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M8 trans fluid leaking in primary

Started by grnrock, February 17, 2017, 02:31:46 PM

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oldbag

Quote from: HOGMIKE on March 12, 2019, 02:55:07 PM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 12, 2019, 12:35:00 PM
Quote from: Dmerch on March 12, 2019, 10:35:34 AM
Isn't the surface where you're milling the slot already unsealed due to the gasket thickness?

Not when you do the calc based on the gasket compressed clearance and the viscosity of Formula+, it's virtually a seal. Evidenced by the fact that the MoCo fitted a white nylon oil deflector as a revision to the out-bye side of the mainshaft support bearing for oil control. The MoCo know they have issue with excess oil flow/pressure in that area

The step around the slave housing is approx 5mm wide with a gap of about <0.40mm, effectively a seal to 50W-80W oil flow at the pressure/vac levels were working with.

Even though the top of that surface is BELOW box oil fill height, I'm of the opinion that air doesn't bleed from the box-void past that surface in OEM spec, if it did the primary wouldn't suck oil...well spotted Dmerch, after 30+ years of building suspension one can spot what is, and isn't, a hydraulic bleed I guess. :embarrassed:

p.s. Don't we all wish the MoCo would just own-up? The ONLY reason they don't is surely that they can't figure it out...

It's a shame we have to go through all the steps one by one then the dealership calls MOCO to get a RO # for the NEXT step.
Seems to me to do "one and done."
Does it make sense they don't have a good fix yet, after 2+ years?

The little white plastic "sleeve" that fits over the clutch release rod is a very loose fit on the rod will have some play. Mine had that from the factory but still has the issue. The new  sleeve is also a sloppy fit on the shaft, probably to avert any resistance along the clutch system.
:nix:

my 2019 was made 11/18...it didn't have the white plastic sleeve...
2019 FLHXS
there is nothing like a good tune...

oldbag

Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 12, 2019, 12:35:00 PM
Quote from: Dmerch on March 12, 2019, 10:35:34 AM
Isn't the surface where you're milling the slot already unsealed due to the gasket thickness?

Not when you do the calc based on the gasket compressed clearance and the viscosity of Formula+, it's virtually a seal. Evidenced by the fact that the MoCo fitted a white nylon oil deflector as a revision to the out-bye side of the mainshaft support bearing for oil control. The MoCo know they have issue with excess oil flow/pressure in that area

The step around the slave housing is approx 5mm wide with a gap of about <0.40mm, effectively a seal to 50W-80W oil flow at the pressure/vac levels were working with.

Even though the top of that surface is BELOW box oil fill height, I'm of the opinion that air doesn't bleed from the box-void past that surface in OEM spec, if it did the primary wouldn't suck oil...well spotted Dmerch, after 30+ years of building suspension one can spot what is, and isn't, a hydraulic bleed I guess. :embarrassed:

p.s. Don't we all wish the MoCo would just own-up? The ONLY reason they don't is surely that they can't figure it out...

I miked a used gasket I removed...it was .019 thick...that is not much of a gap between the side cover and the transmission...
2019 FLHXS
there is nothing like a good tune...

HogMike

[
[/quote]

Not when you do the calc based on the gasket compressed clearance and the viscosity of Formula+, it's virtually a seal. Evidenced by the fact that the MoCo fitted a white nylon oil deflector as a revision to the out-bye side of the mainshaft support bearing for oil control. The MoCo know they have issue with excess oil flow/pressure in that area

The step around the slave housing is approx 5mm wide with a gap of about <0.40mm, effectively a seal to 50W-80W oil flow at the pressure/vac levels were working with.

Even though the top of that surface is BELOW box oil fill height, I'm of the opinion that air doesn't bleed from the box-void past that surface in OEM spec, if it did the primary wouldn't suck oil...well spotted Dmerch, after 30+ years of building suspension one can spot what is, and isn't, a hydraulic bleed I guess. :embarrassed:

p.s. Don't we all wish the MoCo would just own-up? The ONLY reason they don't is surely that they can't figure it out...
[/quote]

It's a shame we have to go through all the steps one by one then the dealership calls MOCO to get a RO # for the NEXT step.
Seems to me to do "one and done."
Does it make sense they don't have a good fix yet, after 2+ years?

The little white plastic "sleeve" that fits over the clutch release rod is a very loose fit on the rod will have some play. Mine had that from the factory but still has the issue. The new  sleeve is also a sloppy fit on the shaft, probably to avert any resistance along the clutch system.
:nix:
[/quote]

my 2019 was made 11/18...it didn't have the white plastic sleeve...
[/quote]

My build date was 1/19. I was told it was a running change and if you have this issue dealer will check to see if the plastic sleeve is installed. If not they will install it under an RO number from Harley.
:scratch:
HOGMIKE
SoCal

Maddo Snr

Hogmike: "Does it make sense they don't have a good fix yet, after 2+ years?"

Yep, it makes sense to me. They've constantly modified the S/C diaphragm (3 times) and the oil deflector (3 versions) in an attempt to create a system where air can flow both ways but oil can't flow one way. They've focused on one area of the system (not with much success).

None of their 'fixes' break the oil passage and interrupt hydraulic flow. I fitted an AIM S/C to a new FLHX yesterday and noticed that the latest oil deflector perfectly clears the AIM push-cup. That was very thoughtful of the MoCo...
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

HogMike

Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 12, 2019, 06:00:08 PM
Hogmike: "Does it make sense they don't have a good fix yet, after 2+ years?"

Yep, it makes sense to me. They've constantly modified the S/C diaphragm (3 times) and the oil deflector (3 versions) in an attempt to create a system where air can flow both ways but oil can't flow one way. They've focused on one area of the system (not with much success).

None of their 'fixes' break the oil passage and interrupt hydraulic flow. I fitted an AIM S/C to a new FLHX yesterday and noticed that the latest oil deflector perfectly clears the AIM push-cup. That was very thoughtful of the MoCo...

Ya know they always try to please their customers!
:potstir: :baby:
HOGMIKE
SoCal

Maddo Snr

Maddo Snr: "I fitted an AIM S/C to a new FLHX yesterday and noticed that the latest oil deflector perfectly clears the AIM push-cup. That was very thoughtful of the MoCo..."

That problem FLHX dropped in today so I popped the derby off and checked the primary oil level, 300 miles in 85 degree heat in the hills. Oil level hadn't moved. AIM + vent + machined bypass.

The factory service regime needs to measure primary oil height at each service and record it (as well as sump drained oil volume).

We have clown service managers over here constantly saying "we've never seen it". Helllooooo, that's because you have no monitoring system in place.

They didn't find something they had no method of looking for, fancy that.  :banghead:
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

hd06

  Over here too i'm the only one in N.W. Arkansas that had this problem.

Maddo Snr

Quote from: hd06 on March 13, 2019, 02:59:42 AM
  Over here too i'm the only one in N.W. Arkansas that had this problem.

I bet you're not!

You're the only one who has spotted it, the dealers aren't looking/have no system for checking...
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

HogMike

March 13, 2019, 04:12:38 AM #1333 Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 09:18:11 AM by HOGMIKE
True, service department or customer isn't looking for a problem

:potstir:
HOGMIKE
SoCal

Dmerch

Maddo Snr, regarding the trans to primary oil migration, can you summarize your fix?
I'll be taking delivery in about 2 weeks and one of the first things I'll be doing is adding an AIM slave cylinder. What else should I do while I'm in there?

Maddo Snr

March 13, 2019, 01:46:19 PM #1335 Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 01:55:33 PM by Maddo Snr
Quote from: Dmerch on March 13, 2019, 04:55:46 AM
Maddo Snr, regarding the trans to primary oil migration, can you summarize your fix?
I'll be taking delivery in about 2 weeks and one of the first things I'll be doing is adding an AIM slave cylinder. What else should I do while I'm in there?

Sure, three pronged approach (early days yet though D, I'm calling 20+ bikes cured a fix, not 5...)
1) AIM slave
2) Primary vent (KTM250XC trans vent spigot, YZ250 fuel tank valve and hose)
3) milled by-pass in box hat.

*Gearbox oil bottom of 'X' while bike is vertical,
*Primary oil 1/2" under derby notch
*80W140 gear oil or similar in box
*20W50 full syn motor oil in primary.
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

Maddo Snr

March 13, 2019, 02:08:15 PM #1336 Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 02:29:45 PM by Maddo Snr
Just a note:

As the box oil migrates to the primary, the primary oil level rises (obviously).
Then IMO, the primary air void then gets smaller, the oil load increases and the action of the primary in causing transfer gets worse and worse.

I believe it's a logarithmic transfer of oil which is why once it starts it seems to get worse.

Re:warranty. Here in OZ the MoCo would have to prove in a court of law that any mod had caused a particular warrantable claim, which would be near impossible given they've made 6-7 changes themselves and not fixed the issue. They clearly don't understand their own design.

Also, there's not much point in warranty when the MoCo;
1) created this design fault
2) can't fix it...after TWO YEARS.
3) has run out of parts to do repairs (slave cylinder diaphragms)
4) has employees doing independent fixes

Don't despair lads, Yamaha had WR450s compression-locking on hot start for 7 years and never lifted a finger - HotCams USA fixed it, Honda had CRF250Rs snap-bogging for 2 years before we found the issue - mis-aimed squirt mast. BMW abandoned production of the G450X because it had too many design faults to fix. KTM/WP have made SEVEN different front forks in 10 years trying to match KYBs 14 year old AOS fork.

It goes on with every brand.  :scratch:
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

HogMike

I'll bet none of those bikes were $40K plus, American!
:SM:

Yes other makes had/has issues. BMW comes to mind a few years ago, they had no easy fix, kept the bikes off the road, would not sell them, had a buy back program for those out of service. Other brands had issues also.

I've started a paper trail on my latest and I DO want to keep it.
I'm trying hard to let the dealer and factory fix their problem because as soon as I touch it it's then MY problem, and the MOCO and dealer will say "BUH BYE"
:nix:
HOGMIKE
SoCal

Admiral Akbar

Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 13, 2019, 02:08:15 PM

I believe it's a logarithmic transfer of oil which is why once it starts it seems to get worse.


Don't you mean exponential?

HogMike

HOGMIKE
SoCal

oldbag

   [/b]Maddo Snr[/b]
Sure, three pronged approach (early days yet though D, I'm calling 20+ bikes cured a fix, not 5...)

that is strong results! do you feel the AIM has a lot to do with your cure?
2019 FLHXS
there is nothing like a good tune...

Maddo Snr

Quote from: oldbag on March 13, 2019, 03:44:53 PM
   [/b]Maddo Snr[/b]
Sure, three pronged approach (early days yet though D, I'm calling 20+ bikes cured a fix, not 5...)

that is strong results! do you feel the AIM has a lot to do with your cure?

Yeh, as the AIM push spigot moves it totally opens up the area that the OEM diaphragm seals off. Although the latest HD nylon spacer seals perfectly around the AIM spigot, which in itself very fishy. The latest nylon spacer seems to be made more for the AIM S/C than the OEM version...

The AIM device is worth the price for its smoothness in traffic and low pressure action in hilly country. I love them.
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

Maddo Snr

Quote from: Admiral Akbar on March 13, 2019, 03:01:13 PM
Quote from: Maddo Snr on March 13, 2019, 02:08:15 PM

I believe it's a logarithmic transfer of oil which is why once it starts it seems to get worse.


Don't you mean exponential?

Nah, the oil's moving DOWN from the gearbox to the primary and Log is the inverse of the Exp...  :hyst:

Guilty as charged Admiral, I stuffed up.  :emoGroan:
2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

Dmerch

Found this on another forum. Makes sense as does your fix Maddo Snr.

Dmerch

So the gist is, keep the oil from pooling around the end of the mainshaft so it's not being sucked up or gravity fed to the primary. Venting may help some, but keeping the oil from being in the wrong place in the first place should solve the issue. Does that make sense to anyone else?

Maddo Snr

March 13, 2019, 06:55:41 PM #1345 Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 07:37:22 PM by Maddo Snr
Quote from: Dmerch on March 13, 2019, 05:13:23 PM
...Venting may help some, but keeping the oil from being in the wrong place in the first place should solve the issue. Does that make sense to anyone else?

The MoCo have designed three (increasingly better sealed) versions of oil control on the out-bye side of the mainshaft bearing, without much success. Given that as RPMs rise the oil in the primary expands through turgidity AND the air void in the primary expands through heating, both these things would cause air/oil-mist to flow in a direction opposing transfer, not inducing it.

I've seen a bad bike transfer the box dry in too short a time to simply be oil running downhill. If the mainshaft RHS bearing was indeed pumping oil along the cross-shaft;
a) the early version nylon deflector would've cured the problem, and
b) we wouldn't have MoCo reps venting the primary and making it EASIER to 'pump' into the primary...

2018 FLHX 107
Rinehart 45s, SE cleaner, TTS MasterTune. 92/108

Hammerhandle

Maddo and others,
So whats the DIY solution for the folks that dont have access to Milling equipment or decent machine shop to take it to?
Is there a solution like the picture with channels heading from the diaphragm that could be made by hand or with a die grinder?



2019 Wicked Red Denim FLTRXS

FSG


Hilly13

Just because its said don't make it so

Dmerch

So venting does help some but the MoCo's seal/slinger isn't having any effect?
Given the volume moved over a short time, it does sound like a pumping action of some kind. Perhaps an augering effect? Is the mainshaft clutch rod bore very rough machined?
Apologies if I'm just dragging up previously discussed theories, I'm late to this party...