I'm looking to hopefully do an engine swap this off season and was looking at the S&S motors. S&S says that you have to use their external oil lines and drill into the trans case to run the oil lines externally underneath the engine. obviously the stock HD cases are drilled for internal oiling. my question is, has anyone swapped an S&S and drilled the S&S cases so it can still utilize the stock internal oiling? if so, what's involved in doing so to use the stock oiling system?
There are some posts on the site about this, here are two.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=104687.msg1239057#msg1239057
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=98673.msg1152769#msg1152769
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 27, 2019, 05:13:12 PM
There are some posts on the site about this, here are two.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=104687.msg1239057#msg1239057
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=98673.msg1152769#msg1152769
this is exactly what I was looking for. thank you
I'm sure you are aware of this but you will lose your two year warranty if anything goes wrong with your motor and S&S learns of the modification.
Has anybody inquired with S&S since the HD oiling patent has expired if they would make the modification?
Quote from: HighLiner on January 27, 2019, 08:49:53 PM
Has anybody inquired with S&S since the HD oiling patent has expired if they would make the modification?
My understanding is that the 2006 and below motors are coming off the assembly line now with the oil holes drilled in the case but the patent is still in place for 2007 and up.
Quote from: HighLiner on January 27, 2019, 08:49:53 PM
Has anybody inquired with S&S since the HD oiling patent has expired if they would make the modification?
when I spoke with the guy from S&S a couple weeks ago he did say the additional oil lines are required on the 07 and up motors. By him saying that, I would assume they aren't going to do it
Quote from: Heinz on January 27, 2019, 06:24:49 PM
I'm sure you are aware of this but you will lose your two year warranty if anything goes wrong with your motor and S&S learns of the modification.
there's no doubt about that. I'm just trying to figure out which way I'm gonna go. Either way I decide it's an additional couple hundred bucks because I'd have to buy the drilling fixture for the internal oiling or the drilling fixture for the external lines plus the lines. I also have the oil temp gauge in the fairing which I believe I wont be able to use any longer because of the external lines because one of the 3 fittings uses the hole that the oil temp sensor screws into
Another option is to build a 124" from your cases. Source a good set of 110 heads to have ported and setup for which ever cams, you can have many more cam options with your own build. Even down the road with the S&S motor your limited to three of their cams. Unless you then also change out the cam plate and oil pump to OEM HD style. I mean if the warranty is out the window, why limit your choices at that point?
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 28, 2019, 02:27:56 AM
Another option is to build a 124" from your cases. Source a good set of 110 heads to have ported and setup for which ever cams, you can have many more cam options with your own build. Even down the road with the S&S motor your limited to three of their cams. Unless you then also change out the cam plate and oil pump to OEM HD style. I mean if the warranty is out the window, why limit your choices at that point?
Starting about a week or two ago for 2007 and up S&S is now putting in the TC3 cam plate and oil pump which will open the door for future cam options. The engines are the same part numbers as before but now there's a letter A at the end of the engine part no. to designate the new parts instead of the older proprietary cam plate and oil pump. I have one on order it's supposed to be shipped this week. I decided to keep the external oil lines for the warranty.
Quote from: Heinz on January 28, 2019, 04:49:22 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 28, 2019, 02:27:56 AM
Another option is to build a 124" from your cases. Source a good set of 110 heads to have ported and setup for which ever cams, you can have many more cam options with your own build. Even down the road with the S&S motor your limited to three of their cams. Unless you then also change out the cam plate and oil pump to OEM HD style. I mean if the warranty is out the window, why limit your choices at that point?
Starting about a week or two ago for 2007 and up S&S is now putting in the TC3 cam plate and oil pump which will open the door for future cam options. The engines are the same part numbers as before but now there's a letter A at the end of the engine part no. to designate the new parts instead of the older proprietary cam plate and oil pump. I have one on order it's supposed to be shipped this week. I decided to keep the external oil lines for the warranty.
Even at that, your still pretty much limited if you use S&S cams. There are only really a few, maybe four that suite a 124". And going to another brand will void the warranty no doubt. Nothing wrong with S&S cams, I run one. But I wanted to build my own 124", costs less and you have the original cases in the bike.
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 28, 2019, 05:02:04 AM
But I wanted to build my own 124", costs less and you have the original cases in the bike.
How much you save you think? Not doubting in any way.
In the same predicament and seems just loosely adding it up without getting into hard numbers, seems real close to the crate.
List below doesn't include bore cases, Timken the cases if don't have already and obviously if have heads already skews numbers.
Mention Timken because it is debatable but the S&S does have it. All prices other than heads and crank S&S list. And again aware deals can be had.
Didn't include lifters, pushrods and other ancillary items.
Darkhorse Crank $1500.00
Headwork $1000.00
4 1/8 Cylinder and Piston Kit $1200.00
Cam Plate and Pump $675.00
Cams and Gears $760.00
Roller Rockers $520.00
$5655.00
You can get most of that at better prices. I bought S&S cylinders and custom CP pistons for much less than $1,200. Same with cams and gears. Head work about 60% of that.
Shop around.
Before I ordered the 124 crate motor a few weeks ago I seriously looked at the numbers and just didn't see how I was going to save money. What made the real difference for me is when S&S started putting the TC3 cam plate and oil pump in their motors a few weeks ago. But I wouldn't mind someone correcting me and pointing out how it would be cheaper. This way I have a new motor and I have my existing one on the side that I can sell or eventually rebuild.
I'm not too concerned about what cams the s&s will accept as I'm replacing a literally bone stock 96" motor. I'm not worried about having the highest hp bike in town so I dont care about cams or head work. The 124 should have just about double the hp my current motor has so I'm ok with that lol
Very easy to do with the jig. :up: They even supply the drill bit. Use a vacuum cleaner and grease on the bit when you are in a ways. If you put a metal rod in the bottom of the case passages S&S uses for their oil lines you will feel the bit hit the rod when you're just breaking threw.You will find you will go in pretty deep before you break into the passages.
John
Quote from: Heinz on January 28, 2019, 04:01:04 PM
Before I ordered the 124 crate motor a few weeks ago I seriously looked at the numbers and just didn't see how I was going to save money. What made the real difference for me is when S&S started putting the TC3 cam plate and oil pump in their motors a few weeks ago. But I wouldn't mind someone correcting me and pointing out how it would be cheaper. This way I have a new motor and I have my existing one on the side that I can sell or eventually rebuild.
Me neither, that's why asked. And the whole deal of saying get deals on the individual parts. No duh, but get a deal (below list) on the crate also.
Quote from: cheech on January 29, 2019, 03:18:00 PM
Me neither, that's why asked. And the whole deal of saying get deals on the individual parts. No duh, but get a deal (below list) on the crate also.
Some of us prefer to build our own, know what we have. I personally don't have interest in production line motors. But not everyone can build a motor, I understand that.
Quote from: cheech on January 29, 2019, 03:18:00 PM
Quote from: Heinz on January 28, 2019, 04:01:04 PM
Before I ordered the 124 crate motor a few weeks ago I seriously looked at the numbers and just didn't see how I was going to save money. What made the real difference for me is when S&S started putting the TC3 cam plate and oil pump in their motors a few weeks ago. But I wouldn't mind someone correcting me and pointing out how it would be cheaper. This way I have a new motor and I have my existing one on the side that I can sell or eventually rebuild.
Me neither, that's why asked. And the whole deal of saying get deals on the individual parts. No duh, but get a deal (below list) on the crate also.
Mine snowballed into more than I ever expected. I did get some good deals but it's cheaper to get a crate than build one piece by piece.
Quote from: jsachs1 on January 29, 2019, 02:59:23 PM
Very easy to do with the jig. :up: They even supply the drill bit. Use a vacuum cleaner and grease on the bit when you are in a ways. If you put a metal rod in the bottom of the case passages S&S uses for their oil lines you will feel the bit hit the rod when you're just breaking threw.You will find you will go in pretty deep before you break into the passages.
John
That's what I call great information to know. Thanks.
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 29, 2019, 04:21:06 PM
Some of us prefer to build our own, know what we have. I personally don't have interest in production line motors. But not everyone can build a motor, I understand that.
I'm one of them that can't build my own but would like to. I can use the engine case and heads I removed to put in a crate 124, and with some new tools, guidance and advice from knowledgeable members like you maybe I can make that happen.
Quote from: Heinz on January 29, 2019, 09:40:46 PM
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 29, 2019, 04:21:06 PM
Some of us prefer to build our own, know what we have. I personally don't have interest in production line motors. But not everyone can build a motor, I understand that.
I'm one of them that can't build my own but would like to. I can use the engine case and heads I removed to put in a crate 124, and with some new tools, guidance and advice from knowledgeable members like you maybe I can make that happen.
That's what this site is all about. LOT'S of very experienced guys on this site.
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 29, 2019, 04:21:06 PM
Quote from: cheech on January 29, 2019, 03:18:00 PM
Me neither, that's why asked. And the whole deal of saying get deals on the individual parts. No duh, but get a deal (below list) on the crate also.
Some of us prefer to build our own, know what we have. I personally don't have interest in production line motors. But not everyone can build a motor, I understand that.
Oh I can, have, and will if it makes sense from all aspects. Just gets close when all added up and may exceed by the time a build is done nickle-ing and dime-ing someone.
Heads, cylinders, cams no doubt roll with it. But once you split the cases, buying the crank, and all the other parts. Component for component the S&S becomes a good value for what its worth.
It'd be like roofing your house and spending over what someone could of done it for.
I'm all for original cases in the bike, knowing what you have because you've done it, for the fun of doing it and whatnot. But then again the original engine as a shelf piece is kinda cool too.
S&S might be considered production line but I don't know if anyone would consider them in a negative production line sense.
Quote from: Ohio HD on January 29, 2019, 04:21:06 PM
Quote from: cheech on January 29, 2019, 03:18:00 PM
Me neither, that's why asked. And the whole deal of saying get deals on the individual parts. No duh, but get a deal (below list) on the crate also.
Some of us prefer to build our own, know what we have. I personally don't have interest in production line motors. But not everyone can build a motor, I understand that.
First off I rather have a built engine as I had both. Crate motor, built motor. I don't want any more of those oil lines either , drilled cases and no warranty if that is the case. My version of the truth here , a built engine like I prefer with premium parts and workmanship . My current 124 makes in the mid 140s with the rush wrath and the small baffle , does not leak a drop and uses very little , blow by is minimum and I run it . There is no comparison between the crate 124 I bought and what I have now . I sure the maga flow heads have something to do with that and the 640 cam set to 11.3 I think
I replaced the stock 103" in my 2015 Street Glide at 800 miles with an S&S 124 LC crate engine. They had it in stock built on HD Screaming Eagle Pro cases so no external oil lines were needed. No regrets and I have 9000 miles on it so far. The 124 puts out 127 HP and 136 TQ. It is a great base if you want to add more power later, but quite frankly I just don't care about that. The bike redlines at 133 MPH, it gets there pretty fast and that is good enough for me. S&S also put a two year unlimited mileage warranty on the motor which I have not needed.
The stock Harley 103" engine was far from a performance engine and would have taken considerable time and money to get to the level of the S&S 124. From a cost standpoint, I was miles ahead with the way I went, especially because I was able to sell the 103" for a good price to offset the cost of the S&S 124.
Each to his own you know. Just telling what worked for me.
Quote from: Die Hard on February 12, 2019, 08:06:04 AM
I replaced the stock 103" in my 2015 Street Glide at 800 miles with an S&S 124 LC crate engine. They had it in stock built on HD Screaming Eagle Pro cases so no external oil lines were needed. No regrets and I have 9000 miles on it so far. The 124 puts out 127 HP and 136 TQ. It is a great base if you want to add more power later, but quite frankly I just don't care about that. The bike redlines at 133 MPH, it gets there pretty fast and that is good enough for me. S&S also put a two year unlimited mileage warranty on the motor which I have not needed.
The stock Harley 103" engine was far from a performance engine and would have taken considerable time and money to get to the level of the S&S 124. From a cost standpoint, I was miles ahead with the way I went, especially because I was able to sell the 103" for a good price to offset the cost of the S&S 124.
Each to his own you know. Just telling what worked for me.
That's a great way to go , that about what my lc did although my motor did not work out for me , I wanted more so it was not a big deal . I saw a good while back where a fellow took his heads to Rick Ward and upped the compression on the 585 cams and I think it went in the low 140s square . I was impressed and still am lol . Of course that probably ended his warranty or some of it not that I would care . SS makes good products and I would not worry about the bottom end
Do you happen to remember what level of compression that guy went to? Just curious because I have not seen dyno numbers with increased compression using 585 cams. I'm guessing that might have been the best of both worlds - great bottom end torque associated with that cam and good horsepower in the mid to top end. I have seen some amazing numbers coming from Rick Ward's head work.
Quote from: Die Hard on February 13, 2019, 01:54:09 PM
Do you happen to remember what level of compression that guy went to? Just curious because I have not seen dyno numbers with increased compression using 585 cams. I'm guessing that might have been the best of both worlds - great bottom end torque associated with that cam and good horsepower in the mid to top end. I have seen some amazing numbers coming from Rick Ward's head work.
Yea it was damn impressive , I can find it for you in the dyno section . I pretty sure I know around what the head flowed and it made hp period with the 585 set with compression I think around 200 not sure . It is a piston change I think and heads port work. I had a lc 124 and it made around 126 or 7 hp . This is a day and night change lol