Somebody has to get this rolling. Dealers speak up. Kit 92500078 on the H-D dealers website. I tried to copy it be here but cannot.
SE8-517 cam
4.310 jugs n slugs
Extreme ported CNC heads with bigger valves.
Post the Link?
Wonder if it's made the same way as the TC 110" drop on cylinders. Wonder if they'll let you buy the cyl/piston separate.
Just finished an S&S 128" kit Monday, with our HMM Heads.
136 hp/157 ft/lbs.
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on January 15, 2020, 04:25:31 AM
Just finished an S&S 128" kit Monday, with our HMM Heads.
136 hp/157 ft/lbs.
Nice numbers! That beats the advertised rear wheel torque of the new 131 crate engine from the factory. They claim 131 rear wheel torque. Only info available so far is 107 to 128 kits and 114/117 to 131 kits , also a 131 crate engine. Looks like it comes with 64mm TB catalyst header 517 cam pistons and cylinders, heads with bigger valves. The pistons and cylinders have separate part numbers so should be available separately. That's all the info I can find. Hope that helps.
Harleys numbers are with the SE legal tuner, and cats, to be 50 state legal. IMO, it's about time...
Quote from: rigidthumper on January 15, 2020, 08:54:14 AM
Harleys numbers are with the SE legal tuner, and cats, to be 50 state legal. IMO, it's about time...
2 year warranty as well
Hiilside Was that tuned with PV or DL or something else.
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on January 15, 2020, 04:25:31 AM
Just finished an S&S 128" kit Monday, with our HMM Heads.
136 hp/157 ft/lbs.
Good for you. What does it have to do with the new SE 128" kit? :down:
https://i.redd.it/9quh90t9nva41.jpg
Wonder what the bore stroke combo is. If this sucker comes with a warranty, it may be a no brainer.
Quote from: Nastytls on January 15, 2020, 01:34:49 PM
https://i.redd.it/9quh90t9nva41.jpg
Wonder what the bore stroke combo is. If this sucker comes with a warranty, it may be a no brainer.
Should be 4.310 x 4.50.
You can do what you want to it 2 years later after the warranty is gone. In the mean time you'll have a damn snappy decker (or Softial :teeth: ) and something to study and save for. Win-Win
Anyone seen one of these?
Quote from: Cvosjoe on January 15, 2020, 03:04:14 PM
Quote from: Nastytls on January 15, 2020, 01:34:49 PM
https://i.redd.it/9quh90t9nva41.jpg
Wonder what the bore stroke combo is. If this sucker comes with a warranty, it may be a no brainer.
Should be 4.310 x 4.50.
Was hoping for 4.375 sq. Who knows, this may be capable of 4.5 Sq without a case bore. :SM:
Heads are available separately, as well as the pistons and cylinders separately too. Heads have 1mm bigger valves. 2 year warranty is for the crate 131 if installed within 60 days of new bike purchase or 1 year warranty if bought over the counter.
Quote from: Nastytls on January 15, 2020, 04:59:34 PM
Quote from: Cvosjoe on January 15, 2020, 03:04:14 PM
Quote from: Nastytls on January 15, 2020, 01:34:49 PM
https://i.redd.it/9quh90t9nva41.jpg
Wonder what the bore stroke combo is. If this sucker comes with a warranty, it may be a no brainer.
Should be 4.310 x 4.50.
Was hoping for 4.375 sq. Who knows, this may be capable of 4.5 Sq without a case bore. :SM:
I guess it's hip to be square? :hyst:
4.310 x 4.375 isn't much undersquare put with pretty good big valve for factory heads and decent rod to stroke ratios should make for good potential to spin and make horsepower for a V-twin. And naturally boat loads of low end torque to go with it. woot :chop:
Quote from: ziggy24 on January 16, 2020, 04:41:15 AM
Quote from: Princess Butt on January 15, 2020, 04:53:37 PM
Anyone seen one of these?
6 grand for that gem!
Yep & they stamp it with your existing vin, so have to return to HD existing cases !!
so no value in selling on stock motor
:down: :down:
:agree: Can it be purchased outright and swapped over with an MSO to carry like many do now?
Cant find anything that says you have to send in or destroy your old left case? :scratch:
I bought a Harley 120R crate engine that had it's own ID number. No trade required.
Quote from: kd on January 15, 2020, 03:11:59 PM
You can do what you want to it 2 years later after the warranty is gone. In the mean time you'll have a damn snappy decker (or Softial :teeth: ) and something to study and save for. Win-Win
Will it outdo a 143 TC? Inquiring minds want to know. :bike:
Quote from: rigidthumper on January 15, 2020, 08:54:14 AM
Harleys numbers are with the SE legal tuner, and cats, to be 50 state legal. IMO, it's about time...
keep the warranty on your $20K+ bike and still get great power :up:
True that but just get the kit, 3K dollars VS 6K and you use your other good parts. I think the install must be done at delivery, but could be wrong.
I think so. The option is to but the engine, ride it with the warranty for 2 years and then hop it up after that. I don't think it's wise to buy an M* and kill the warranty before you know it's OK. Too many still having problems. If it's true that they still want the cases an after market set of cases like S&S would put it back together and you have a spare engine to use or sell. At least that would have some value.
Quote from: JMHD on January 18, 2020, 10:14:02 AM
Cant find anything that says you have to send in or destroy your old left case? :scratch:
No other confirmation on this yet, but it was Fuel Moto posted this (another forum) after trying to order a 131 crate motor through a dealership & giving the vin from their 2020 RGS.
No brainer to just get the 131 Kit, or is there something special with the 131 crate bottom end?
I could see them wanting the case for reusing the numbers. They don't want to have 2 engines floating around with the same ID. I'm wondering about an outright purchase. Can the engine be bought outright?
Quote from: kd on January 18, 2020, 05:52:04 PM
I could see them wanting the case for reusing the numbers. They don't want to have 2 engines floating around with the same ID. I'm wondering about an outright purchase. Can the engine be bought outright?
I guess no to outright, FM tried that, then got asked for a vin
lots of Dealership guys here, need someone else to give it a try
The 120R is available outright purchase but no warranty even if installed by a dealer (if they will now that the EPA debacle has peaked. Now the 120ST is a warranty engine that was offered for the twin cam. Was it available to purchase outright without a case return?
Quote from: kd on January 18, 2020, 06:13:00 PM
The 120R is available outright purchase but no warranty even if installed by a dealer (if they will now that the EPA debacle has peaked. Now the 120ST is a warranty engine that was offered for the twin cam. Was it available to purchase outright without a case return?
It does say they are vin restricted when you try to order, I wonder if this has something to do with that they are pending approval for epa compliance.
A mechanic at the dealership told me they don't have a tune for it yet
With all the issues plaguing the M8 $6k seems like a lot of coin to be a beta tester. JMHO
There is ..... apparently issues with what they have now, regarding ring seal & cylinder stability. I can't see going bigger
improving this. Unless they institute some serious QC. these things will need breather tubes like Kenworth stacks.
Quote from: Will-Run on January 19, 2020, 09:19:39 AM
There is ..... apparently issues with what they have now, regarding ring seal & cylinder stability. I can't see going bigger
improving this. Unless they institute some serious QC. these things will need breather tubes like Kenworth stacks.
Good. It's just no me that feels that way then. :up:
Ron
link to Screamin' Eagle catalog- https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/milwaukee-eight-engine-stage-iv-kit-114ci-or-117ci-to-131ci
link to Screamin' Eagle catalog that show cylinders, heads, pistons, cam, etc.- https://www.harley-davidson.com/shop/screamin-eagle
link to image w details of the 2020 Screamin' Eagle M8 131" and 128" engines- https://www.hdofdanbury.com/--xInventoryDetail?id=8380385
link to 2020 / 2020.5 Screamin' Eagle catelog- https://en.calameo.com/read/003129746fed672f1bbbb
Quote from: yobtaf103 on January 18, 2020, 06:07:19 PM
Quote from: kd on January 18, 2020, 05:52:04 PM
I could see them wanting the case for reusing the numbers. They don't want to have 2 engines floating around with the same ID. I'm wondering about an outright purchase. Can the engine be bought outright?
I guess no to outright, FM tried that, then got asked for a vin
lots of Dealership guys here, need someone else to give it a try
We own a 2020 Road Glide Special and ordered a 131 engine kit as well as a 131 crate engine. The engine order required our VIN. When the dealer submitted the engine order it was noted it required engine case return for our original engine as the new 131 engines are stamped with VIN matched serial numbers. Knowing what we do here the dealer immediately contacted us back to see if they should continue with the order, we passed and are now just getting the 131 kit. This is the same procedure for engine cases and their short block program, they do not want multiple engines with the same serial numbers.
Found out some more info today. If you want the 131 crate motor to have the 2 year warranty you need to supply a vin and have it installed at the dealer which requires case half to be returned or destroyed. If you want to buy the motor over the counter you can with no case half return required and only 1 year warranty supplied.
What are the specs on the 517 cam or are they not released yet? :pop:
Here is site with specs for all Harley M8 cams including the 517 new cam. It is 5 degrees advanced on the front intake and 2 on rear intake. Same lift and duration, just moved open close on intake
https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/1324050966417576137?locale=en_US
and that be -J06304 (https://serviceinfo.harley-davidson.com/sip/service/document/1324050966417576137)
Quote from: BUGLET on January 15, 2020, 09:53:29 AM
Hiilside Was that tuned with PV or DL or something else.
Direct Link/TechnoResearch.
Quote from: IronButt70 on January 18, 2020, 02:26:43 PM
Quote from: kd on January 15, 2020, 03:11:59 PM
You can do what you want to it 2 years later after the warranty is gone. In the mean time you'll have a damn snappy decker (or Softial :teeth: ) and something to study and save for. Win-Win
Will it outdo a 143 TC? Inquiring minds want to know. :bike:
Absolutely not... :smile:
Quote from: JMHD on January 21, 2020, 06:35:35 AM
Found out some more info today. If you want the 131 crate motor to have the 2 year warranty you need to supply a vin and have it installed at the dealer which requires case half to be returned or destroyed. If you want to buy the motor over the counter you can with no case half return required and only 1 year warranty supplied.
Another update- when you order the 131 crate motor the numbers will not match your old case numbers and you do not have to scrap your original left case . The reason for the vin wanted is that you have to order the oil cooler fan kit and the head pipe that goes with it as well for EPA.
We just received additional info back from our dealer on the SE 131 crate engine. You are able to purchase this as an engine with MSO over the counter WITHOUT surrendering your original engine or cases. It was communicated that the issues and confusion we had earlier on were caused upon release by the HD system originally requiring case return however that has since been rectified. Our SE 131 engine is now on order as well as another SE 131 complete kit.
Quote from: JMHD on January 22, 2020, 07:10:34 AM
Quote from: JMHD on January 21, 2020, 06:35:35 AM
Found out some more info today. If you want the 131 crate motor to have the 2 year warranty you need to supply a vin and have it installed at the dealer which requires case half to be returned or destroyed. If you want to buy the motor over the counter you can with no case half return required and only 1 year warranty supplied.
Another update- when you order the 131 crate motor the numbers will not match your old case numbers and you do not have to scrap your original left case . The reason for the vin wanted is that you have to order the oil cooler fan kit and the head pipe that goes with it as well for EPA.
So, does that mean this engine requires a special header? Similar to a TC w/ B2 heads??
No , it is a higher flowing catalyst head pipe so my guess is it needs to be sold with it to satisfy the Epa or warranty or both.
What do all the doubters and haters have to say now? Harley's DESTROYING the competition!
Quote from: hd06myway on January 25, 2020, 10:14:22 AM
What do all the doubters and haters have to say now? Harley's DESTROYING the competition!
Put the same money into the competition and see what you get. Durability is yet to be proven.
Ron
I wonder if it has the sumping feature like OEM does? :pop:
Quote from: hd06myway on January 25, 2020, 10:14:22 AM
What do all the doubters and haters have to say now? Harley's DESTROYING the competition!
Destroying who?
Still rides like a '50's farm truck. It takes more than HP to make a performance motorcycle.
Back in the 70's a friend of mine dropped a 440 Chrysler engine into a 1966 Chevy Pickup. It went like a raped ape, still rode and cornered like a '66 Chevy pickup. Pretty much what Harley is building today.
I will agree the Harley HP was lacking. A warmed up 103" TC was good for me HP wise. The M8 114", If they don't sump, is probably good enough HP wise for most of us.
Quote from: PoorUB on January 25, 2020, 12:46:55 PM
Quote from: hd06myway on January 25, 2020, 10:14:22 AM
What do all the doubters and haters have to say now? Harley's DESTROYING the competition!
Destroying who?
Vespa. :hyst:
Quote from: PoorUB on January 25, 2020, 12:46:55 PM
Quote from: hd06myway on January 25, 2020, 10:14:22 AM
What do all the doubters and haters have to say now? Harley's DESTROYING the competition!
Destroying who?
Still rides like a '50's farm truck. It takes more than HP to make a performance motorcycle.
Back in the 70's a friend of mine dropped a 440 Chrysler engine into a 1966 Chevy Pickup. It went like a raped ape, still rode and cornered like a '66 Chevy pickup. Pretty much what Harley is building today.
I will agree the Harley HP was lacking. A warmed up 103" TC was good for me HP wise. The M8 114", If they don't sump, is probably good enough HP wise for most of us.
Oh come on Poor a farm truck gimmie a break! You got a motor cycle peforming like a Mustang Cobra GT and your comparing it to a 50's farm truck whata you smokin?!
Quote from: hd06myway on January 26, 2020, 12:06:24 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on January 25, 2020, 12:46:55 PM
Quote from: hd06myway on January 25, 2020, 10:14:22 AM
What do all the doubters and haters have to say now? Harley's DESTROYING the competition!
Destroying who?
Still rides like a '50's farm truck. It takes more than HP to make a performance motorcycle.
Back in the 70's a friend of mine dropped a 440 Chrysler engine into a 1966 Chevy Pickup. It went like a raped ape, still rode and cornered like a '66 Chevy pickup. Pretty much what Harley is building today.
I will agree the Harley HP was lacking. A warmed up 103" TC was good for me HP wise. The M8 114", If they don't sump, is probably good enough HP wise for most of us.
Oh come on Poor a farm truck gimmie a break! You got a motor cycle peforming like a Mustang Cobra GT and your comparing it to a 50's farm truck whata you smokin?!
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Usv2xLE9qk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPMgyvmxPgI
Quote from: PoorUB on January 25, 2020, 12:46:55 PM
Quote from: hd06myway on January 25, 2020, 10:14:22 AM
What do all the doubters and haters have to say now? Harley's DESTROYING the competition!
Destroying who?
Still rides like a '50's farm truck. It takes more than HP to make a performance motorcycle.
Back in the 70's a friend of mine dropped a 440 Chrysler engine into a 1966 Chevy Pickup. It went like a raped ape, still rode and cornered like a '66 Chevy pickup. Pretty much what Harley is building today.
:hyst: Truth hurts for some. Don't think this will be destroying anything other than stock 107/114/117's and stock TS111" Indians. Maybe it gives the new Challanger a run for it's money. Time will tell.
While this is nice to see they're making this engine, it should be standard in a CVO and at the very least an option for "Specials" like the 114" is. Now that we know they can make this and have it be 49 state legal, they have no excuse other than a pure cash grab.
Quote from: kd on January 26, 2020, 06:06:09 AM
Quote from: hd06myway on January 26, 2020, 12:06:24 AM
Quote from: PoorUB on January 25, 2020, 12:46:55 PM
Quote from: hd06myway on January 25, 2020, 10:14:22 AM
What do all the doubters and haters have to say now? Harley's DESTROYING the competition!
Destroying who?
Still rides like a '50's farm truck. It takes more than HP to make a performance motorcycle.
Back in the 70's a friend of mine dropped a 440 Chrysler engine into a 1966 Chevy Pickup. It went like a raped ape, still rode and cornered like a '66 Chevy pickup. Pretty much what Harley is building today.
I will agree the Harley HP was lacking. A warmed up 103" TC was good for me HP wise. The M8 114", If they don't sump, is probably good enough HP wise for most of us.
Oh come on Poor a farm truck gimmie a break! You got a motor cycle peforming like a Mustang Cobra GT and your comparing it to a 50's farm truck whata you smokin?!
ttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Usv2xLE9qk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPMgyvmxPgI
:smileo: :teeth:
Nice to see the haters and doubters come out into the light ... why dontcha all go ride somethin' else ..
Quote from: hd06myway on January 26, 2020, 07:31:14 AM
Nice to see the haters and doubters come out into the light ... why dontcha all go ride somethin' else ..
So the truth = haters and doubters? Got it.
Quote from: hd06myway on January 26, 2020, 12:06:24 AMOh come on Poor a farm truck gimmie a break! You got a motor cycle peforming like a Mustang Cobra GT and your comparing it to a 50's farm truck whata you smokin?!
Seriously?? You are comparing a heavy, fat Harley with practically no suspension to a Mustang Cobra just because you can drop 150 HP into it? Have you ridden any other motorcycle that actually has decent suspension and a decent engine??
You can drop 400 HP into a 1964 Mustang, it doesn't make it a performance vehicle. It can go fast in a straight line, but still rides and handles like crap.
The Mustang has a suspension designed in the last decade, and designed for performance and handling, the Harley suspension has be pretty much unchanged in 40 years or more, other than some fancy adjustable shocks that are no better than the air shocks. Sure HD stiffened up the frame a couple times, but the suspension still sucks butt. It is just crying out for mono shock rear suspension with 5" of travel, and the front forks need work too. Plus they cam peel 100 pounds off of the baggers somewhere.
My 2016 will be my last Harley, unless the Moco decides to do something major with the frame.
I bought a BMW in 2018 and box stock it smokes my warmed up 103" in every way. Accelerates faster, rides and handles better, and gets better MPG. Oh, and it cost less money.
Don't misunderstand me. I like my Harley, but it is not a performance motorcycle.
Quote from: hd06myway on January 26, 2020, 07:31:14 AM
Nice to see the haters and doubters come out into the light ... why dontcha all go ride somethin' else ..
Well, maybe the doubters remember the cylinder liners moving on the 110s when they first came out, the cam bearings failing on the first Twin Cams, cranks having some issues on later TCs, the M8s transferring and sumping, the 120s having issues when released, and not one recall on any of those issues.
Just some reasons for a little doubt. And I really do like my HDs.
Quote from: hd06myway on January 25, 2020, 10:14:22 AM
What do all the doubters and haters have to say now? Harley's DESTROYING the competition!
Really.....???
Seems more like Harley is trying to respond to the competition... certainly not "destroying" the competition with these kits.
Several good, solid aftermarket big bore kits making tons of power in M8s.... they don't have out of round cylinders, or seem to increase the chances of sumping, like the early Harley M8 stage IV kits....
Time will tell if the Harley kits are in the same league as the aftermarket kits...
Additionally, all the Harley kits are sold with EPA compliant exhaust & tuners... they should keep your warranty (good), but will not make near the power of the aftermarket kits (bad), at a higher cost...
You can save your shekels for the day your warranty ends and upgrades will not effect anything other than your satisfaction level. You'll have plenty of time to study what is working for your style of riding.
Quote from: Nastytls on January 15, 2020, 12:01:42 PM
Quote from: Hillside Motorcycle on January 15, 2020, 04:25:31 AM
Just finished an S&S 128" kit Monday, with our HMM Heads.
136 hp/157 ft/lbs.
Good for you. What does it have to do with the new SE 128" kit? :down:
Yup.
Good for us...thanks! :smile:
they don't have out of round cylinders, or seem to increase the chances of sumping, like the early Harley M8 stage IV kits....
IME the Drag Specialties imports are the best. The others are not straight and true from day one unless I plate and hone them. The new steel lined cylinder from HD is too new to judge.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on January 27, 2020, 04:37:53 AM
they don't have out of round cylinders, or seem to increase the chances of sumping, like the early Harley M8 stage IV kits....
IME the Drag Specialties imports are the best. The others are not straight and true from day one unless I plate and hone them. The new steel lined cylinder from HD is too new to judge.
My issue with any of these damn air cooled cyls is even if you start out straight, how many remain that way? You can't blast one side of a cyl with colder air and expect it to remain round in the long term. One of the reasons that nikasil "Potty mouth" never works on them. Not enough mass to retain shape.
Ron
I wonder if HD experimented with water cooled cylinders. The provision is already in the heads to feed.
Quote from: HD Street Performance on January 27, 2020, 05:20:24 AM
I wonder if HD experimented with water cooled cylinders. The provision is already in the heads to feed.
I think we can both agree, it's time they did on the big twins and take them to the next level. I think most can tolerate a rad if there's 40-50-60 more ponies to be had as a result. Maybe not, or it would have happened by now.
Ron
I just read that these motors do not fit in trikes. Not sure if that is true, or if there are other reasons that do not work in that application. Seems that trikes in general could always use a little more power.
Quote from: Hossamania on January 29, 2020, 08:27:48 AM
I just read that these motors do not fit in trikes. Not sure if that is true, or if there are other reasons that do not work in that application. Seems that trikes in general could always use a little more power.
Usually when the leave the trike out of something performance wise it's because they don't have a calibration for the street tuner yet. They definitely could benefit from a bit more power.
Maybe they're concerned about what launching 1500+ pounds of bike/rider/gear will do to the rest of the components?
I'm sure Rockout nailed that aspect of why no Tri-Glide/Freewheeler
One more reason that I'm really thinking Boss Hoss if I have to go trike. Just blast the throttle and hang on. Steer by throttle, turn left, twist throttle, counter steer right like I'm drifting in the dirt.
Then have a wheel catch, go tumbling over causing some expensive damage, get some help to flip it back on its wheels, and quietly have a friend take me to the hospital to repair my destroyed shoulder.
Quote from: Hossamania on January 29, 2020, 06:32:39 PM
One more reason that I'm really thinking Boss Hoss if I have to go trike. Just blast the throttle and hang on. Steer by throttle, turn left, twist throttle, counter steer right like I'm drifting in the dirt.
For that reason alone, I will hold onto our sidecar rigs. I still use one and the little short girl I'm with has been all mover on the Ultra. Maybe you could find a rig for your RK. You'd look good on a classic combination like that. It'll be a true beer and grocery getter while extending your season too.
Quote from: Hossamania on January 29, 2020, 06:32:39 PM
One more reason that I'm really thinking Boss Hoss if I have to go trike. Just blast the throttle and hang on. Steer by throttle, turn left, twist throttle, counter steer right like I'm drifting in the dirt.
Then have a wheel catch, go tumbling over causing some expensive damage, get some help to flip it back on its wheels, and quietly have a friend take me to the hospital to repair my destroyed shoulder.
you missed my mod to my post. Should work out fine...
I have always liked the sidecars, been looking at two wheel drive Urals for a long time. Good winter vehicle.
Quote from: Hossamania on January 29, 2020, 06:40:03 PM
Quote from: Hossamania on January 29, 2020, 06:32:39 PM
One more reason that I'm really thinking Boss Hoss if I have to go trike. Just blast the throttle and hang on. Steer by throttle, turn left, twist throttle, counter steer right like I'm drifting in the dirt.
Then have a wheel catch, go tumbling over causing some expensive damage, get some help to flip it back on its wheels, and quietly have a friend take me to the hospital to repair my destroyed shoulder.
you missed my mod to my post. Should work out fine...
:hyst: I shouldn't laugh at that but it's pretty damn funny and I can see it happening .... like slooowww motion. :missed:
Hoss Before you buy a Ural I would suggest you that one out for a couple of days. All I can say is there are different. Just as you are not in a hurry you be good. I have a small collection of sidecars, if I'am in a hurry I take the Bimmer that cruises at 90-95, the next is the Harley which 38 years old and that will cruise between 75-80 on a all day. The Ural is good for about 45-55.
Yup, I've ridden one, it was a handful at speed. The appeal for me is the two wheel drive feature for winter and light off road riding.
Quote from: hd06myway on January 26, 2020, 07:31:14 AM
Nice to see the haters and doubters come out into the light ... why dontcha all go ride somethin' else ..
Don't confuse dissatisfaction for hate and doubt. If there weren't enough of us out here bitching about what Harley-Davidson has to offer, why would they ever try to do better? So I guess you can thank the haters and doubters for the SE-131, right?
Speaking of sidecars and Urals...
Don't mean to hijack this thread. But this is a really good read if you have a little time. From a guy I used to know from Ken Dyke's Harley Email Digest years ago.
http://www.aedst.org/Members/mullie/
Steering back to on topic...
Hoss what you need is one of those Ural side hacks with a SE-131 in it. Turbocharged. Now that would be a handful!
-JW
JW, it's like we grew up together!