I am wondering about how they effect valve train clatter and what may be some solutions to getting them down to a dull roar. I have a 27 cam, stock lifters, Andrews springs and S&S lifters running Castrol oil. I've been running this setup without the springs until last year when I added a 46 cam and it was suggested that I add springs,so I did. I didn't care for the 46 so much so I went back to the 27. My front exhaust is louder that I remember, so I'm head scratching for answers. I'm thinking the addition of the springs is a culprit seeing that it's the only thing that got changed except for the cam swap. BTW, I use the stock cam gear when I change cams. In doing some reading I have found some talk of the springs adding some noise in the train.
Not clear to me why heavier springs would make the valve train that much noisier. EV-46 don't need heavy springs, it's a bolt in cam with 10 deg more duration than the -27, so moves the sweet spot up 500 or so rpm, but it's no high rpm cam and is stock lift. To my ear, Andrews cams are noisier than many, Wood is even worse. Front exhaust is always the noisiest of the bunch.
:idunno:
-JW
The 46 needs mo' compression.
Low end torque will be waaaaaay different than a 27.
Wood 6 or 6H is our go-to here in those.
I didn't mention that I also have Wiseco 10 to 1's. Just trying to get something going on ways to fight the rattle. I'm reading that maybe only going 3 turns on the P rods instead of 4 cause it might give the lifter just a bit more cushion when it falls off the ramp. Or synthetic Vs dino and maybe going to 50 w instead of 20-50. I realize I'm not going to make them quiet. I've been on this road since the 70's. This stuff is just fun to talk about.
Wiseco forged pistons? Running at what clearance? 3 thou? Is there any chance you're hearing piston slap?
-JW
Or spark knock, I had to back off the spark on mine because it would ping on the VOES. (w/Crane 310)
Weird thing is it did not sound like pinging, it was quieter, sounded like valve noise. My clue was it came and went with the throttle.
Valve noise is valve noise and does not change with the load.
If your lifters are leaving the cam you have some seriously dead valve springs.
I'd like to say your lifters are not bouncing on the cam.
If this was happening you'd know it (the noise would be really bad) and it would get worse with RPM.
I'd be looking at some rocker lockers and pushrod cover clearance.
After revisiting my pushrod adjustment procedure.
Just came back from a short ride.The bike runs great, just sounds like a rattle trap at idle specially when hot and this engine seems to be a bit noisier than my last one. I ran an EV3 in an early EVO that was noisy also. The 27 and the 3 have similar profiles and have never been noted for how quiet they are. I guess if I want quiet I'm gonna have to buy a Honda or a Singer :wink:
Quote from: Burnout on July 22, 2020, 08:10:09 AM
Or spark knock, I had to back off the spark on mine because it would ping on the VOES. (w/Crane 310)
Weird thing is it did not sound like pinging, it was quieter, sounded like valve noise. My clue was it came and went with the throttle.
Valve noise is valve noise and does not change with the load.
I'm running the 27 also, but always wanted to hear what others thought of the crane fireball 310 which is a very singular grind . How does it perform and is it as noisy as the Andrews/Woods?
Thanks
Performs about the same, less noise. IF you can find one. Crane Cams for Harley-Davidson went tits up about 10 years or so ago.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on July 23, 2020, 07:21:44 PM
Performs about the same, less noise. IF you can find one. Crane Cams for Harley-Davidson went tits up about 10 years or so ago.
-JW
I have come across one vendor that still sells them actually. I was quite surprised to find them myself.
I ran a Crane in the Bike I mentioned that ran the EV3. I don't recall whether it was noisy or not or how it ran. If I recall it was equivalent to the Andrews EV13. I had to take it out because the inner bearing surface had galled but the bearing was fine.Must have been a soft journal.That was the last Crane I used.
Crane's equivalent to the EV-13 is the 300-2B, which is what I have in my '92. Was using the 310 but changed to the 300-2b. My favorite cam. I just don't spin the motor north of 5K very often, rather have that nice torque snap down low.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on July 24, 2020, 07:00:14 AM
Crane's equivalent to the EV-13 is the 300-2B, which is what I have in my '92. Was using the 310 but changed to the 300-2b. My favorite cam. I just don't spin the motor north of 5K very often, rather have that nice torque snap down low.
-JW
Yeah, that's exactly what I thought.
300-2 = ev13
310-2 = ev27
Did you run the 310 with a bit more compression?
Shame they went out of business, seems like a good alternative to the standard Andrews cams.
I ran 310-2 in a FXR back in the 90's. Could feel it hit at about 1500 rpm. Loved it.
Try Spectro 25-60 DINO oil. When it comes to noise there's nothing better.
Then there's those little rocker shaft inserts :smiled:
Higher valve spring pressure and lifters that may have been marginal with the original springs. the lifters collapse and then don't recover fast enough. Now you have valve lash, clearance , and noise. Worn lifters root cause, exaggerated by higher spring pressure, and can be masked with some 60W oil. Shaft clacketing sure a possibility as a separate issue. Preload is not the fix but it may make a change.
Quote from: Adam76 on July 24, 2020, 05:21:40 PM
Did you run the 310 with a bit more compression?
The same motor, same compression, 9.5:1. For me, swapping cams around until it runs the way I want is part of the tuning process. 300, 310, the two cams ain't all that different, just a few hundred rpms where the torque peak is. Softaill is a rigid mount motor, never made sense to me to put the power in the upper rpms there vibs live. Then again, my softail ain't a hot rod, just a fun to ride cruiser and could-be tourer.
Crane did not go out of business, they just dropped making parts for Harley-Davidsons. S&S took up their ignition line, but the cam biz is gone. Bummer, as I found they had one of the better cam product lines (for my needs at least), good performance and quiet. I ran a High Roller H310 in my 89" stroker, and even it was quiet.
-JW
" good performance and quiet." (Crane)
Why I ran them. Andrews was good, but ticky. Even when I changed the gear. Only time I had a really quiet Andrews was a 27 with WFO Larry lifters, couple years ago.
You may be hearing the pinion and cam gears clattering...
A worn outer bushing will also cause excess gear lash.
Quote from: Deye76 on July 25, 2020, 07:53:45 AM
I ran 310-2 in a FXR back in the 90's. Could feel it hit at about 1500 rpm. Loved it.
Wow, that's really interesting (to me) comparing it to the ev27 the 310-2 is very close but has a little more exhaust duration and 1* later intake close if I'm remembering correctly, so you would expect it to cone on a little later than that, perhaps even later than the 27.... but obviously that's why there's more to cams than just their specs on paper?
Thanks for the reply.
Dude. What some of us have been saying for some time. Specs are specs, real world is real world. Screw the specs, trust the real world. Quit trying to analyze this crap from some on line calculator, just build and go. Then adjust. I don't understand the point of trying to "build the perfect formula" over the interweb and expect perfect results. Yes, you may have to change cams later to tune it to your liking. Welcome to Harley-Davidson-land. Built it, test it, make changes as required.
:idunno:
Ciao,
JW
Quote from: JW113 on July 25, 2020, 07:29:24 PM
Dude. What some of us have been saying for some time. Specs are specs, real world is real world. Screw the specs, trust the real world. Quit trying to analyze this crap from some on line calculator, just build and go. Then adjust. I don't understand the point of trying to "build the perfect formula" over the interweb and expect perfect results. Yes, you may have to change cams later to tune it to your liking. Welcome to Harley-Davidson-land. Built it, test it, make changes as required.
:idunno:
Ciao,
JW
JW..... It was a just a point of discussion, especially when 2 cams with almost identical specs behave differently in the real world..... Had absolutely nothing to do with my build.
Respectfully.
Quote from: Rockout Rocker Products on July 25, 2020, 08:33:32 AM
Try Spectro 25-60 DINO oil. When it comes to noise there's nothing better.
Then there's those little rocker shaft inserts :smiled:
This or Brad Penn oil. Either one & my bike is quiet. Put in synthetic & it sounds like a totally different motor. That synthetic also has a way of leaking out past those rubber valve cover gaskets.
Haven't needed the inserts. Yet. :wink:
My bike being a 95 only has 10,000 miles on it. There were only 1200 on it when I got it a few years ago from a RUB. I don't put a lot of miles on anymore. I also noticed that when I tried synthetic oil the engine was noisier, hence part of the question. For some reason I had never heard about the rocker lockers, but that's an interesting idea.
"obviously that's why there's more to cams than just their specs"
FXR in my post key, = light bike. A bike weighing a couple hundred ponds more is going to respond differently. As JW offered, don't overthink, and don't build off only the internet. I chose that Crane cam after seeing what it did in my friends bike, after he cleaned my clock.
Quote from: Deye76 on July 26, 2020, 08:36:01 AM
"obviously that's why there's more to cams than just their specs"
FXR in my post key, = light bike. A bike weighing a couple hundred ponds more is going to respond differently. As JW offered, don't overthink, and don't build off only the internet. I chose that Crane cam after seeing what it did in my friends bike, after he cleaned my clock.
Absolutely 👍..... It was your comment that the Crane 310 cam hit at 1500rpm that caught my attention, that's all.
Thanks.