use?
I was thinking if you wanted torque that early that maybe you wanted a touring / daily driver?
:pop:
Yup, daily driver and touring but a Rushmore Trike. It really takes big 2 wheel numbers to really a trike good power.
And yes Steve I knew you were close. GMR
Not nasty, and not 110. But close...
SE 113 kit, 10.5 static pistons, MVA heads, Blackwidow 62 cam, and 55 TB. Add in a Supertrapp pipe (dyna) and a good tune.
130/131 and very docile. Not nasty, but real fast in a light dyna.
Not hard.
Ported stock heads, CVO 110 heads, at 11:1 with a good pipe and tune and a 58mm tb
Its a trike
130/130 is one thing on 1 wheel something else with a trike
exhaust system is different
Quote from: HD Street Performance on October 03, 2017, 06:34:07 PM
Not hard.
Ported stock heads, CVO 110 heads, at 11:1 with a good pipe and tune and a 58mm tb
"goes 130/130 and still crosses 100 Tq at 2000
without having the CR up around 11:1?"
what cam are you plugging in there that meets all his criteria? :pop:
A 130/130 bike build will be in the 125-130tq/105-110hp area on a trike.
Also the curve will move to the right from what I have seen on my dyno, a bike build that usually hits 100tq at 2000 will cross 100tq at roughly 2500 on the three wheeled counterpart.
Rotational mass is so much greater and as John pointed out the exhaust is different as well. I tuned a trike last year that had a proven good slip on muffler for a bike, but on the trike exhaust they were sub par, I swapped out the mufflers and moved the curve back to the left 500 rpm, while keeping the peak numbers the same.
Like I said dont worry about the numbers .. 110 drop on kit with a small cam will make it a very nice machine without much fuss
LOL, well Steve, already did that. 110 running a CR570 with a little head work, CR at 10:1.
Runs well, but looking for a little more.
Probably should have done 110.
I think we will try an SE585 next and if that doesn't do it maybe Tman600.
Not really ready to pump up the CR much.
http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=30644.msg310167#msg310167 (http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=30644.msg310167#msg310167)
Local Indy uses Zippers 577 quite a bit with good results... a bit more duration than any cam I'm looking for (or think I'm looking for) :nix:, but you can't refute the results.
Quote from: NHBAGGER on October 05, 2017, 04:28:16 PM
LOL, well Steve, already did that. 110 running a CR570 with a little head work, CR at 10:1.
Runs well, but looking for a little more.
Probably should have done 110.
I think we will try an SE585 next and if that doesn't do it maybe Tman600.
Not really ready to pump up the CR much.
You are barking up the wrong cam tree
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on October 03, 2017, 02:49:28 PM
I have posted several of these up My FB page has all of them as its just easier to post them there. But Pipe will be crucial is having the tq curve you want . Forget about " the number" and enjoy the power of a kit that works.. Or just run it on a " lucky dyno " thats always good for a nice sheet :hyst:
Priceless Steve... :up: :up:
Quote from: TorQuePimp on October 07, 2017, 10:28:33 PM
Quote from: NHBAGGER on October 05, 2017, 04:28:16 PM
LOL, well Steve, already did that. 110 running a CR570 with a little head work, CR at 10:1.
Runs well, but looking for a little more.
Probably should have done 110.
I think we will try an SE585 next and if that doesn't do it maybe Tman600.
Not really ready to pump up the CR much.
You are barking up the wrong cam tree
Okay, ready to listen, I have seen decent results from both of these?
Quote from: NHBAGGER on October 05, 2017, 04:28:16 PM
LOL, well Steve, already did that. 110 running a CR570 with a little head work, CR at 10:1.
Runs well, but looking for a little more.
Probably should have done 110.
I think we will try an SE585 next and if that doesn't do it maybe Tman600.
Not really ready to pump up the CR much.
I'm a little confused...you already have a 110 or you are considering one?
Sorry, just noticed that myself. Meant to say I probably should have gone 117.
I'm doing a 110 with Mackie 598s, HPI 58mm and a Dragula. Heads/pistons will have this motor at roughly 10.8ish. I'll keep you posted as to the results but I expect HP to meet your goal and we will see about tq. Current 107 with different heads but same otherwise put down a best of 128/124. TQ started at 110# and never dropped below that out to 6200
Quote from: NHBAGGER on October 09, 2017, 07:21:23 AM
Quote from: TorQuePimp on October 07, 2017, 10:28:33 PM
Quote from: NHBAGGER on October 05, 2017, 04:28:16 PM
LOL, well Steve, already did that. 110 running a CR570 with a little head work, CR at 10:1.
Runs well, but looking for a little more.
Probably should have done 110.
I think we will try an SE585 next and if that doesn't do it maybe Tman600.
Not really ready to pump up the CR much.
You are barking up the wrong cam tree
Okay, ready to listen, I have seen decent results from both of these?
Neither of those cams will get you anywhere near your own stated goal
and I cannot go too deep into what i think you should do here
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on October 03, 2017, 02:49:28 PM
I have posted several of these up My FB page has all of them as its just easier to post them there. But Pipe will be crucial is having the tq curve you want . Forget about " the number" and enjoy the power of a kit that works.. Or just run it on a " lucky dyno " thats always good for a nice sheet :hyst:
:hyst: Now, THAT'S funny!
Update..trike got the 110 with SE585s, SE58 and headwork for a 10:1 CR. Went 112/106 on the Dyno.
This past winter did a 117 with the same components except heads reworked to about 10.2:1. Based on the 110 results, guessing it would probably do about 120/115 if dyno'd.
Good runner but still not sure about the cam choice.
Looked at other 117 runs and looks like other choices are S&S570, GMR600, Tman 590 or 625, but some of these seem to like more compression.
Thoughts?
How about the v-thunder 3103
Got one going together now with our Pro heads but the wild card I am afraid of is the preexisting condition, the pipe. Bassani road rage 2 into 1, huge baffle only half way in the can. Very little experience with this pipe myself.
Quote from: harpwrench on August 22, 2020, 07:07:09 AM
How about the v-thunder 3103
[/quotes]
Can't find many Dyno runs for these cams.
Just helped with a 117" build at 10.25:1 with hillside heads (purshased for a steal off ebay), 58mm Tb, rush wrath with the 2.5" baffle and an s&s 570. It went 131/127 (tuned on 89 octane) and the pull started at 90tq at 1750rpm... pulls hard to about 5700... I'll try and get the sheet for you. It's a perfect torque build and a blast to ride!'
Other cams mulled over were tts-150, cr575 and Andrews 54.
In a trike I might look cr575
Nice run, but 130/121 would probably only get me 125/115 which is about +5 tq. May not be enough bang for the buck.
May need a two where run that is more like 130/125 for me to get 125/120.
1.2 hp / cu in. , possible, expensive. 1.1 hp / cu in at 117 easier and will have better manners. Costs will be close to the same.
On a trike I wouldn't think horsepower would be the goal, but rather early, large torque.
Quote from: Hossamania on August 23, 2020, 04:55:20 PM
On a trike I wouldn't think horsepower would be the goal, but rather early, large torque.
Very true, but I have found you still need a good mix.
Go bigger with a lower state of tune and get it all. Less compression, less heat, longer life.
Bigger is not an option. Will need to keep looking for a new set of cams that will give me 5/5 more than the SE585s.
TTS-150 will be in my 117 rebuild. I assume that this sheet has stock 110 heads as they don't mention head work. So good head work will only help.
[attach=0]
Quote from: Ohio HD on August 23, 2020, 07:30:58 PM
TTS-150 will be in my 117 rebuild. I assume that this sheet has stock 110 heads as they don't mention head work. So good head work will only help.
Can't help but wonder how that would be for a nice touring rig... :chop:
T-Man 660PS-2 at 10.6 in a 110" with a good head/intake/pipe. Large, broad, power.
Wood 408-6 is a close second....10.6 cr.
Our Facebook has the dyno info, on the use of the Wood cam.
Quote from: Tail Ridr on August 24, 2020, 02:25:09 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on August 23, 2020, 07:30:58 PM
TTS-150 will be in my 117 rebuild. I assume that this sheet has stock 110 heads as they don't mention head work. So good head work will only help.
Can't help but wonder how that would be for a nice touring rig... :chop:
That's where they shine, heavy bikes.
Looking at dyno graphs on the Internet to choose cams is not a good way to go about it. What heads are on this, ported 103 or 110, liquid cooled? Who did em? Specs? Exhaust- are you still using the small fullsac C pipe with small cores? Smashed crossover? What throttle body? (Edit- ok I see SE58) How did you get it down to 10.2 with a 117 if using 103 wet heads? How are you tuning it since it hasn't been on a dyno with the 117?
Well said and I agree
Quote from: Ohio HD on August 23, 2020, 07:30:58 PM
TTS-150 will be in my 117 rebuild. I assume that this sheet has stock 110 heads as they don't mention head work. So good head work will only help.
[attach=0,msg1359205]
Do you think 130hp potential is there with this cam in a 117?
I had recommended it for the 117" I posted above. Looks like the graph you posted is by the same guy that tuned the 117" I helped with and the torque is coming on sooner with the 150, and at 9.9:1 no less.
Cams don't work autonomously. The pipe and heads have a major influence on the outcome. And that said if the throttle body is too small then there is another constraint to deal with. The system, the sum of the parts, not good or bad cam
Quote from: 838 on August 24, 2020, 10:00:47 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on August 23, 2020, 07:30:58 PM
TTS-150 will be in my 117 rebuild. I assume that this sheet has stock 110 heads as they don't mention head work. So good head work will only help.
[attach=0,msg1359205]
Do you think 130hp potential is there with this cam in a 117?
I had recommended it for the 117" I posted above. Looks like the graph you posted is by the same guy that tuned the 117" I helped with and the torque is coming on sooner with the 150, and at 9.9:1 no less.
With good head work, you can get close. However the cams aren't designed for upper power. Low and more mid, and easy on the valve train.
I have a sheet from a 113" with TTS-150's and Larry's heads that makes 132TQ 124HP. I can't post it as it was given to me as 3rd hand. So it's possible with a 117" to get there. That would probably be the limit.
We did a 107 locally with the tts150 and it made 118/126. Fatcat and my Street Pro heads. Stock throttle body. High early torque.
Quote from: NHBagger on August 23, 2020, 07:22:48 PM
Bigger is not an option. Will need to keep looking for a new set of cams that will give me 5/5 more than the SE585s.
Are you trying to get 130 hp at the wheel(s)? If so you'll need to be closer to 10.8-11.25:1. My personal sport touring 117" is at 11:1 140/136.
You will also need the ancillary components to yield these results.
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on August 24, 2020, 03:28:46 AM
T-Man 660PS-2 at 10.6 in a 110" with a good head/intake/pipe. Large, broad, power.
Wood 408-6 is a close second....10.6 cr.
Our Facebook has the dyno info, on the use of the Wood cam.
I'd really like to see this 660 in a big cube motor. Have you done a 117-124 with this?
I have done what the OP wants with a cyclerama cam my $499 oem heads 1.9 / 1.575 valves at 11.2:1. 110 hd bolt on kit made 130/134.
Quote from: 838 on August 24, 2020, 01:47:33 PM
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on August 24, 2020, 03:28:46 AM
T-Man 660PS-2 at 10.6 in a 110" with a good head/intake/pipe. Large, broad, power.
Wood 408-6 is a close second....10.6 cr.
Our Facebook has the dyno info, on the use of the Wood cam.
I'd really like to see this 660 in a big cube motor. Have you done a 117-124 with this?
Here's a Tman 660SM in a 120. I believe the ramps were changed but the cam is basically the same.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,99409.msg1162057.html#msg1162057
Quote from: kd on August 24, 2020, 03:07:36 PM
Quote from: 838 on August 24, 2020, 01:47:33 PM
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on August 24, 2020, 03:28:46 AM
T-Man 660PS-2 at 10.6 in a 110" with a good head/intake/pipe. Large, broad, power.
Wood 408-6 is a close second....10.6 cr.
Our Facebook has the dyno info, on the use of the Wood cam.
I'd really like to see this 660 in a big cube motor. Have you done a 117-124 with this?
Here's a Tman 660SM in a 120. I believe the ramps were changed but the cam is basically the same.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,99409.msg1162057.html#msg1162057
I ran a 660 in my old SG 120r.
The numbers were nothing like that BUT it wAs a torque monster! A really enjoyable ride!
Quote from: HD Street Performance on August 24, 2020, 12:03:03 PM
We did a 107 locally with the tts150 and it made 118/126. Fatcat and my Street Pro heads. Stock throttle body. High early torque.
Would be a pleasure to see the results of that build :bike:
Quote from: 838 on August 24, 2020, 01:47:33 PM
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on August 24, 2020, 03:28:46 AM
T-Man 660PS-2 at 10.6 in a 110" with a good head/intake/pipe. Large, broad, power.
Wood 408-6 is a close second....10.6 cr.
Our Facebook has the dyno info, on the use of the Wood cam.
I'd really like to see this 660 in a big cube motor. Have you done a 117-124 with this?
2, 110's, 1, 117", and currently finishing a 113", and a 131", with those cams.
All were home runs.
I was advised not to do high compression builds in a trike.
.
We used to do it pretty regularly. Woods 9B always produced. There was one in the archives somewhere I did went 130hp/136tq sae. If it's in a trike though I wouldn't be shooting for numbers, I'd be focused on the torque curve.
Quote from: aharp on August 27, 2020, 02:34:49 AM
We used to do it pretty regularly. Woods 9B always produced. There was one in the archives somewhere I did went 130hp/136tq sae. If it's in a trike though I wouldn't be shooting for numbers, I'd be focused on the torque curve.
:up:
Oh, I get it. Not looking for a cam that comes on late. Riding 2 up it's like 1500# going down the road. Tq should be 100 early and carry out a ways. Peak of 125 should cut down on the shifting to keep that mass moving.
Just because I'm on 3 doesn't mean I don't still like good throttle response.
Everything you allude to just screams 124........ :potstir:
How often are you honestly hitting 6k rpm two up on a trike??? You can get big torque out of a 117" (bigger out of a 124"). If your not hitting 6k then go for a torque cam, head work to match, best pipe you can get and a solid tune. Talk to a head porter and a dyno tuner, they'll steer you right!!!
I'd pick a cam with an intake close to get your ccp down to around 190, and an exhaust opening around 52 with enough duration to get rid of the exhaust and heat. A 117 should have more than enough power to feel really good without putting up with pinging and hot legs
Agree with above but it will take more compression to hit the numbers stated at 110". At 117 this is a happy motor. And lobe centers can be juggled to keep the overlap under control.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on August 27, 2020, 12:23:56 PM
Agree with above but it will take more compression to hit the numbers stated at 110". At 117 this is a happy motor. And lobe centers can be juggled to keep the overlap under control.
Bike is a 117" now at 10.2:1 (don't know if it's true 10.2 or not) op has not mentioned which type of heads or if they've been professionally ported...
Don, I'm curious to see how you would approach a build of this nature in a 117-124" ?
A 117" with OEM ported heads works real well, even at less than nose bleed compression, if you are not looking for that last bit of juice. Just like Harpwrench outlined. I like the 117 better than the 124 as they will take more abuse and last longer in my experience. Nothing wrong with a bigger bore 117" also up to 4.2". After that I would start with S&S parts and build up a custom big motor and go for it. The cost gets exponentially more. My best ring seal and bore consistency has been with ductile sleeved cylinders.
Quote from: harpwrench on August 24, 2020, 07:02:24 AM
Looking at dyno graphs on the Internet to choose cams is not a good way to go about it. What heads are on this, ported 103 or 110, liquid cooled? Who did em? Specs? Exhaust- are you still using the small fullsac C pipe with small cores? Smashed crossover? What throttle body? (Edit- ok I see SE58) How did you get it down to 10.2 with a 117 if using 103 wet heads? How are you tuning it since it hasn't been on a dyno with the 117?
Took me a while to gather all the info.
Ported 103 wetheads. DVR did them originally for the 110 version. R&R redid them for the 117 with cr at 10.5 not 10.2 as originally told.
Fulsac CX with 1-3/4 baffles. Steve says I need to go to the DX with 2" baffles.
PV with TT, shop does not have a trike Dyno.
Definitely 2 - 2 1/4
If it were mine I'd go with an S&S HP103, at 10.5 I come up with 191 ccp. I would target that because of the weight and aero drag, and likelihood of having to put 87 octane into it once in awhile. Plus the road tuning. This is just what I'd do, good luck :beer:
TR580 anyone?
838 I agree. It doesn't have that bite taken out of the TQ curve at 2500-3000 like the 590 PS2. 10.8:1 would be too much, need thicker head gaskets to be in range.
Quote from: C-Cat on September 03, 2020, 05:07:43 PM
838 I agree. It doesn't have that bite taken out of the TQ curve at 2500-3000 like the 590 PS2. 10.8:1 would be too much, need thicker head gaskets to be in range.
I just finished a 117 and we were hoping to use the 580 at 10.5:1. But at 10.25:1 the owner selected the s&s570 (it's in the graph I posted above... ) it rips, but I was thinking that 580 would do real well. We were also considering the tts-150 but without knowing the specs and with large valved stock heads I didn't want to mess with potential valve to valve clearance issues. At 10.5:1 for the OP in a trike the 580 seems good without having to go into the +.600" lift range.