Starting yesterday and finishing today, I had the delightful, joyful, wonderful, unbounded happy, experience of the cuff bolt breaking. It was the front bolt. It broke flush with the surface of the casing. A picture of the tools I used to extract. Also, I hit it from two sides with torches, make an extraction turn, it would tighten as it cooled, torch, another turn, it tightened as it cooled, torch, and finally I could bring it out. I did about 5 torch cycles.
When it came out, I put my hand in the vice and squeezed as hard as I could. I wanted to compare which one was more painful.
:emoGroan: Hey Les, ya shoulda asked here. We coulda helped ya out. :fish: I've been dying to hear of someone using the wax trick.
Quote from: kd on March 30, 2020, 04:12:17 PM
:emoGroan: Hey Les, ya shoulda asked here. We coulda helped ya out. :fish: I've been dying to hear of someone using the wax trick.
I have used the "wax trick" several times on Harley exhaust nuts and studs. It does work. Seems simple enough, and it is.
Did you heat it up before the first removal? before it broke?
Quote from: cheech on March 30, 2020, 07:19:37 PM
Did you heat it up before the first removal? before it broke?
No, and my mistake. I considered it but it looked like the plastic cuff was in the way and I was concerned it would melt on the lifters or into the bores. I'm in the process of mocking it up with the plastic cuffs and studying a method to heat and avoid repeating this mistake. What I did do is to work the bolt back and forth, attempting to chew up the thread sealer. That worked on the rear bolt but not on the front.
Question: Do the bolts break because they are cheap, or does H-D use red loctite on the bolts?
Quote from: Tynker on March 30, 2020, 05:47:57 PM
Quote from: kd on March 30, 2020, 04:12:17 PM
:emoGroan: Hey Les, ya shoulda asked here. We coulda helped ya out. :fish: I've been dying to hear of someone using the wax trick.
I have used the "wax trick" several times on Harley exhaust nuts and studs. It does work. Seems simple enough, and it is.
Embarrassed to ask, but what is the wax trick?
Quote from: les on March 31, 2020, 05:39:34 AM
Quote from: Tynker on March 30, 2020, 05:47:57 PM
Quote from: kd on March 30, 2020, 04:12:17 PM
:emoGroan: Hey Les, ya shoulda asked here. We coulda helped ya out. :fish: I've been dying to hear of someone using the wax trick.
I have used the "wax trick" several times on Harley exhaust nuts and studs. It does work. Seems simple enough, and it is.
Embarrassed to ask, but what is the wax trick?
Also embarrassed to ask...what's a cuff bolt before I break one off one day ?
With my specific case, I don't think a heat gun would have done it. I mean, when I was doing the bolt extraction, I had two torches coming in from both sides for at least one minute per session. Then I'd insert the extractor, get about one turn before it cooled and tightened up. Then had to hit it with flame again.
Either it's cheep bolts, using red loctite when H-D is supposed to be using blue, or both.
Quote from: les on March 31, 2020, 08:14:14 AM
With my specific case, I don't think a heat gun would have done it. I mean, when I was doing the bolt extraction, I had two torches coming in from both sides for at least one minute per session. Then I'd insert the extractor, get about one turn before it cooled and tightened up. Then had to hit it with flame again.
Either it's cheep bolts, using red loctite when H-D is supposed to be using blue, or both.
That red can be some nasty chit if surfaces were squeaky clean on install especially if the thread depth is substantial. Holding power could be beyond what it would take to twist the bolt off at the top thread.
Ron
I'll ask also, what is the wax trick?
Would a stud and nut be a better option?
It there is room of course.
That style of easy out is useless in small bolts it expands the bolt trying to grip it and spin it out. I have a much easier time and better results with left hand drills. I also find heating the aluminium case and twisting the broken piece out chews the threads out making for more work. Almost always the left hand drill grabs and spins out the piece, if it doesn't I drill it up to the threads and pick the pieces out of the threads. If your bang on center with the drill a tap easily restores the hole and no insert is required. Also find if you drill the bolt right thru you can direct use a torch to heat the stud and then cool it quickly and unstick from the metal. I wont heat a aluminium case and turn out a steel bolt it almost always destroys the threads.
Just my millwright approach, always helps to stop and have a coffee and cig when your getting frustrated. Working frustrated and mad usually results in more work . Bob
A video was posted a few years ago showing stuck lug nuts being removed.
A lug nut was heated with a lighter (not even a propane torch), candle wax was touched to the lug nut and allowed to kind of melt between the nut and rim, the nut was removed with minimal effort. A few videos are easily found.
I would like to say that the original pic of the damaged case appears to be indicative of hydro force from a fastener that was installed into a bore that was contaminated with oil. Ensuring a threaded blind hole is clean (blown out with air) will prevent this type of damage.
Quote from: Hossamania on March 31, 2020, 11:24:08 AM
A video was posted a few years ago showing stuck lug nuts being removed.
A lug nut was heated with a lighter (not even a propane torch), candle wax was touched to the lug nut and allowed to kind of melt between the nut and rim, the nut was removed with minimal effort. A few videos are easily found.
Cool, thanks :beer:
For all those that think wax works.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIunR4VL5vc
Ron
Quote from: mike jesse on March 31, 2020, 11:11:38 AM
Would a stud and nut be a better option?
It there is room of course.
I was thinking the same thing. But I didn't go down that path because when I re-install I just use blue loctite and surely blue ain't gonna cause any problems on a 14"x20 bolt. So, I use studs in cam plate dowel holes because folks might go back in there, but I truly believe just using the proper loctite solves this problem.
Quote from: FXDBI on March 31, 2020, 11:19:49 AM
That style of easy out is useless in small bolts it expands the bolt trying to grip it and spin it out. I have a much easier time and better results with left hand drills. I also find heating the aluminium case and twisting the broken piece out chews the threads out making for more work. Almost always the left hand drill grabs and spins out the piece, if it doesn't I drill it up to the threads and pick the pieces out of the threads. If your bang on center with the drill a tap easily restores the hole and no insert is required. Also find if you drill the bolt right thru you can direct use a torch to heat the stud and then cool it quickly and unstick from the metal. I wont heat a aluminium case and turn out a steel bolt it almost always destroys the threads.
Just my millwright approach, always helps to stop and have a coffee and cig when your getting frustrated. Working frustrated and mad usually results in more work . Bob
I'll look out for this, but none of this happen to me. That easy out worked like a charm and I was able to easily take it out and put it back in repeated times. Give me credit for being totally successful, in a tight space, with a not so easy procedure.
Quote from: motorhogman on March 31, 2020, 06:36:40 AM
Also embarrassed to ask...what's a cuff bolt before I break one off one day ?
What they are calling "cuff bolts" are the bolts attaching the plastic anti-rotation devices on top of the lifter bores on the M8 engines. Many replace the plastic ones with the metal ones offered by S&S. Many a bolt have broken on folks attempting to remove them when servicing the lifters.
les, what year was the bike? Heard about these bolts breaking a few years ago on the earlier model M8's (17's) but not a lot since. Wonered if they changed the loc-tite on later models or tq spec.
Quote from: klammer76 on March 31, 2020, 04:41:48 PM
les, what year was the bike? Heard about these bolts breaking a few years ago on the earlier model M8's (17's) but not a lot since. Wonered if they changed the loc-tite on later models or tq spec.
You might be right. It's a 2017 Street Glide Special. I just ordered a pair from the local dealership. The parts guy said they are grade 5 bolts.
Quote from: les on March 31, 2020, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: klammer76 on March 31, 2020, 04:41:48 PM
les, what year was the bike? Heard about these bolts breaking a few years ago on the earlier model M8's (17's) but not a lot since. Wonered if they changed the loc-tite on later models or tq spec.
You might be right. It's a 2017 Street Glide Special. I just ordered a pair from the local dealership. The parts guy said they are grade 5 bolts.
Issue there I guess with the grade 5 and Locktite combination. Seems like a nice time for an American made socket head cap screw as long as the head height fits under the tappet cover.
Quote from: cheech on April 01, 2020, 06:38:46 AM
Quote from: les on March 31, 2020, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: klammer76 on March 31, 2020, 04:41:48 PM
les, what year was the bike? Heard about these bolts breaking a few years ago on the earlier model M8's (17's) but not a lot since. Wonered if they changed the loc-tite on later models or tq spec.
You might be right. It's a 2017 Street Glide Special. I just ordered a pair from the local dealership. The parts guy said they are grade 5 bolts.
Issue there I guess with the grade 5 and Locktite combination. Seems like a nice time for an American made socket head cap screw as long as the head height fits under the tappet cover.
I have some new OEM bolts on order, but will also check out alternatives. However, it seems to me that once the bolts are out of the casing, then they would be installed with blue loctite. Not using what H-D appears to have used. At that point of re-install, all will probably be fixed. But the problem is working on a bike were those bolts have never been removed before and getting to the other side of the fence, without disaster, to install them properly.
Is it a case of galling as much as the the threadlocker?
Quote from: les on April 01, 2020, 09:46:42 AM
Quote from: cheech on April 01, 2020, 06:38:46 AM
Quote from: les on March 31, 2020, 07:33:21 PM
Quote from: klammer76 on March 31, 2020, 04:41:48 PM
les, what year was the bike? Heard about these bolts breaking a few years ago on the earlier model M8's (17's) but not a lot since. Wonered if they changed the loc-tite on later models or tq spec.
You might be right. It's a 2017 Street Glide Special. I just ordered a pair from the local dealership. The parts guy said they are grade 5 bolts.
Issue there I guess with the grade 5 and Locktite combination. Seems like a nice time for an American made socket head cap screw as long as the head height fits under the tappet cover.
I have some new OEM bolts on order, but will also check out alternatives. However, it seems to me that once the bolts are out of the casing, then they would be installed with blue loctite. Not using what H-D appears to have used. At that point of re-install, all will probably be fixed. But the problem is working on a bike were those bolts have never been removed before and getting to the other side of the fence, without disaster, to install them properly.
I have never liked the dry patch loc-tite that comes on many of Harley's replacement bolts. I always wire wheel that stuff off and use liquid blue or red depending on what is called for.
QuoteI have never liked the dry patch loc-tite that comes on many of Harley's replacement bolts. I always wire wheel that stuff off and use liquid blue or red depending on what is called for.
:agree:
Quote from: Hossamania on April 01, 2020, 09:58:29 AM
Is it a case of galling as much as the the threadlocker?
I got the rear bolt out, but had to work it back and forth. The front bolt broke even with working it back and forth. I will tell you that both thread holes look in great shape.
The OEM bolt next to the S&S bolt that comes with their S&S lifter cuffs kit.
I can see all of the MOCO execs sitting around that big table laughing away saying " don't worry about that 12 cent manifold problem, we'll make an aluminum one and sell it to the like we did with the different SE compensators. What a pile of crap.
Quote from: les on April 02, 2020, 07:10:53 PM
The OEM bolt next to the S&S bolt that comes with their S&S lifter cuffs kit.
Grade 8 :up: :up:
I just talked to the owner of the 2017 I had this trouble with. He told me that the master mechanic at a local dealership told him that H-D stopped using the thread locker they were using on the 2017's because of the trouble they were having. I can tell you that almost every 1/4" bolt just didn't feel right. As part of my job, I was replacing OEM bolts with a black bolt kit he provided me. Bolts like the tranny top cover and the lifter block cover bolts, some I had to work back and forth for them to give way.
Fuel Moto has instructions, maybe a video, warming up underneath the lifter cuffs with a heat gun. I did it and just slight pressure, my 2017 lifter cuff bolts slid right out!
So, it looks like you're supposed to hold the lifters up with the horseshoe magnets, gut the cam chest, take the lifters out from the bottom, then heat? I'll do that next time and also hit it with some flame from the top at the same time. I never want to go through one of those bolt extractions again if I can at all possibly avoid it.