Thanks for all the help I've had so far in my top end build on the '96 heritage softail.
Build so far:
EV27 cam
Inner bearing
New oil pump pinion drive shaft gear
New metal breather gear
Barrels bored and honed for 9.5 KB forged pistons.
Heads cleaned up + 3 angle valve job and 10 thou taken off when facing them.
8 thou taken of bases of jugs to get me 32 squish with .030 HG.
New lifters of course.
My question is that when I removed the adjustable pushrods that were already in there, and pulled out the ev46 cam, I wasn't sure if the pushrods were straight and true and able to be reused?
I did the rolling on the flat glass test, but all I could see that was possibly not right was that 2 of the 4 PRs possibly didn't run completely smoothly along the glass - they had a very slight tap tap tap kind of sound as they rolled. I Couldn't see any bowing with the naked eye? Don't have any proper told to test for straighteness...
Should I just replace them for good insurance? Or am I being way too anal as they only have probably 20alK max miles on them when the ev46 was installed by previous owner...... I'm looking at a set of S&S adjustables chrome moly but they are all $$$.
What do you guys think?
If it were me... and I realize it's not but after all that work and a questionable pair of push rods I'm changing them...
Quote from: motorhogman on August 19, 2020, 06:41:53 AM
If it were me... and I realize it's not but after all that work and a questionable pair of push rods I'm changing them...
Thanks motorhogman, that's what I'm trying to get at. With my limited experience, I can't tell what a good pushrods and a questionable pushrods are supposed to be like? Or how to really know other than a professional shop charging me to test their run out with a dial on a lathe.
They have no real obvious bend, but that doesn't mean anything, right?
Cheers
All it has to do is transfer the pressure, and oil, from the lifter, to the rocker arm- if there's no visible bend, and you can blow air through them, they're fine.
You can set a variable speed drill with a good chuck up in a vise and check them from both ends if you want also.
Another consideration is the .008 removed from the barrels, .010 from the heads and the .015 difference in the thinner head gasket. This puts the solid pushrods .032 deeper in the lifter when assembled. That would be the same as setting adjustables to .132 instead of .100 deep. That is still workable and some may say preferable but if you haven't already, it is something you may want to consider. Adjustables give you control of that dimension.
Quote from: kd on August 19, 2020, 07:20:20 AM
You can set a variable speed drill with a good chuck up in a vise and check them from both ends if you want also.
Another consideration is the .008 removed from the barrels, .010 from the heads and the .015 difference in the thinner head gasket. This puts the solid pushrods .032 deeper in the lifter when assembled. That would be the same as setting adjustables to .132 instead of .100 deep. That is still workable and some may say preferable but if you haven't already, it is something you may want to consider. Adjustables give you control of that dimension.
Thanks kd, yes I briefly tried the drill method and I don't trust the chuck in my drill as any measure of testing pushrods straighteness 😬
The pushrods I'm taking about in this post are adjustables (not stock) so if I was to replace them I would be replacing adjustables for new adjustables..... Just don't have any experience in looking at pushrods and knowing when they're no longer in great shape and it's time to replace them?
Cheers
Quote from: rigidthumper on August 19, 2020, 07:15:14 AM
All it has to do is transfer the pressure, and oil, from the lifter, to the rocker arm- if there's no visible bend, and you can blow air through them, they're fine.
Thanks rigidthumper, yes there's no obvious bend to the eye, even only the slightest bend visible when I put them up against a straight edge....
I can blow a little slow amount of air through, so they are not blocked
Thanks
I usually roll the push rods on my handy lift. If their bent you will know. As far as tip wear they look well broken in and will perform. I prefer solid more so than adjustable push rods and going down an extra .032 should be no problem and what was said could be a benefit.
MIKE
Put them against the straight edge, then rotate them 180° and measure again. If bent, there will be a gap in the middle on one side, and bend away at the tips on the other side. You can basically measure "four" sides to check for true. If you can't really tell if there is a difference, you should be good to go.
Quote from: MikeL on August 19, 2020, 04:05:27 PM
I usually roll the push rods on my handy lift. If their bent you will know. As far as tip wear they look well broken in and will perform. I prefer solid more so than adjustable push rods and going down an extra .032 should be no problem and what was said could be a benefit.
MIKE
Thanks Mike. By 32 you mean 32 flats extra turns?
Quote from: Hossamania on August 19, 2020, 04:24:51 PM
Put them against the straight edge, then rotate them 180° and measure again. If bent, there will be a gap in the middle on one side, and bend away at the tips on the other side. You can basically measure "four" sides to check for true. If you can't really tell if there is a difference, you should be good to go.
Hey Hoss, thanks for the reply.
On two of them up against a straight edge I can see the slightest bit of daylight on one side as the pushrods lean out a fraction.... How much is too much if I measure with feeler gauge, 5 thou?
Thanks
I am the wrong one to ask of actual technical questions like that.
Have you measured it yet?
Quote from: kd on August 19, 2020, 07:20:20 AM
Another consideration is the .008 removed from the barrels, .010 from the heads and the .015 difference in the thinner head gasket. This puts the solid pushrods .032 deeper in the lifter when assembled. That would be the same as setting adjustables to .132 instead of .100 deep. That is still workable and some may say preferable but if you haven't already, it is something you may want to consider.
Thanks kd, are you saying it is an option to go back to the stock oem PRs? Or are you referring to actual aftermarket solid PRs?
Thanks
Ideally, you'd want to assemble it, measure it, and have custom pushrods made. But you have a mild build, and adjustable rods will be fine. For reference, I have a 95" twin cam motor with head work and a higher lift cam, and I've been running adjustable pushrods for 90,000 miles with no problems, the rods have never been readjusted, and this motor gets hell beat out of it (literally run to redline thousands of times). I doubt you'll have any problems with yours.
Quote from: Adam76 on August 19, 2020, 05:21:48 PM
Quote from: kd on August 19, 2020, 07:20:20 AM
Another consideration is the .008 removed from the barrels, .010 from the heads and the .015 difference in the thinner head gasket. This puts the solid pushrods .032 deeper in the lifter when assembled. That would be the same as setting adjustables to .132 instead of .100 deep. That is still workable and some may say preferable but if you haven't already, it is something you may want to consider.
Thanks kd, are you saying it is an option to go back to the stock oem PRs? Or are you referring to actual aftermarket solid PRs?
Thanks
Adam, I missed that you had adjustables in there and that's what you were checking for true. You are right that I was assuming you were using the OEM one piece pushrods. They typically will be at .100 depth and the .032 would not be a problem as long as the cam base circle is the same as OEM and you did not have previous machine work that would be in addition to the .032 from this round of work performed. As Hoss said, checking on assembly is a must. Adjustables do take the guess work out if you use the proper adjustment procedure.
I think you will find most adjustables to have some deflection by the nature of the threaded insert. If the shaft is straight that's all you can do. Were they a problem before you removed them?.
Thanks Hoss, probably be fine like you said.
Just thought I'd check. 😬
Cheers.
Quote from: kd on August 19, 2020, 06:06:14 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on August 19, 2020, 05:21:48 PM
Quote from: kd on August 19, 2020, 07:20:20 AM
Another consideration is the .008 removed from the barrels, .010 from the heads and the .015 difference in the thinner head gasket. This puts the solid pushrods .032 deeper in the lifter when assembled. That would be the same as setting adjustables to .132 instead of .100 deep. That is still workable and some may say preferable but if you haven't already, it is something you may want to consider.
Thanks kd, are you saying it is an option to go back to the stock oem PRs? Or are you referring to actual aftermarket solid PRs?
Thanks
Adam, I missed that you had adjustables in there and that's what you were checking for true. You are right that I was assuming you were using the OEM one piece pushrods. They typically will be at .100 depth and the .032 would not be a problem as long as the cam base circle is the same as OEM and you did not have previous machine work that would be in addition to the .032 from this round of work performed. As Hoss said, checking on assembly is a must. Adjustables do take the guess work out if you use the proper adjustment procedure.
I think you will find most adjustables to have some deflection by the nature of the threaded insert. If the shaft is straight that's all you can do. Were they a problem before you removed them?.
Thanks again kd, no problem before I removed them, but then again I only rode the bike 25 miles home before stripping it down haha 😂
I would put it in the category of "it ain't a problem until it's a problem". Run what ya got, if (that's a BIG IF) it becomes an issue, fix it.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on August 19, 2020, 07:12:25 PM
I would put it in the category of "it ain't a problem until it's a problem". Run what ya got, if (that's a BIG IF) it becomes an issue, fix it.
-JW
Yep, that's a good plan. Not like it's going to see 6000rpm very much (maybe now and then of course)... :bike:
With the ev27, would you set the PRs a little deeper into the lifters to reduce noise? Some have suggested an extra few flats of the adjuster nut to tighten things up a bit.
Quote from: Adam76 on August 19, 2020, 03:24:52 PM
Quote from: kd on August 19, 2020, 07:20:20 AM
You can set a variable speed drill with a good chuck up in a vise and check them from both ends if you want also.
Another consideration is the .008 removed from the barrels, .010 from the heads and the .015 difference in the thinner head gasket. This puts the solid pushrods .032 deeper in the lifter when assembled. That would be the same as setting adjustables to .132 instead of .100 deep. That is still workable and some may say preferable but if you haven't already, it is something you may want to consider. Adjustables give you control of that dimension.
Thanks kd, yes I briefly tried the drill method and I don't trust the chuck in my drill as any measure of testing pushrods straighteness 😬
The pushrods I'm taking about in this post are adjustables (not stock) so if I was to replace them I would be replacing adjustables for new adjustables..... Just don't have any experience in looking at pushrods and knowing when they're no longer in great shape and it's time to replace them?
Cheers
It would take some extensive Changes to steer me personally away from Stock Pushrods... Never seen one Fail in any way... adjustables???? Can't say that!!!
Adjustables do occasionally fail, but I don't see it happening in great numbers, there are hundreds of thousands of them out there running around, if it was a major problem, no shops would use them, no reputable vendors would sell them.
Quote from: Hossamania on August 20, 2020, 07:01:45 AM
Adjustables do occasionally fail, but I don't see it happening in great numbers, there are hundreds of thousands of them out there running around, if it was a major problem, no shops would use them, no reputable vendors would sell them.
Same was said about Wavy Washers!!!! LOL
Tho, a Good Quality adjustable Pushrod has proven itself Millions of miles ago... Buyer beware... never seen so many Cheap assed Adjustable pushrods till the Evo guys proved too lazy to remove the Rockers... or... not knowledgeable enough to get the cylinder on "stroke"... not all Mind you... But, Far far too many.. at our shop, then, and to this Day!!!!
Quote from: Adam76 on August 20, 2020, 02:43:46 AM
With the ev27, would you set the PRs a little deeper into the lifters to reduce noise?
When did a EV27 become a noisy cam, never heard one.......
Any noise from the valve train would not be caused by a good EV27. (Damaged?)
Any valve train noise present with an EV27, would likely be present with any cam.
Valve train noise problems can be caused by,
Rocker shafts
pushrod covers
pushrods
lifters
It may not be valve train noise at all.
It may be detonation, an EV27 cam closes the intake valve very early which makes very high cylinder pressures.
Try retarding the spark 2 to 4 degrees and see if the noise changes.
My FXR will detonate until the VOES switches if I get the advance up too high. (sounds like valve noise)
I have never heard of an adjustable "just breaking", but have have seen them fail. In every case that I can think of, it was due to operator error, i.e. not getting the lock nut tight enough. Which then causes them to shorten, start rattling, and if not shut down quick enough, get caught up on the rocker box hole and break. There are a lot of high quality options for adjustable push rods. The only type that I use are the EZ Install kind, else what's the point?
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on August 20, 2020, 08:18:33 AM
I have never heard of an adjustable "just breaking", but have have seen them fail. In every case that I can think of, it was due to operator error, i.e. not getting the lock nut tight enough. Which then causes them to shorten, start rattling, and if not shut down quick enough, get caught up on the rocker box hole and break. There are a lot of high quality options for adjustable push rods. The only type that I use are the EZ Install kind, else what's the point?
-JW
Lets say you are using limiters. You would need to set the depth to match your needs. They wouldn't necessarily need EZ install units. The adjustables that aren't EZ units can be more stable with less possible flex etc. but allow you to control your depth settings.
And the cheap ones??? you can usually pluck them apart at the Adjuster, after use... especially Front Exhaust!!
Quote from: Racepres on August 20, 2020, 07:50:07 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on August 20, 2020, 07:01:45 AM
Adjustables do occasionally fail, but I don't see it happening in great numbers, there are hundreds of thousands of them out there running around, if it was a major problem, no shops would use them, no reputable vendors would sell them.
Same was said about Wavy Washers!!!! LOL
Tho, a Good Quality adjustable Pushrod has proven itself Millions of miles ago... Buyer beware... never seen so many Cheap assed Adjustable pushrods till the Evo guys proved too lazy to remove the Rockers... or... not knowledgeable enough to get the cylinder on "stroke"... not all Mind you... But, Far far too many.. at our shop, then, and to this Day!!!!
LOL.. yes ! Every time I tell somebody I'm going into the cam chest they ask if i already cut my stock push rods out..114,000 mi and they are still doing their job just fine. Hell No. I love my stock push rods. Besides that the only time the aluminum rocker covers get properly polished is when i go into the cam chest or a lifter change.
Like a oil thread :hyst:
Good grief, like Hoss says, almost never hear of a failure. I've got a half million miles on adjustable's, never think about them.
Quote from: Deye76 on August 20, 2020, 12:53:32 PM
Like a oil thread :hyst:
Good grief, like Hoss says, almost never hear of a failure. I've got a half million miles on adjustable's, never think about them.
Experience?????
I have more than that on Ironheads, Shovelheads and Dragbikes... but, I'm saying watch for the cheap "Potty mouth" on Evo parts.. and ... They are Largely Unnecessary...
Unnecessary, sure. But at least 21 less bolts to remove to get the push rods out. That why they're called "Time Savers".
And if the tappets pump up (like they do) and you don't take them apart to get the oil out, could be even more bolts to remove/install to get the push rods back in.
If you enjoy doing that wasted work, more power to ya. Me... hate it, and that is what I see as unnecessary. With EZ Installs, cam or tappets out & in bing-badda-boom.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on August 20, 2020, 02:55:33 PM
Unnecessary, sure. But at least 21 less bolts to remove to get the push rods out. That why they're called "Time Savers".
And if the tappets pump up (like they do) and you don't take them apart to get the oil out, could be even more bolts to remove/install to get the push rods back in.
If you enjoy doing that wasted work, more power to ya. Me... hate it, and that is what I see as unnecessary. With EZ Installs, cam or tappets out & in bing-badda-boom.
-JW
Hey JW, I agree with the convenience of EZ install adjustables.
I know some brands are probably better than others -- how do I tell what brand I have? There are no markings or labels. They are 24 tpi though and the threads, adjuster nuts are black, and the rods themselves were probably black at some point but are now a dull dark grey....
Could they be Crane? If like to know what I'm running.
Thanks
Quote from: Racepres on August 20, 2020, 01:47:13 PM
Quote from: Deye76 on August 20, 2020, 12:53:32 PM
Like a oil thread :hyst:
Good grief, like Hoss says, almost never hear of a failure. I've got a half million miles on adjustable's, never think about them.
Experience?????
I have more than that on Ironheads, Shovelheads and Dragbikes... but, I'm saying watch for the cheap "Potty mouth" on Evo parts.. and ... They are Largely Unnecessary...
Experience you say? Well,...if you were running Shovelheads then you were running adjustable's.
Quote from: Deye76 on August 20, 2020, 04:06:11 PM
Quote from: Racepres on August 20, 2020, 01:47:13 PM
Quote from: Deye76 on August 20, 2020, 12:53:32 PM
Like a oil thread :hyst:
Good grief, like Hoss says, almost never hear of a failure. I've got a half million miles on adjustable's, never think about them.
Experience?????
I have more than that on Ironheads, Shovelheads and Dragbikes... but, I'm saying watch for the cheap "Potty mouth" on Evo parts.. and ... They are Largely Unnecessary...
Experience you say? Well,...if you were running Shovelheads then you were running adjustable's.
:SM: :up:
Looks like these may be the ones I have?
I believe those are Screamin' Eagle. Which is what I have in my TC. Good ca-ca.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on August 20, 2020, 07:02:57 PM
I believe those are Screamin' Eagle. Which is what I have in my TC. Good ca-ca.
-JW
👍 that'll do me. Cheers
Quote from: JW113 on August 20, 2020, 07:02:57 PM
I believe those are Screamin' Eagle. Which is what I have in my TC. Good ca-ca.
-JW
EDIT: mine are 24 tpi and the chart says SE adjustables are 32 tpi??
Four options:
Run them
Order new adjustables
Order new stock pushrods
Assemble, measure, order new custom pushrods
Quote from: Adam76 on August 20, 2020, 07:36:30 PM
Quote from: JW113 on August 20, 2020, 07:02:57 PM
I believe those are Screamin' Eagle. Which is what I have in my TC. Good ca-ca.
-JW
EDIT: mine are 24 tpi and the chart says SE adjustables are 32 tpi??
they made both at one time
Quote from: Hossamania on August 20, 2020, 07:49:15 PM
Four options:
Run them
Order new adjustables
Order new stock pushrods
Assemble, measure, order new custom pushrods
Easy big fella 😁 I am going to run them as previously stated, just was wondering which brand they were for info sake.
I'll shut up now. 👍
Cheers.
Sorry, I get a little wound up!
I've been running the SE adjustables in two different bikes for 150,000 miles with no problems.
Quote from: Hossamania on August 20, 2020, 08:11:44 PM
Sorry, I get a little wound up!
I've been running the SE adjustables in two different bikes for 150,000 miles with no problems.
All good man, always appreciate your input.
who makes the SE push rods ?
Quote from: Deye76 on August 20, 2020, 04:06:11 PM
Quote from: Racepres on August 20, 2020, 01:47:13 PM
Quote from: Deye76 on August 20, 2020, 12:53:32 PM
Like a oil thread :hyst:
Good grief, like Hoss says, almost never hear of a failure. I've got a half million miles on adjustable's, never think about them.
Experience?????
I have more than that on Ironheads, Shovelheads and Dragbikes... but, I'm saying watch for the cheap "Potty mouth" on Evo parts.. and ... They are Largely Unnecessary...
Experience you say? Well,...if you were running Shovelheads then you were running adjustable's.
Really... I just Stated I have More than a Bunch of Miles on Adjustables... I still Do Not see the Advantage on an EVO
But... I don't change "Potty mouth" as often as Some, apparently..
Quote from: Deye76 on August 20, 2020, 12:53:32 PM
Like a oil thread :hyst:
Good grief, like Hoss says, almost never hear of a failure. I've got a half million miles on adjustable's, never think about them.
Yes, turned out a bit like that. But my original post was not a stock vs adjustable pushrod debate, it was about whether I had slightly bent pushrods and whether I should use them or use stock. Funny how things get a little off track 😁
I'm sorted now, case closed. Cheers
What, a technical thread going completely sideways? Never seen that before....
Quote from: Adam76 on August 21, 2020, 06:22:58 AM
Quote from: Deye76 on August 20, 2020, 12:53:32 PM
Like a oil thread :hyst:
Good grief, like Hoss says, almost never hear of a failure. I've got a half million miles on adjustable's, never think about them.
Yes, turned out a bit like that. But my original post was not a stock vs adjustable pushrod debate, it was about whether I had slightly bent pushrods and whether I should use them or use stock. Funny how things get a little off track 😁what was the culprit
I'm sorted now, case closed. Cheers
Ok spin it how you want racepres, but re-read your posts.
Dude, this top end project of your has been going on for ever.
"Yes, turned out a bit like that. But my original post was not a stock vs adjustable pushrod debate, it was about whether I had slightly bent pushrods and whether I should use them or use stock. Funny how things get a little off track 😁"
Let's be honest Adam, you are smart enough to know if you should use "slightly bent pushrods", or not. At roughly a hundred bucks, if you can't do that, owning one of these money pits is not for you. Best regatds.
Oops wrong post.
Thanks everyone for your input.
Quote from: turboprop on August 21, 2020, 05:33:06 PM
Dude, this top end project of your has been going on for ever.
First top end build, want to take it slow and enjoy the process, and there's lots for me to learn along the way. Sorry, probably boring for you gurus 😁
Quote from: Adam76 on August 21, 2020, 05:52:18 PM
Quote from: turboprop on August 21, 2020, 05:33:06 PM
Dude, this top end project of your has been going on for ever.
First top end build, want to take it slow and enjoy the process, and there's lots for me to learn along the way. Sorry, probably boring for you gurus 😁
Is it winter there? Bob
Quote from: FXDBI on August 21, 2020, 05:54:19 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on August 21, 2020, 05:52:18 PM
Quote from: turboprop on August 21, 2020, 05:33:06 PM
Dude, this top end project of your has been going on for ever.
First top end build, want to take it slow and enjoy the process, and there's lots for me to learn along the way. Sorry, probably boring for you gurus 😁
Is it winter there? Bob
Yes sir. It is.....
Yeah, I feel a bit silly posting about my tiny little build that is probably very boring to most of you guys.
Getting the cam chest together now after waiting 2 months for a new pinion shaft oil pump gear. Things from over there take a while to get to us here downunder.... Then heads going back on.
Then starting on the primary with an energy one clutch pack, new cables and bars. Did a bolt on 4 piston Willwood caliper up front that is compatible with the '96 front brake m/c along with a new rotor.
10 week wait on my Thunderheader as well, should be here in a few weeks and then heat cycles, break in and up for a good tune.
Looking good Adam. Your doing a fine job, from the pics. :up:
Quote from: Deye76 on August 22, 2020, 06:21:03 AM
Looking good Adam. Your doing a fine job, from the pics. :up:
Cheers. Not without the help of the generous folk here. 👍
I hope you guys have had a decent riding season over there.
Quote from: Deye76 on August 21, 2020, 05:36:03 PM
Let's be honest Adam, you are smart enough to know if you should use "slightly bent pushrods", or not. At roughly a hundred bucks, if you can't do that, owning one of these money pits is not for you. Best regatds.
Things are a bit different Down Under
We pay twice as much for parts and wait a couple of weeks for them to turn up
They were going ok before dissassembly, some have said run them
If it was me, I would consider using a slightly bent pushrod (depending how bad) to do the heat cycles , maybe even break-in up to 3500 rpm while I was waiting for the parts to turn up
Don't see the reason for the attitude
Quote from: turboprop on August 21, 2020, 05:33:06 PM
Dude, this top end project of your has been going on for ever.
You need someone to change the tv channel at home for you ?
Quote from: 98fxstc on August 22, 2020, 06:51:22 AM
Quote from: turboprop on August 21, 2020, 05:33:06 PM
Dude, this top end project of your has been going on for ever.
You need someone to change the tv channel at home for you ?
You Cats from down yonder are a rather rude lot...huh??
Luckily the Folks I met from W.A. VMC were a blast....
BTW
Quote from: Adam76 on August 21, 2020, 06:22:58 AM
Quote from: Deye76 on August 20, 2020, 12:53:32 PM
Like a oil thread :hyst:
Good grief, like Hoss says, almost never hear of a failure. I've got a half million miles on adjustable's, never think about them.
Yes, turned out a bit like that. But my original post was not a stock vs adjustable pushrod debate, it was about whether I had slightly bent pushrods and whether I should use them or use stock. Funny how things get a little off track 😁
I'm sorted now, case closed. Cheers
My response was "Nothing wrong with Stock"
No Worries tho... I shall refrain...
Quote from: 98fxstc on August 22, 2020, 06:48:20 AM
Quote from: Deye76 on August 21, 2020, 05:36:03 PM
"Yes, turned out a bit like that. But my original post was not a stock vs adjustable pushrod debate, it was about whether I had slightly bent pushrods and whether I should use them or use stock. Funny how things get a little off track 😁"
Let's be honest Adam, you are smart enough to know if you should use "slightly bent pushrods", or not. At roughly a hundred bucks, if you can't do that, owning one of these money pits is not for you. Best regatds.
Things are a bit different Down Under
We pay twice as much for parts and wait a couple of weeks for them to turn up
They were going ok before dissassembly, some have said run them
If it was me, I would consider using a slightly bent pushrod (depending how bad) to do the heat cycles , maybe even break-in up to 3500 rpm while I was waiting for the parts to turn up
Don't see the reason for the attitude
Seriously guys I need to see the record straight.
Read my first two posts.. or clearly states that
I did NOT KNOW if I had bent PRs or not, and what the best way to tell if I did? I asked what a bent PR looked like, how many thou out of round is acceptable.
I never stated that I had bent ones...If I knew that were bent, this thread wouldn't exist.
I don't appreciate the attitude either. I'm not blessed with the experience and knowledge most of you have and isn't that what this is all about?
I even support the site, if that tells you anything about my gratitude and respect.
Quote from: Racepres on August 22, 2020, 06:54:48 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on August 22, 2020, 06:51:22 AM
Quote from: turboprop on August 21, 2020, 05:33:06 PM
Dude, this top end project of your has been going on for ever.
You need someone to change the tv channel at home for you ?
You Cats from down yonder are a rather rude lot...huh??
Luckily the Folks I met from W.A. VMC were a blast....
Not at all
OP is looking for a bit of advice
Also a Site Supporter, contributing to the running costs of the site, some don't bother
quite a few here with different levels of knowledge and experience
Easy to move on if not interested, rather than post with attitude
Quote from: Racepres on August 22, 2020, 06:54:48 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on August 22, 2020, 06:51:22 AM
Quote from: turboprop on August 21, 2020, 05:33:06 PM
Dude, this top end project of your has been going on for ever.
You need someone to change the tv channel at home for you ?
You Cats from down yonder are a rather rude lot...huh??
Luckily the Folks I met from W.A. VMC were a blast....
BTW
Quote from: Adam76 on August 21, 2020, 06:22:58 AM
Quote from: Deye76 on August 20, 2020, 12:53:32 PM
Like a oil thread :hyst:
Good grief, like Hoss says, almost never hear of a failure. I've got a half million miles on adjustable's, never think about them.
Yes, turned out a bit like that. But my original post was not a stock vs adjustable pushrod debate, it was about whether I had slightly bent pushrods and whether I should use them or use stock. Funny how things get a little off track 😁
I'm sorted now, case closed. Cheers
My response was "Nothing wrong with Stock"
No Worries tho... I shall refrain...
Hmmmm..... where have I been rude Racepress?
Been very grateful actually.
Quote from: Adam76 on August 22, 2020, 07:05:38 AM
Hmmmm..... where have I been rude Racepress?
Been very grateful actually.
Not Directed at You
Apologies if it came off that way...
Tho All have Ignored that I truly Did respond to the original Question...
look at the Quotes!!!
OK tho... Not the first time tech has been Rejected here at HTT
See what you started Adam? A simple pushrod question and the masses start fighting in the street. Heaven help us when the question of break-in oil gets asked!
Quote from: Hossamania on August 22, 2020, 07:20:51 AM
See what you started Adam? A simple pushrod question and the masses start fighting in the street. Heaven help us when the question of break-in oil gets asked!
Johnsons baby oil????
Quote from: Hossamania on August 22, 2020, 07:20:51 AM
See what you started Adam? A simple pushrod question and the masses start fighting in the street. Heaven help us when the question of break-in oil gets asked!
Heaven hep us indeed. I won't be posting anymore questions for a while I think, this one turned into a bit of a train wreck. 😮
It really did! Reminds me of "The Quiet Man" with John Wayne, it anyone has ever seen it. The big fight builds throughout the whole movie, and finally happens, a great fight scene. At one point, everybody watching the fight, having been waiting so long for it to happen, gets so wound up, they start fighting too, a complete melee ensues. Finally a gun is fired a couple times into the ground to get everyone's attention, and the announcement made, "This is to be kept between the two principles, if you don't mind!". Everyone looks around a little sheepishly, and the fight resumes where it left off.
I think of that scene often when things go sideways.
Adam, just use a personal filter, meaning don't feel you need to respond to anything that isn't related to what question you asked. It's all good, we all started at the beginning at one point in our lives. Everyone here has the right to post, as well as has the right to not respond.
Take your time, learn, do the job once. :chop:
If I came off as negative, apologies, not my intention. Hell, I have a lot to learn myself, and do everyday. There are a lot of guys here, that know Evo's inside out, and give good advice. But sometimes the questions in a thread become redundant, and pointing them out, at least from where I sit, is innocent. When responding I should look at where the poster lives, as 98fxstc points out, it makes a difference. I do have a attitude when one guy continuously has to point his experience as superior over others. Not Adam. As for site support, that has nothing to do with this thread.
Damn, anyone else getting cranky and irritable from this shelter in place thing?
:banghead:
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on August 22, 2020, 03:47:13 PM
Damn, anyone else getting cranky and irritable from this shelter in place thing?
:banghead:
-JW
Maybe...
Quote from: Deye76 on August 22, 2020, 02:58:24 PM
If I came off as negative, apologies, not my intention. Hell, I have a lot to learn myself, and do everyday. There are a lot of guys here, that know Evo's inside out, and give good advice. But sometimes the questions in a thread become redundant, and pointing them out, at least from where I sit, is innocent. When responding I should look at where the poster lives, as 98fxstc points out, it makes a difference. I do have a attitude when one guy continuously has to point his experience as superior over others. Not Adam. As for site support, that has nothing to do with this thread.
Yes, agreed, and well said. And when the original question becomes redundant it morphs into a different question like - should I use bent pushrods or replace them? or adjustable vs stock pushrods?
Then things get a little off track.
All good, l do use this site because I like the respect and integrity that the folks here have. Thumbs up to that. 👍
Adam76 :up:
Take as long as you like doing the job it's not a race it's all about doing it properly.
I did a primary / tranny full seal replacement the other day and the shop quoted him 8 hours labour.
I took my time and did it over 5 days and saved him $900.
Never a need to be in a rush.
QuoteNever a need to be in a rush
certainly not in this COVID time
Quote from: FSG on August 23, 2020, 01:56:03 AM
QuoteNever a need to be in a rush
certainly not in this COVID time
Yep, got that right...
With the ev27 cam, do you know anything about adding a little more lift with 1.7 ratio rockers? Maybe intake side only?
I've had the heads cleaned up, valve job, squish set and 9,6 comp with forged pistons.
Thanks.
Almost certain it won't make any difference that you could tell or measure.
-JW
Adam, you've been a bit quiet. Any progress on your project?
:missed:
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on October 11, 2020, 10:42:51 AM
Adam, you've been a bit quiet. Any progress on your project?
:missed:
-JW
Hey JW, Yes been pretty quiet this end. Injured a disc in my back so been out of action for a while. Also been waiting on a proper full size bike lift to arrive so that I'm not bending over to work on it or lying on the ground so much :idea:
Don't know why I didn't get one of these before I started the build....
Anyways, should be finishing off in the camchest in the next few days just have to check the clearances and then installing lifters and lifter blocks and the dropping the cylinders back on after having 8 thou off the bases to give me zero deck height. 👍
Looking good Adam :up: :up:
Quote from: thunderrat on October 12, 2020, 06:29:24 PM
Looking good Adam :up: :up:
Thanks 👍
Got the cam in and ended up needing to use the .065" shim that was already in there from the previous Andrews cam... Installed the new Ultima breather gear, ended up getting hold of an .118" metal shim for that, lined up all the marks and buttoned the cover up.
Installed the lifters and tappet blocks which was interesting to do without the little magnet tool that holds the lifters from falling into the camchest, but got it eventually.
Next is installation of the new clutch cable and put the controls back up on the bars so that I can shift gears. I have it in first at the moment from getting it off the old lift and onto the new full size hoist, so I need a way to get it back into 5th gear so I can put the cylinders back down over the pistons and heads on to check PTV clearance. Something I've never done before so looking forward to that, but progress is slow at the moment with a lot going on.
Pretty boring stuff for most you guys I know... 😁
Cheers.
Just curious, why do you need controls on the bars to shift the transmission?
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on October 19, 2020, 11:15:20 AM
Just curious, why do you need controls on the bars to shift the transmission?
-JW
I need to get the trans from 1st to fifth, and I don't want to keep addicting the trans manually with no clutch cable - my clutch cable was removed and haven't installed the new one yet.
How can I safely shift the trans up to 5th without the clutch?
Thanks
If the motor is not running, just shift it. You will probably have to turn the rear wheel back and forth just a bit to get it to shift thru the gears, but it should shift.
Thanks Hossamania, that's good to know 👍 saves me having to hook up the clutch cable etc... Now I can get those cylinders on.
Cheers
I thought
Absolutely not necessary to pull the clutch to shift gears if the motor is not running, and absolutely will not hurt anything. What does help is to have the rear wheel off the ground, and turn it while you're changing gears.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on October 19, 2020, 07:24:24 PM
Absolutely not necessary to pull the clutch to shift gears if the motor is not running, and absolutely will not hurt anything. What does help is to have the rear wheel off the ground, and turn it while you're changing gears.
-JW
Thanks JW. Back in 5th gear, easy no probs. Cylinders back on. Cheers.
Heads are now on, made more progress today than I thought 😁
Even with my calculations, and machining the cylinder bases I still somehow ended up .005" in the hole with the pistons. Oh well, better being a little under than a little over.
Thanks again for the help guys.
Now it's getting exciting!
Indeed! Can almost smell that first start up.
-JW
Probably too late now if you don't have them on hand
0.030" gaskets would be the go if you are 0.005" in the hole
I think I recall you decided on 0.036" with zero deck
Quote from: 98fxstc on October 20, 2020, 02:03:05 PM
Probably too late now if you don't have them on hand
0.030" gaskets would be the go if you are 0.005" in the hole
I think I recall you decided on 0.036" with zero deck
And a .027 Cometic will put you the equivilant af .002 in the hole. A barely measurable difference.
Congrats on your build.
Not doubting your numbers, just 1 question. You said "Even with my calculations, and machining the cylinder bases I still somehow ended up .005" in the hole with the pistons." How much was taken off the cylinders and what base gasket did you use. Guess that's 2 questions.
I'm looking at the same build and when I run the numbers I come up with .005 in the hole with a .020 base gasket and stock length cylinders
Quote from: Adam76 on October 19, 2020, 10:09:58 PM
Heads are now on, made more progress today than I thought 😁
Even with my calculations, and machining the cylinder bases I still somehow ended up .005" in the hole with the pistons. Oh well, better being a little under than a little over.
Thanks again for the help guys.
Of course if you are anal like some of us, now is the time to slip the barrels off and give them a trim. In reality, you can measure and calculate all you want, but the proof is checking it during assembly. Now you can choose to fix it easily or later .......
Leave it. Classic case of too much info that won't make a bit of difference how your bike will run.
In my opinion, that is...
:SM:
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on October 21, 2020, 09:14:52 AM
Leave it. Classic case of too much info that won't make a bit of difference how your bike will run.
In my opinion, that is...
:SM:
-JW
I tend to agree with this, you're not building a high strung every 100th of a second counts track bike, this a good running reliable street bike that will be ridden daily and bring a smile every time. You e already gone further with the work you've done than most would. Get it back together, fire it up, do some tuning, and enjoy!
Quote from: 04rkryder on October 20, 2020, 02:53:09 PM
Congrats on your build.
Not doubting your numbers, just 1 question. You said "Even with my calculations, and machining the cylinder bases I still somehow ended up .005" in the hole with the pistons." How much was taken off the cylinders and what base gasket did you use. Guess that's 2 questions.
I'm looking at the same build and when I run the numbers I come up with .005 in the hole with a .020 base gasket and stock length cylinders
Ok cool. So I used .020 Cometic base gaskets and I took .008 off the bases to get to what I had thought was going to be zero deck height or just under by one or two thou.... but I made the mistake of checking deck height without the cyl base gaskets installed and used an assumption of the gasket thickness in my final equation instead of the real thing by actually checking it properly.... I reckon I was off by 3 or 4 thou so don't make the same mistake! Bolt everything up properly and take your time with the measurements. Good luck with the build.
Quote from: Hossamania on October 21, 2020, 12:03:46 PM
Quote from: JW113 on October 21, 2020, 09:14:52 AM
Leave it. Classic case of too much info that won't make a bit of difference how your bike will run.
In my opinion, that is...
:SM:
-JW
I tend to agree with this, you're not building a high strung every 100th of a second counts track bike, this a good running reliable street bike that will be ridden daily and bring a smile every time. You e already gone further with the work you've done than most would. Get it back together, fire it up, do some tuning, and enjoy!
Thanks JW and Hossamania, I should have been more clear in my post that I have no intention at all of pulling the jugs again for more machining 😂 I was just pointing out that I was a little lazy in my measurements and calculations for deck height and it resulted in being a little further down the hole than I was aiming for. No big deal at all for this build.
Yes, I used a .030 Cometic HG and it's all buttoned up now. 👍
Quote from: 98fxstc on October 20, 2020, 02:03:05 PM
Probably too late now if you don't have them on hand
0.030" gaskets would be the go if you are 0.005" in the hole
I think I recall you decided on 0.036" with zero deck
Hey 98, Yes I did use .030 Cometic HGs and ended up with a squish of. 035 which is really not that far off the mark, so all should be well. I really do not want to spend anymore time or money on this part of the build..... For starters, I can't find me a set of nice slip on mufflers anywhere!!? Dynas yes, but seems like no one makes performance slip on mufflers for evo heritage softails?? All I want is a nice set of tapered turbo slip ons for my factory header pipe with the cross over. Anyways, moving along.
Cheers
Hey guys, I'm installing the pushrods and have a question about TDCC - I seem to be having a little trouble with whether I'm on the compression cycle or not with my TDC...
Rotating the rear wheel until I feel the puff of air out of the spark plug hole tells me the front piston is/ has risen to the top of the cylinder, but that happens twice for one full cycle, right?
I'm getting the puff of air each time the piston rises, so how do I know which compression cycle to stop at to make the pushrod adjustments for that (front) cylinder?
In other words, theoretically where would the rear piston be sitting in the rear cylinder when the front cylinder is at TDCC stroke? Closer to the top of the cylinder or further down the hole?
Also, if the front cyl lifters look like they're sitting on the base circle of the cam, and the rear ones are not, then is that TDCC for the front?
Thanks for any help, I hope that made sense :scratch:
Watch your intake lifter.When it goes up your piston is dropping on intake stroke.Next the lifter will go down.When it is down your piston is rising on the compression stroke.Dont turn it too far but if you do you have to go around again.Dont turn the crank backwards.
Quote from: Adam76 on November 17, 2020, 10:57:48 PM
Hey guys, I'm installing the pushrods and have a question about TDCC - I seem to be having a little trouble with whether I'm on the compression cycle or not with my TDC...
Doesn't make a difference as long as the lifter is on the base of the cam when the pushrod is being adjusted.
The fail proof way is when one valve is open on each cylinder (pushrod in the up position) the other will be on the base circle and can be adjusted. For example the rear exhaust in your pic is ready to be adjusted. Just pay attention or make a note or score card of which ones are adjusted as you go so as to not miss any or don't install the pushrod until it looks like the rear exhaust comparison I point out. With solids it was always a quick and easy way to do it but with hydraulic you still have to wait for bleed down before rotating the engine to the next candidate.
Quote from: kd on November 18, 2020, 07:55:13 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on November 17, 2020, 10:57:48 PM
Hey guys, I'm installing the pushrods and have a question about TDCC - I seem to be having a little trouble with whether I'm on the compression cycle or not with my TDC...
Rotating the rear wheel until I feel the puff of air out of the spark plug hole tells me the front piston is/ has risen to the top of the cylinder, but that happens twice for one full cycle, right?
I'm getting the puff of air each time the piston rises, so how do I know which compression cycle to stop at to make the pushrod adjustments for that (front) cylinder?
In other words, theoretically where would the rear piston be sitting in the rear cylinder when the front cylinder is at TDCC stroke? Closer to the top of the cylinder or further down the hole?
Also, if the front cyl lifters look like they're sitting on the base circle of the cam, and the rear ones are not, then is that TDCC for the front?
Thanks for any help, I hope that made sense :scratch:
The fail proof way is when one valve is open on each cylinder (pushrod in the up position) the other will be on the base circle and can be adjusted. For example the rear exhaust in your pic is ready to be adjusted. Just pay attention or make a note or score card of which ones are adjusted as you go so as to not miss any or don't install the pushrod until it looks like the rear exhaust comparison I point out. with solids it was always a quick and easy way to do it but with hydraulic you still have to wait for bleed down before rotating the engine to the next candidate.
that's what I did, well the Old Crow did when fixing what a Indy messed up and so far :up: :up:
I rotate it until both lifters for one cylinder are at the bottom
On one cylinder when the exhaust just starts to open, set the intake, and when the intake just closes, set the exhaust.
My three cents worth....
https://www.sscycle.com/tech-info/pushrod-adjustment
Quote from: Ohio HD on November 18, 2020, 10:54:12 AM
My three cents worth....
https://www.sscycle.com/tech-info/pushrod-adjustment
Those are good instructions. One caution that I think needs to be stated is in step 3 (and step 4 & 5 for limiters) turning the pushrod before the jam nut is locked must be done with care. The internal resistance makes it possible for the adjuster screw to back off or load tighter. I like to lightly snug the jam nut first to prevent that from happening.
As a side comment, when using limiters being set to one flat of bottom, even more care is suggested. Be sure the engine is cold to the core so the cylinder head and barrel stack height is not expanded from heat. Remember that when the jamb nut is tightened, it pulls the internal threads "outward" effectively making the pushrod slightly longer. For that reason I choose up to almost 2 flats. That way with a cold engine (non expanded cylinders) the valve won't be held off it's seat. This condition can effect starting compression.
Quote from: Hossamania on November 18, 2020, 09:28:29 AM
I rotate it until both lifters for one cylinder are at the bottom
Thanks Hoss, this is where I'm at with the front cylinder, both lifters sitting on the case circle of the cam. So I'll adjust these and then move onto the rear.
I guess I'm over thinking it. :doh:
Quote from: turboprop on November 18, 2020, 05:49:08 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on November 17, 2020, 10:57:48 PM
Hey guys, I'm installing the pushrods and have a question about TDCC - I seem to be having a little trouble with whether I'm on the compression cycle or not with my TDC...
Doesn't make a difference as long as the lifter is on the base of the cam when the pushrod is being adjusted.
Thanks turbo. This is what I thought. I guess I was over thinking the whole process. 😁
Quote from: Ohio HD on November 18, 2020, 10:54:12 AM
My three cents worth....
https://www.sscycle.com/tech-info/pushrod-adjustment
Thanks Ohio, I'll go through this again carefully.
Cheers. 👍
Quote from: Burnout on November 18, 2020, 10:49:43 AM
On one cylinder when the exhaust just starts to open, set the intake, and when the intake just closes, set the exhaust.
Thanks burnout, that method sounds good, but without being able to actually see the valves and whether they are opening or closing I don't trust myself with this method. Unless there is a trick I'm missing. My intake manifold has already been re- installed so it blocks the ability to see into the heads.
You are making this harder than it needs to be. With the pushrod tubes raised, simply rotate the engine until the pushrod you want to adjust starts to go up. Then rotate the engine in the reverse direction until that pushrods starts to go up. Now rotate the engine in the opposite direction and stop about half way between the two points. This does not have to be exact. Just make sure the lifter is on the base of the cam. Lots of room here. Adjust that pushrod and then do another until all four are done. You could have adjusted a pushrod in the amount of time it took to type this response.
Quote from: turboprop on November 18, 2020, 03:02:14 PM
You are making this harder than it needs to be. With the pushrod tubes raised, simply rotate the engine until the pushrod you want to adjust starts to go up. Then rotate the engine in the reverse direction until that pushrods starts to go up. Now rotate the engine in the opposite direction and stop about half way between the two points. This does not have to be exact. Just make sure the lifter is on the base of the cam. Lots of room here. Adjust that pushrod and then do another until all four are done. You could have adjusted a pushrod in the amount of time it took to type this response.
Rodger that. 😁
Thanks guys, all adjusted and buttoned up. :up:
Do you guys recommend the slight drilling of the rocker box oil drain hole - drilling it one size drill bit up from the stock size, for higher than stock compression builds? It's mentioned in the 101 performance projects book.... Thought I'd ask before I finish installing the rocker boxes.
Cheers.
Drilling that hole out (.125") requires the rocker stands to be removed. Re-drilling (and chamfering the top of the new hole) is definitely a recommended practice and now is your chance to get it done. Speaking of practice, it looks like you'll be getting some reinstalling and adjusting pushrods. :doh:
did you drill out the top of those upper PR tubes?
did you fit any rocker lockers?
Quote from: kd on November 19, 2020, 07:13:13 AM
Drilling that hole out (.125") requires the rocker stands to be removed. Re-drilling (and chamfering the top of the new hole) is definitely a recommended practice and now is your chance to get it done. Speaking of practice, it looks like you'll be getting some reinstalling and adjusting pushrods. :doh:
Thanks kd, book didn't mention anything about removing the rocker stands, I just have only the lower rocker box installed as per picture with the middle d- rings and top cover still on the bench.
Yes, I have had plenty of practice on adjusting PRs now 😁
Quote from: FSG on November 19, 2020, 08:59:10 AM
did you drill out the top of those upper PR tubes?
did you fit any rocker lockers?
Hey FSG, no I haven't drilled out the top of the PRs, and no I haven't got rocker lockers.
Are these a must do?
Thanks.
No NOT a must do BUT I'd sure bee opening up the tops of the RP Tubes, just so easy to do
Quote from: FSG on November 19, 2020, 02:58:24 PM
No NOT a must do BUT I'd sure bee opening up the tops of the RP Tubes, just so easy to do
Ok, thanks. 👍
Quote from: Adam76 on November 19, 2020, 02:36:59 PM
Quote from: kd on November 19, 2020, 07:13:13 AM
Drilling that hole out (.125") requires the rocker stands to be removed. Re-drilling (and chamfering the top of the new hole) is definitely a recommended practice and now is your chance to get it done. Speaking of practice, it looks like you'll be getting some reinstalling and adjusting pushrods. :doh:
Thanks kd, book didn't mention anything about removing the rocker stands, I just have only the lower rocker box installed as per picture with the middle d- rings and top cover still on the bench.
Yes, I have had plenty of practice on adjusting PRs now 😁
Even if you can drill them in place the risk of aluminum chips disappearing into the engine would be more than I would like. When you remove them you can check the fasteners for marks from the type of rocker shaft contact that lockers are made to prevent. No marks = no problemo. :wink: When you reinstall them (with the pushrods in place) you can position them to best center the pushrods in the pushrod tubes and on the valve stem tips.
Quote from: kd on November 19, 2020, 03:20:13 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on November 19, 2020, 02:36:59 PM
Quote from: kd on November 19, 2020, 07:13:13 AM
Drilling that hole out (.125") requires the rocker stands to be removed. Re-drilling (and chamfering the top of the new hole) is definitely a recommended practice and now is your chance to get it done. Speaking of practice, it looks like you'll be getting some reinstalling and adjusting pushrods. :doh:
Thanks kd, book didn't mention anything about removing the rocker stands, I just have only the lower rocker box installed as per picture with the middle d- rings and top cover still on the bench.
Yes, I have had plenty of practice on adjusting PRs now 😁
Even if you can drill them in place the risk of aluminum chips disappearing into the engine would be more than I would like. When you remove them you can check the fasteners for marks from the type of rocker shaft contact that lockers are made to prevent. No marks = no problemo. :wink: When you reinstall them (with the pushrods in place) you can position them to best center the pushrods in the pushrod tubes and on the valve stem tips.
Thanks, the rocker arms and fasteners had no marks on them that I could see when I had removed them and reinstalled them. Even checking rocker am clearances - they were right on the perfect end of the tolerance listed in the FSM...
I think I'll give that whole thing oil breather modification a miss at this stage and just reinstall the middle and top rocker covers. I'm pretty keen to get the top end all back together, the carb back on and get this motor running. So close now
Quote from: FSG on November 19, 2020, 02:58:24 PM
No NOT a must do BUT I'd sure bee opening up the tops of the RP Tubes, just so easy to do
I haven't done it, but if you were to do it - what's the correct method? How do you not get metal shavings down inside the top of the PR as you are enlarging the hole? :scratch:
you have to remove the PR Tubes from the engine, chuck up the upper tube in a lathe or drill press vise then bore or drill
all upper tubes that I've come across, even those from S&S are distorted at the top from when the tube was compressed to provide the land for the O-Ring
(https://i.imgur.com/lheNvkd.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/bdliAEn.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/2iPxhdy.png)
Pull the pushrods, chuck the tops of the tubes in a lathe and pass a 5/8" drill bit about an inch or so into the top end, done. Re-assemble. While you have the pushrods out, lift out the rocker stands and drill / chamfer the drain hole. :teeth: :wink:
added later
I see FSG responded with his as usual excellent information. I'll post this any way.
I've also trimmed them down at the top so there's no excessive protrusion into the head
every little bit of clearance adds up to being good
kd cheers :up:
(https://i.imgur.com/Z15Js0d.jpg)
Ah, thanks. I see what you mean now. For some reason, because we were talking about opening up the oil breather hole in the rocker box, I thought you had meant opening up the hole at the tip of the PR itself 😂😂
Then I was thinking, hmmm how's that going to work.
Moving right along.
Idefinitely think what you're suggesting is great info, but I've just finished putting the rocker covers on and things are progressing. I may end up taking them off again if I decide to do the tube mod.
Man that rear evo softail rocker cover is a job to get back in there without dripping the engine a little.
QuoteMoving right along.
:up: put it on your list of things to do in the future :SM:
Quote from: FSG on November 19, 2020, 10:43:35 PM
I've also trimmed them down at the top so there's no excessive protrusion into the head
every little bit of clearance adds up to being good
kd cheers :up:
(https://i.imgur.com/Z15Js0d.jpg)
Thanks FSG, appreciate the pictures as well. Makes good sense and I'll definitley put it on the list for another day. 👍
All good advice, no doubt. But we are talking EV-27, a tic more than stock cam. Really?
I know I sound like a broken record player stuck in a groove. Adam, don't over think this crap. Build it, and sort it out later, if need be. It sounds to me like you are really going to enjoy the end result, a reliable and fun to ride machine. Looking forward to tossing back a cold one when you get this critter together and running. We are headed into winter here, but you blokes are facing summer. Get 'er done!
:beer:
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on November 20, 2020, 06:38:42 PM
All good advice, no doubt. But we are talking EV-27, a tic more than stock cam. Really?
I know I sound like a broken record player stuck in a groove. Adam, don't over think this crap. Build it, and sort it out later, if need be. It sounds to me like you are really going to enjoy the end result, a reliable and fun to ride machine. Looking forward to tossing back a cold one when you get this critter together and running. We are headed into winter here, but you blokes are facing summer. Get 'er done!
:beer:
-JW
Thanks JW, yes I'll be cracking a cold one as soon as I get this bike up and running.
Yes you do sound like a broken record 😁 in a good way of course. I am keeping it simple, as you can see by my last post, I just finished correctly adjusting the PRs, put the stock rocker covers back on with the stock PR covers.
Just finished putting the new clutch in, next is the carb and breather gear, fuel tank, ignition and exhaust.
Almost there, thanks for the help. 👍
I went into a lot of detail here about my build and ended up using a Woods cam as per Hillside's recommendation. Even with 590 lift I don't have pushrod tube problems.
Hey guys,
Starting reinstallation of fuel and ignition, and was wondering what a good base setting is for my Dyna2000i ignition and single fire blue streak coil.
There are the 4 different advance curves but with the instructions my build could fit a few of the curves- not very clear?
Voes off?
Adv curve 1 or maybe curve 4?
Also, I found a local company here in Melbourne that had been manufacturing their own Harley mufflers for 20 years, especially for the evils and shovels.
I ordered a set and the fit and finish is great but looking through the internal muffler body it seems super restrictive. I've posted a pic from the header pipe and muffler tip ends for you to have a look at and advise me on whether these restrictive baffle design is going to hurt my performance. I've come this far in the performance area - dome forged pistons, mild headwork, compression, ev27 cam etc... don't want a poor exhaust muffler letting me down.
Thanks for any tips👍
Those look similar to the original Cycle Shack baffles, that worked extremely well in Evo builds. I'd bet they'll be good.
What size is the diameter of the actual baffle? The inlet end appears to have the equivalent of a simple lollipop device. (BTW it looks to me like the one weld could use a touch up.) The lollipop device is a proven defense against low rpm torque loss in a free flowing exhaust like drag pipes. I'm with rigidthumper. It appears to to me to be way less restrictive than the stock units so the device will be helpful (and somewhat tunable).
Quote from: rigidthumper on November 24, 2020, 07:08:56 AM
Those look similar to the original Cycle Shack baffles, that worked extremely well in Evo builds. I'd bet they'll be good.
Ok, thanks for the feedback. 👍
I was a little disappointed when I received them, but if they have a design liked the cycle shack mufflers then they should be fine From what I've read, the CS mufflers were excellent performers.
Do you think I should open them up just a touch? Or leave the baffle as it is?
Cheers
Quote from: kd on November 24, 2020, 07:25:05 AM
What size is the diameter of the actual baffle? The inlet end appears to have the equivalent of a simple lollipop device. (BTW it looks to me like the one weld could use a touch up.) The lollipop device is a proven defense against low rpm torque loss in a free flowing exhaust like drag pipes. I'm with rigidthumper. It appears to to me to be way less restrictive than the stock units so the device will be helpful (and somewhat tunable).
I'm not sure, but I'll measure the
size of the internal baffles late today. 👍
Quote from: Adam76 on November 24, 2020, 02:52:13 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on November 24, 2020, 07:08:56 AM
Those look similar to the original Cycle Shack baffles, that worked extremely well in Evo builds. I'd bet they'll be good.
Ok, thanks for the feedback. 👍
I was a little disappointed when I received them, but if they have a design liked the cycle shack mufflers then they should be fine From what I've read, the CS mufflers were excellent performers.
Do you think I should open them up just a touch? Or leave the baffle as it is?
Cheers
Use them as is to start, modify as necessary. Don't make wholesale changes before even firing up the motor. Get it running, heat cycle it a few times, change oil, and start tuning. Again, don't make wholesale changes, change little things one at a time.
Quote from: Hossamania on November 24, 2020, 03:07:00 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on November 24, 2020, 02:52:13 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on November 24, 2020, 07:08:56 AM
Those look similar to the original Cycle Shack baffles, that worked extremely well in Evo builds. I'd bet they'll be good.
Ok, thanks for the feedback. 👍
I was a little disappointed when I received them, but if they have a design liked the cycle shack mufflers then they should be fine From what I've read, the CS mufflers were excellent performers.
Do you think I should open them up just a touch? Or leave the baffle as it is?
Cheers
Use them as is to start, modify as necessary. Don't make wholesale changes before even firing up the motor. Get it running, heat cycle it a few times, change oil, and start tuning. Again, don't make wholesale changes, change little things one at a time.
Thanks Hoss, will do that. 👍
Agree, those look very Cycle-Shack-like. Should work very well.
-JW
Things are really starting to moved along now, very exciting.
I've hooked up the Ultima 2000i, new cool, plugs and leads.
I have left the violet and the green wires in place but not connected -- because I don't have a tacho and I'm not using VOES.
Am I right in not using voes at all? Or should this be connected?
And what settings would you suggest I start with? Curve 3 is for mildly modified motors, if I'm reading the instructions right...
Just need to get it near enough, as it's getting a professional tune as soon as the engine is run in.
Thanks for the help. 👍
Curve 2 or 3 but I recommend using a VOES but that's me.
Quote from: Scotty on November 26, 2020, 11:56:47 PM
Curve 2 or 3 but I recommend using a VOES but that's me.
Thanks Scotty, I'll look into how to set up Voes.
Cheers 👍
Made a little more progress yesterday. Got the dyna 2000i and new coil installed and the wiring done. Had to go back in to hook the VOES back up. I haven't tested the switch, but I'm assuming it's still working. Got the carb back on, had a little trouble with the breather tube that runs up and over the carb - they don't like mikuni carbs apparently and had to hacksaw the top piece and run a hose in order to get the clearance needed.
I have the tank and new fuels lines and refurbished petcock ready for install.
You can actually get the banjo bits that go from the breather individually and run straight down and tee them up under the carb and run the hose to the ground. With yours currently since you already cut it just cut both sides evenly and point them downwards and do the same although you will have to block the double one off in one vent.
Also the mikuni is already tight under the tank I wonder if your breather will be rubbing on the tank if you leave it like that.
[attach=0,msg1370111]
Quote from: Scotty on December 02, 2020, 10:38:40 AM
You can actually get the banjo bits that go from the breather individually and run straight down and tee them up under the carb and run the hose to the ground. With yours currently since you already cut it just cut both sides evenly and point them downwards and do the same although you will have to block the double one off in one vent.
Also the mikuni is already tight under the tank I wonder if your breather will be rubbing on the tank if you leave it like that.
[attach=0,msg1370111]
Thanks Scotty, that's a great idea.
I want really happy with the way the breather tube turned out.
EasyR has them. 👍
No, you don't run the hose to the backing plate. Plug the hole in the plate (make sure whatever you use doesn't come loose and get sucked into the carb!). I used a bolt and two nuts, red loctite.
Run the two hoses down around the bottom of the carb, tee them together, extend a single hose to the ground.
This keeps the carb from sucking the oil mist from the motor into the carb and getting it gunked up, and helps keep carbon from building up on the pistons.
Do a search here, there are a bunch of threads on how to do it. People also use catch cans to collect the water and oil blow-by.
Quote from: Hossamania on December 02, 2020, 02:55:20 PM
No, you don't run the hose to the backing plate. Plug the hole in the plate (make sure whatever you use doesn't come loose and get sucked into the carb!). I used a bolt and two nuts, red loctite.
Run the two hoses down around the bottom of the carb, tee them together, extend a single hose to the ground.
This keeps the carb from sucking the oil mist from the motor into the carb and getting it gunked up, and helps keep carbon from building up on the pistons.
Do a search here, there are a bunch of threads on how to do it. People also use catch cans to collect the water and oil blow-by.
Thanks Hoss, I'll check it out.
Cheers 👍
Quote from: Hossamania on December 02, 2020, 02:55:20 PM
No, you don't run the hose to the backing plate. Plug the hole in the plate (make sure whatever you use doesn't come loose and get sucked into the carb!). I used a bolt and two nuts, red loctite.
Run the two hoses down around the bottom of the carb, tee them together, extend a single hose to the ground.
This keeps the carb from sucking the oil mist from the motor into the carb and getting it gunked up, and helps keep carbon from building up on the pistons.
Do a search here, there are a bunch of threads on how to do it. People also use catch cans to collect the water and oil blow-by.
:up: that's kinda how I did the Sporty, but instead of teeing i connected one of those breather filters under the carb conencted in the middle, but the same idea - the Springer I did something like what you suggest works well
Quote from: Pete_Vit on December 03, 2020, 06:42:35 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on December 02, 2020, 02:55:20 PM
No, you don't run the hose to the backing plate. Plug the hole in the plate (make sure whatever you use doesn't come loose and get sucked into the carb!). I used a bolt and two nuts, red loctite.
Run the two hoses down around the bottom of the carb, tee them together, extend a single hose to the ground.
This keeps the carb from sucking the oil mist from the motor into the carb and getting it gunked up, and helps keep carbon from building up on the pistons.
Do a search here, there are a bunch of threads on how to do it. People also use catch cans to collect the water and oil blow-by.
:up: that's kinda how I did the Sporty, but instead of teeing i connected one of those breather filters under the carb conencted in the middle, but the same idea - the Springer I did something like what you suggest works well
Thanks, I thought about joining the 2 breather hoses with a breather filler sitting just below the carb - but then I thought that oil may drop on the motor?
No need to spend money on that. Turn the breather tubes down, cap the extra barb, Run the hose down below the carb, tee them, continue single tube below the frame, whichever route you want, front or back of the motor. I don't filter it, some guys do, many run to a catch can and empty it occasionally. Some worry about the oil getting on the back tire, some don't. I don't. Not much comes out, especially while running. Mostly on startup. Many, many posts on this site with different solutions. I think my brass tee cost a couple dollars, couple small hose clamps, $2 in 3/8 hose.
I'll try and post some up other threads here.
Try this one, post #18 has a pic.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,100230.0.html
Quote from: Hossamania on December 03, 2020, 04:24:28 PM
No need to spend money on that. Turn the breather tubes down, cap the extra barb, Run the hose down below the carb, tee them, continue single tube below the frame, whichever route you want, front or back of the motor. I don't filter it, some guys do, many run to a catch can and empty it occasionally. Some worry about the oil getting on the back tire, some don't. I don't. Not much comes out, especially while running. Mostly on startup. Many, many posts on this site with different solutions. I think my brass tee cost a couple dollars, couple small hose clamps, $2 in 3/8 hose.
I'll try and post some up other threads here.
Thanks, I have just read a bunch of threads..... I have the brass T piece and a 1/4" hose routed down to under the engine. No filter on the end currently.
👍
I'll suggest you avoid placing the end of the hose in a position where the wind when traveling can reach it. It can set up a low pressure at the tip of the hose and draw from the vent line. This can introduce oilier air direct from the heads and increase the discharge. Well placed there often is less than an occasional drip from a healthy engine.
Some of the members here mentioned that their filter became contaminated to the point it wouldn't vent anymore. No filter = no problem.
Quote from: kd on December 03, 2020, 04:41:25 PM
I'll suggest you avoid placing the end of the hose in a position where the wind when traveling can reach it. It can set up a low pressure at the tip of the hose and draw from the vent line. This can introduce oilier air direct from the heads and increase the discharge. Well placed there often is less than an occasional drip from a healthy engine.
Some of the members here mentioned that their filter became contaminated to the point it wouldn't vent anymore. No filter = no problem.
Agreed. 👍 can you please suggest the best point for the end of the tube to exit under the bike? See my post below.
Thanks
This is currently where mine is. It's the larger tube exciting with the smaller tube that vents from the carb itself.
That's about where mine is as well.
I would be tempted to pull it up out of the air stream for the reasons I mentioned. The same with the carb vent. The ones I have that don't go to a catch can end farther back near the fuel tank and battery vent lines directly behind the transmission and up out of the direct air flow. It'll pass easily under the transmission case and can be terminated without turning it down.
Quote from: kd on December 03, 2020, 05:18:29 PM
I would be tempted to pull it up out of the air stream for the reasons I mentioned. The same with the carb vent. The ones I have that don't go to a catch can end farther back near the fuel tank and battery vent lines directly behind the transmission and up out of the direct air flow. It'll pass easily under the transmission case and can be terminated without turning it down.
Ok, just when I have everything plumbed in and zip tied 😁
At least I've sorted out the breather and it's a lot better than what I started with. I'll see if I can get some longer hose to go behind the transmission.
Looks good. Because I'm kind of a nut job, I painted the tee and clamps black. And of course I had to orient the clamps so they all went the same way. OCD is a bitch sometimes.
Getting close to firing that thing up!
Quote from: Hossamania on December 04, 2020, 04:12:10 AM
Looks good. Because I'm kind of a nut job, I painted the tee and clamps black. And of course I had to orient the clamps so they all went the same way. OCD is a bitch sometimes.
Getting close to firing that thing up!
Yes, I did think about the black paint.... for about 3 minutes and then couldn't be bothered.
And yes, getting close to firing it up 😁
Thanks to all the great help I've received from you kind folk. 👍
Quote from: Adam76 on December 04, 2020, 12:02:06 AM
Quote from: kd on December 03, 2020, 05:18:29 PM
I would be tempted to pull it up out of the air stream for the reasons I mentioned. The same with the carb vent. The ones I have that don't go to a catch can end farther back near the fuel tank and battery vent lines directly behind the transmission and up out of the direct air flow. It'll pass easily under the transmission case and can be terminated without turning it down.
Ok, just when I have everything plumbed in and zip tied 😁
At least I've sorted out the breather and it's a lot better than what I started with. I'll see if I can get some longer hose to go behind the transmission.
What air cleaner set up is that?
Quote from: Adam76 on December 03, 2020, 02:36:50 PM
Quote from: Pete_Vit on December 03, 2020, 06:42:35 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on December 02, 2020, 02:55:20 PM
No, you don't run the hose to the backing plate. Plug the hole in the plate (make sure whatever you use doesn't come loose and get sucked into the carb!). I used a bolt and two nuts, red loctite.
Run the two hoses down around the bottom of the carb, tee them together, extend a single hose to the ground.
This keeps the carb from sucking the oil mist from the motor into the carb and getting it gunked up, and helps keep carbon from building up on the pistons.
Do a search here, there are a bunch of threads on how to do it. People also use catch cans to collect the water and oil blow-by.
:up: that's kinda how I did the Sporty, but instead of teeing i connected one of those breather filters under the carb conencted in the middle, but the same idea - the Springer I did something like what you suggest works well
Thanks, I thought about joining the 2 breather hoses with a breather filler sitting just below the carb - but then I thought that oil may drop on the motor?
it didn't on my Evo Sporty, since the bike is now on the stand and waiting to get a new life, I may reroute it based on other's idea's :up:
Quote from: lumberjacklloyd on December 11, 2020, 05:26:30 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on December 04, 2020, 12:02:06 AM
Quote from: kd on December 03, 2020, 05:18:29 PM
I would be tempted to pull it up out of the air stream for the reasons I mentioned. The same with the carb vent. The ones I have that don't go to a catch can end farther back near the fuel tank and battery vent lines directly behind the transmission and up out of the direct air flow. It'll pass easily under the transmission case and can be terminated without turning it down.
Ok, just when I have everything plumbed in and zip tied 😁
At least I've sorted out the breather and it's a lot better than what I started with. I'll see if I can get some longer hose to go behind the transmission.
What air cleaner set up is that?
It's one that I thought was an S&S but sadly isn't. It's got "Eagle Iron" or similar stamped on it and it's been difficult to work with. The backing plate didn't really fit, the mounting tabs and components needed modification to make it work / fit. It only takes one particular special shape/ type air cleaner element that I couch find a replacement for, and is not compatible with any S&S parts or components.
I stuck with it, cleaned the element with a recharge kit and after much swearing and busted knuckles it's all mounted and looks good to go.
Cheers
Quote from: Adam76 on December 11, 2020, 05:57:53 AM
It's one that I thought was an S&S but sadly isn't. It's got "Eagle Iron" or similar stamped on it and it's been difficult to work with. The backing plate didn't really fit, the mounting tabs and components needed modification to make it work / fit. It only takes one particular special shape/ type air cleaner element that I couch find a replacement for, and is not compatible with any S&S parts or components.
I stuck with it, cleaned the element with a recharge kit and after much swearing and busted knuckles it's all mounted and looks good to go.
Cheers
I have the same air cleaner but mine is now modified and mounted with another bracket and way easier to setup if it comes off.
After all that, I got the electrical gremlins....
Turned the ignition on and got the neutral and oil lights and I thought I was doing great. But no headlight, no high beam, no horn, rear brake light only activated by the foot pedal and no right side turnsignals (front or rear) the only things that did work were the left side turnsignals, the rear park light and the rear brake light - from the foot brake pedal...
Good thing I didn't put the fuel tank back on! :crook: I had just finished all the internal handlebar wiring and was thinking how neat it all looked. I used the NAMZ plug and play extension kit, so no splicing and soldering. I really spent a lot of time and effort to make sure I didn't have to go back in and pull it all apart..... Checked the fuses and they're all good. Guess I'll be getting my multi meter out tomorrow for some continuity checking.
When you have your meter out, go through the fuses again for continuity. Seeing is not necessarily believing when it comes to those fuses. I've had them look good but are actually open. You also have enough different circuits involved you may be able to find the leads common to them only and focus there.
Quote from: kd on December 14, 2020, 05:50:03 AM
When you have your meter out, go through the fuses again for continuity. Seeing is not necessarily believing when it comes to those fuses. I've had them look good but are actually open. You also have enough different circuits involved you may be able to find the leads common to them only and focus there.
Thanks kd, will check the fuses.
What/ how do I check an individual circuit? I take one look at the wiring diagrams in the FSM and it looks like Egyptian hydroglyphics :doh:
Quote from: Adam76 on December 14, 2020, 03:04:45 PM
What/ how do I check an individual circuit? I take one look at the wiring diagrams in the FSM and it looks like Egyptian hydroglyphics :doh:
:hyst: reading a wiring diagram just takes a bit of time to learn but in the meantime check that you extended the wires in the correct colour and that they match up to the plugs where then go in the main harness (under tank)
You really do need a bright light (sunlight is best) to make sure you have the right colours matched.
Believe me brown and red mix up easy in dull light and white and white with a stripe are also easily mixed.
Quote from: Scotty on December 14, 2020, 03:13:21 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on December 14, 2020, 03:04:45 PM
What/ how do I check an individual circuit? I take one look at the wiring diagrams in the FSM and it looks like Egyptian hydroglyphics :doh:
:hyst: reading a wiring diagram just takes a bit of time to learn but in the meantime check that you extended the wires in the correct colour and that they match up to the plugs where then go in the main harness (under tank)
You really do need a bright light (sunlight is best) to make sure you have the right colours matched.
Believe me brown and red mix up easy in dull light and white and white with a stripe are also easily mixed.
Thanks Scotty, yes the white with the two different coloured stripes was a fun one :teeth:
Ok, seems my main problem was the wires in one of my connectors were not pushed in far enough.
So now I have everything working except can't get the aux spot lights to come on in any setting. Not with low beam or high beam.
Also still have no front brake lever to rear brake light activation - so the small brake light switch at the controls must have got damaged, even though I took extra care when removing and installing the lever and m/c ?
Quote from: Adam76 on December 14, 2020, 07:30:55 PM
Ok, seems my main problem was the wires in one of my connectors were not pushed in far enough.
So now I have everything working except can't get the aux spot lights to come on in any setting. Not with low beam or high beam.
Also still have no front brake lever to rear brake light activation - so the small brake light switch at the controls must have got damaged, even though I took extra care when removing and installing the lever and m/c ?
Check the brake light switch is not jammed against the inside of the right control and has the little wedge holding it in place tight.
[attach=0]
Quote from: Scotty on December 14, 2020, 09:18:05 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on December 14, 2020, 07:30:55 PM
Ok, seems my main problem was the wires in one of my connectors were not pushed in far enough.
So now I have everything working except can't get the aux spot lights to come on in any setting. Not with low beam or high beam.
Also still have no front brake lever to rear brake light activation - so the small brake light switch at the controls must have got damaged, even though I took extra care when removing and installing the lever and m/c ?
Check the brake light switch is not jammed against the inside of the right control and has the little wedge holding it in place tight.
[attach=0,msg1371568]
Thanks Scotty, took apart the front switch housing and the actual brake switch and it's components look ok... the wiring looks good.
From my understanding, when you break/damage the front brake light switch, the symptom is that the brake stays ON.
My problem is that the brake light does NOT come on at all with the front brake switch pressed in or out?? I'm even pushing the front brake light switch in and out manually with my finger and still cannot get the rear brake light to illuminate on at all?
Am I supposed to be hearing a relay clicking when I'm doing this?
Use a multi meter and probe each wire and see if the switch activates that way if it does then the wiring is wrong and if it doesn't then the switch is buggered.
Quote from: Scotty on December 14, 2020, 11:19:24 PM
Use a multi meter and probe each wire and see if the switch activates that way if it does then the wiring is wrong and if it doesn't then the switch is buggered.
Thanks Scotty, you're a legend.
I did this and found that I had 12V going to the switch and then it cutting in and out when depressing the switch plunger - so my switch was good.
Then I traced my wiring right back to the connector and turns out one of the wires just wasn't quite pushed in deep enough into the connector!!
Back in business.
Cheers
Also for your side lamps/spot lights they get their power from the lo/hi beam white and yellow wire and that runs to one side of the switch. Check if you have power there at the switch and if not work your way back.
Quote from: Scotty on December 15, 2020, 12:18:22 AM
Also for your side lamps/spot lights they get their power from the lo/hi beam white and yellow wire and that runs to one side of the switch. Check if you have power there at the switch and if not work your way back.
:up: thanks. My spotlight switch only has the two grey wires from the spotlights themselves and one singe black wire from the headlight - both going to the spotlight switch?
Quote from: Adam76 on December 15, 2020, 01:34:18 AM
:up: thanks. My spotlight switch only has the two grey wires from the spotlights themselves and one singe black wire from the headlight - both going to the spotlight switch?
Check that black wire in the headlight then as it carries the power so should have 12v power when ignition on.
Quote from: Adam76 on December 15, 2020, 12:08:06 AM
Quote from: Scotty on December 14, 2020, 11:19:24 PM
Use a multi meter and probe each wire and see if the switch activates that way if it does then the wiring is wrong and if it doesn't then the switch is buggered.
Thanks Scotty, you're a legend.
I did this and found that I had 12V going to the switch and then it cutting in and out when depressing the switch plunger - so my switch was good.
Then I traced my wiring right back to the connector and turns out one of the wires just wasn't quite pushed in deep enough into the connector!!
Back in business.
Cheers
Adam, I have found several problems internally in those plugs. It seems the pins (and sockets) are sometimes not latching inside properly. Although it may have been working previously once unplugged and then re-connected, one wire will push the other back out of the connector. If a pin in the group doesn't line up with the corresponding socket one or the other is forced out of its position. I look at the end to make sure they are all at the proper depth and hold the wires at the back of the plug when reinstalling to make sure they all slide together as intended.
Quote from: kd on December 15, 2020, 03:03:19 PM
Adam, I have found several problems internally in those plugs. It seems the pins (and sockets) are sometimes not latching inside properly. Although it may have been working previously once unplugged and then re-connected, one wire will push the other back out of the connector. If a pin in the group doesn't line up with the corresponding socket one or the other is forced out of its position. I look at the end to make sure they are all at the proper depth and hold the wires at the back of the plug when reinstalling to make sure they all slide together as intended.
Once clicked into place correctly and the locking wedge put in they should not be able to move.
In the photo below you can see the locking wedges in place.
[attach=0]
"
Once clicked into place correctly and the locking wedge put in they should not be able to move.
In the photo below you can see the locking wedges in place."
Scotty, I get that. I even bought new pins and connector blocks (not expensive) to cure the problem. I even have some common spares now. The key word is "should" but you don't know if it was assembled "by force" the previous time or not. They "should" click into the lock in the holder, and they "should' line up on assembly but sometimes they don't. The male pin is very pliable in it's position and that side can bend off center and if not noticed can be a problem finding it's mate.
Quote from: kd on December 15, 2020, 03:03:19 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on December 15, 2020, 12:08:06 AM
Quote from: Scotty on December 14, 2020, 11:19:24 PM
Use a multi meter and probe each wire and see if the switch activates that way if it does then the wiring is wrong and if it doesn't then the switch is buggered.
Thanks Scotty, you're a legend.
I did this and found that I had 12V going to the switch and then it cutting in and out when depressing the switch plunger - so my switch was good.
Then I traced my wiring right back to the connector and turns out one of the wires just wasn't quite pushed in deep enough into the connector!!
Back in business.
Cheers
Adam, I have found several problems internally in those plugs. It seems the pins (and sockets) are sometimes not latching inside properly. Although it may have been working previously once unplugged and then re-connected, one wire will push the other back out of the connector. If a pin in the group doesn't line up with the corresponding socket one or the other is forced out of its position. I look at the end to make sure they are all at the proper depth and hold the wires at the back of the plug when reinstalling to make sure they all slide together as intended.
Thanks kd, I think I was experiencing this exact problem on the left side hand controls connector. That one works now after resetting all the pins in the connector.
Cheers :up:
Quote from: Scotty on December 15, 2020, 10:44:08 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on December 15, 2020, 01:34:18 AM
:up: thanks. My spotlight switch only has the two grey wires from the spotlights themselves and one singe black wire from the headlight - both going to the spotlight switch?
Check that black wire in the headlight then as it carries the power so should have 12v power when ignition on.
Thanks Scotty, I'll do this today and report back. I have a feeling this somehow may be a problem.
Cheers
Quote from: kd on December 15, 2020, 03:20:00 PM
"
Once clicked into place correctly and the locking wedge put in they should not be able to move.
In the photo below you can see the locking wedges in place."
Scotty, I get that. I even bought new pins and connector blocks (not expensive) to cure the problem. I even have some common spares now. The key word is "should" but you don't know if it was assembled "by force" the previous time or not. They "should" click into the lock in the holder, and they "should' line up on assembly but sometimes they don't. The male pin is very pliable in it's position and that side can bend off center and if not noticed can be a problem finding it's mate.
I suppose if a ham fisted person had played with it before but I pull them apart all the time and have the proper tool for crimping DT & DTM and I have never had a wire back out.
:up: :agree:
Thanks guys, all wiring fixed now...
Last part of the puzzle was the grey wire giving power to the aux spot lights had pulled loose inside the spotlight bucket itself 😖
So now all is well.
Now for the fun part - fuel tank is going on, exhaust on and ready to fire it up for the first time.
Quote from: Adam76 on December 15, 2020, 08:52:46 PM
Thanks guys, all wiring fixed now...
Last part of the puzzle was the grey wire giving power to the aux spot lights had pulled loose inside the spotlight bucket itself 😖
So now all is well.
Now for the fun part - fuel tank is going on, exhaust on and ready to fire it up for the first time.
There you go you fixed it. But did you know in the wiring diagram that grey/black wire is white for Australia and yellow for every other country.
[attach=0]
Thanks Scotty, I didn't see that in my FSM - the printing was faded and the writing extremely small. But good to know.
I tried to exactly match the wiring colours that were already on the bike as it was all working before the disassembly and reassembly.
:up: :up:
Quote from: Adam76 on December 15, 2020, 11:51:00 PM
Thanks Scotty, I didn't see that in my FSM - the printing was faded and the writing extremely small. But good to know.
I tried to exactly match the wiring colours that were already on the bike as it was all working before the disassembly and reassembly.
:up: :up:
I have two or three magnifying glasses in the garage for these situations, and the camera on your phone can be your friend here too.
Getting close Adam :up:
Still on the lift? 1 more recommendation; Spark plugs out, in high gear, rear wheel elevated, roll the back wheel forward through a dozen engine rotations to make sure everything feels alright. If so, back to neutral, use starter, in 10 second bursts, to rotate engine long enough for the oil light to go out. If all of that seems OK, plugs back in, restore all connections, and do the first heat cycle.
Quote from: 98fxstc on December 16, 2020, 12:03:56 PM
Getting close Adam :up:
Yes, thanks to all the kind and knowledgeable folks here. :up:
Quote from: rigidthumper on December 16, 2020, 01:27:20 PM
Still on the lift? 1 more recommendation; Spark plugs out, in high gear, rear wheel elevated, roll the back wheel forward through a dozen engine rotations to make sure everything feels alright. If so, back to neutral, use starter, in 10 second bursts, to rotate engine long enough for the oil light to go out. If all of that seems OK, plugs back in, restore all connections, and do the first heat cycle.
Thanks rigidthumper, I've already done the few dozen rotations with the rear wheel off the lift and all seemed smooth. Now I'm ready to do the 10 second bursts with no plugs. Is that just to get oil pressure up?
Thanks
Quote from: Adam76 on December 16, 2020, 11:27:06 PM
Is that just to get oil pressure up?
Yes do it until the oil pressure light goes out.
It does not take long but can pickup a problem with pump flow before you start.
And don't do it 10 times and then realize you forgot to put oil in :hyst: :embarrassed:
:teeth: :hyst: :up: :up:
Quote from: Scotty on December 16, 2020, 11:30:59 PM
Quote from: Adam76 on December 16, 2020, 11:27:06 PM
Is that just to get oil pressure up?
Yes do it until the oil pressure light goes out.
It does not take long but can pickup a problem with pump flow before you start.
And don't do it 10 times and then realize you forgot to put oil in :hyst: :embarrassed:
Yeah, I put oil in all 3 holes a while back just to be sure. 😂
Last day on the lift before the first heat cycle 😁
Merry Christmas to everyone, all the best and thanks again for all the help and advice on this build.
God bless.
Looks good, getting exciting now!
Bit of jif and warm water will get the blue of tyres and make them gleaming white.
About the only thing I used to hate about running whitewalls was the initial clean.
Bike looks good.
Quote from: Scotty on December 19, 2020, 05:13:15 PM
Bit of jif and warm water will get the blue of tyres and make them gleaming white.
About the only thing I used to hate about running whitewalls was the initial clean.
Bike looks good.
Thanks for the tip. I was going to use dish washing detergent, but never done one before so I'll go the Jif.
Cheers.
Someone mentioned here years ago that the Mr. Clean Magic Eraser works well for cleaning whitewalls. I can't confirm this as I have not owned whitewall tires since my first car over 40 years ago.
Very good work Adam, hoping the first start up reveals all is well. Clean bike and a clean garage. Pride is evident.
Around these parts, Jif is peanut butter!
I've always just used warm water and a stiff bristle brush.
Bike looks great!
Quote from: rigidthumper on December 20, 2020, 09:41:11 AM
Around these parts, Jif is peanut butter!
I'm afraid that's what I was thinking too! I'm assuming some type of cleaner? English doesn't always translate across english speaking cultures...
Quote from: rigidthumper on December 20, 2020, 09:41:11 AM
Around these parts, Jif is peanut butter!
I've always just used warm water and a stiff bristle brush.
Bike looks great!
:hyst: No jif is a creamy cleanser and because Adam is an aussie as I am I knew he would know what I mean.
It's like biscuits here are cookies there and what you call biscuits is like a scone here.
And don't get me started on what a thong is :hyst:
Quote from: Scotty on December 20, 2020, 12:27:31 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on December 20, 2020, 09:41:11 AM
Around these parts, Jif is peanut butter!
I've always just used warm water and a stiff bristle brush.
Bike looks great!
:hyst: No jif is a creamy cleanser and because Adam is an aussie as I am I knew he would know what I mean.
It's like biscuits here are cookies there and what you call biscuits is like a scone here.
And don't get me started on what a thong is :hyst:
Hahaha... :hyst: I'm wearing thongs now.
When I grew up, thongs were footwear, most common at the beach.
Yep, and now they're flip flops. :nix:
Not enough juice?
Had everything ready for the grand first start, including the cold beer. I should mention that the trickle charger has been plugged in the entire build, so I thought my battery would still be good.
Cranked over weakly a few times, then went to clicking only. So I gave the battery another full charge and the charging light went green so I tried again - same thing.
Then used jumper cables to hook up to my old man's corolla battery while the car was off, and tried and it was still only just turning over and then dying.
So then, against my better judgment I had the corolla engine running while I tried to start the bike - was cranking over weakly but no luck. Still seemed like it just didn't have enough juice to really turn the motor over properly.
Then I started to panic that I've fried something because I shouldn't have tried to jump it with the car engine running as well... So I pulled the 4 main fuses at the black box at the rear fender and they all looked good.
What puzzles me is that only the other day the battery was all good for turning it over with the spark plugs out to get the oil pressure up.
Tomorrow I will take my battery to get properly tested. It has a 310 CCA rating so I thought that would be enough for this mild build, I'm not even at 9.5 static comp. I checked at the terminals and the cables and ground wire.
Anything else I should check?
Thanks.
Seen it plenty of times if the battery has been sitting around since August and not on a trickle charger it may well have failed.
Especially if it has been sitting on a concrete floor it will suck the life out of it especially if it is a few years old.
Get it tested but sounds like it might be cactus.
Thanks Scotty - I should have mentioned it's been on the trickle charger the entire build. So I thought it would be good. :scratch:
Quote from: Scotty on December 22, 2020, 01:23:37 AM
Seen it plenty of times if the battery has been sitting around since August and not on a trickle charger it may well have failed.
Especially if it has been sitting on a concrete floor it will suck the life out of it especially if it is a few years old.
Get it tested but sounds like it might be cactus.
Sounds like I might need a new one. Can you suggest a brand or certain CCA battery that I should look out for? I know the good ones can get pretty pricey.
Cheers
Is it a battery tender, or a actual trickle charger that stays on all the time? If it's the latter, then could have fried the battery. If starter, cables, etc. are in good shape, 310CCA should be adequate. Yuasa makes very good batteries.
:agree: All of the above. :up: Yuasa unless you're up to moving into a Lithium then AntiGravity is my high quality choice. It appears that a good Lithium battery will at least double the life time and that more than makes up for the extra cost. The AG "restart" batteries have a safety shut down that prevents low discharge damage and saves enough to restart.
For us performest enthusiast,- The Battery Tender Lithium weighs in at 3.5 lbs. !
It is 300 CCA.
They are now making a larger one 480 CCA. I see no reason to buy a 30 lb battery.
None.
The old adage says "take care of the ounces and the lbs will take care of themselves.
25 lbs is quite a chunk to get rid of!
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JV8X181/ref=crt_ewc_title_huc_5?ie=UTF8&psc=1&smid=AC0UA62Z9ZBMG
Quote from: Adam76 on December 22, 2020, 02:37:31 AM
Sounds like I might need a new one. Can you suggest a brand or certain CCA battery that I should look out for? I know the good ones can get pretty pricey.
Cheers
I know they are throwing around names in the messages above and that is because they have a better range and more choices in the states. Here in OZ my first warning is don't buy cheap or you will regret it and for longevity I have found the Harley batteries generally last very well.
You can get Yuasa at some places but that is about all that I would use but you will have to ring around and being a Softail get one that fits in the hole :potstir:
The model you need is YTX20HL-BS and don't buy a SSB or superstart as I have seen 3 of those now take a dump and the warranty aint worth :turd:
Whichever battery you decide on, charge it to full before using.
Quote from: Deye76 on December 22, 2020, 06:45:53 AM
Is it a battery tender, or a actual trickle charger that stays on all the time? If it's the latter, then could have fried the battery. If starter, cables, etc. are in good shape, 310CCA should be adequate. Yuasa makes very good batteries.
Thanks Deye76. It came with the bike and the PO said it was a trickle charger that I thought was meant to keep the battery topped up while not in use? Maybe that was the problem :nix:
Quote from: Scotty on December 22, 2020, 10:36:45 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on December 22, 2020, 02:37:31 AM
Sounds like I might need a new one. Can you suggest a brand or certain CCA battery that I should look out for? I know the good ones can get pretty pricey.
Cheers
I know they are throwing around names in the messages above and that is because they have a better range and more choices in the states. Here in OZ my first warning is don't buy cheap or you will regret it and for longevity I have found the Harley batteries generally last very well.
You can get Yuasa at some places but that is about all that I would use but you will have to ring around and being a Softail get one that fits in the hole :potstir:
The model you need is YTX20HL-BS and don't buy a SSB or superstart as I have seen 3 of those now take a dump and the warranty aint worth :turd:
Thanks Scotty! Appreciate the heads up :up:
Going to try and pick one up this morning.
Cheers
Quote from: Hossamania on December 22, 2020, 01:53:23 PM
Whichever battery you decide on, charge it to full before using.
Thanks Hoss, will do. :up:
That looks like a charger to me although I can't find the specs. I use CTek which have caused me no issues for years.
Quote from: Scotty on December 22, 2020, 04:07:23 PM
That looks like a charger to me although I can't find the specs. I use CTek which have caused me no issues for years.
Yep, I think you're right. :doh:
Yep, got battery test results and it's completely fried inside. Thanks to the charger I had hooked up for three months thinking it was a trickle charger :oops:
I now have a new battery.
SCA 12V 2.5 Amp 3 Stage Battery Charger (https://www.supercheapauto.com.au/p/sca-sca-12v-2.5-amp-3-stage-battery-charger/577071.html)
3 stages: 1: Bulk (Boost) / 2: Absorption / 3: Float
You can use that charger, just disconnect it once it reads full charge.
Get a CTEK charger/maintainer lots of places sell them and this is the model I use on the Harley
https://www.ctek.com/au/all-products/car/xs-0-8-aus (https://www.ctek.com/au/all-products/car/xs-0-8-aus)
I use a CTEK Lithium charger for my AG 970 CCA battery. Like the one that Scotty posted it charges in stages and protects the battery from overcharge effect. The lead acid one uses a low power ripple rate. I have watched mine through the cycles and you can tell where you are at by the lamps.
I have two of these. Guaranteed not to fry batteries, and claims to de-sulfate.
https://www.pulsetech.net/store/12v-24v-battery-chargers/12v-maintenance-chargers/xc100-p-xtreme-charge-12v-battery-maintenance-charger-desulfator.html
-JW
THANK YOU EVERYONE FOR YOUR HELP ON THIS BUILD.
It's alive and running.
Tried to attach a short video of the first heat cycle, but file is too big even when compressed.
I'm really pleased with how it all turned out. For ask you folk that helped me with a lot of patience and understanding it's much appreciated.
Have a safe and happy Christmas and a blessed new year.
Adam
Congrats Adam, it's got to feel great to hear it running after all the work you've put in!
Enjoy your first ride, don't lug it or baby it, don't beat on it, and just try to wipe that grin off your face...
Adam that's awesome! Great news, and bro, DON'T FORGET THAT SMELL!! The smell of a fresh rebuild fire up is priceless!!! Can't wait for the report of the first ride, keep 'em coming!!!
:beer: :beer: :beer:
-JW
:up: :hug: :beer:
Quote from: JW113 on December 23, 2020, 07:37:22 PM
Adam that's awesome! Great news, and bro, DON'T FORGET THAT SMELL!! The smell of a fresh rebuild fire up is priceless!!! Can't wait for the report of the first ride, keep 'em coming!!!
:beer: :beer: :beer:
-JW
Thanks JW. Yep, went for the first test ride yesterday. Put a huge grin on my face :teeth:
Even without re-jetting or setting the timing or anything it rode surprisingly well and very smooth. Shifted nicely all it needs is a little clutch adjustment to get the friction zone coming in earlier.
I won't be able to tell how she really runs until I have the full dyno tune and ignition set up and engine broken in.... But from what I can tell now, it's gonna be good!!
:chop:
Quote from: Scotty on December 23, 2020, 08:26:56 PM
:up: :hug: :beer:
Hehehe... yes group hugs and beers all round. :beer: :beer:
Thanks Scotty
:up: Good job.
"full dyno tune and ignition set up and engine broken in."
Have your dyno guy break it in on the dyno, = controlled environment.
I have not followed closely -But different ring p[acks require different break-in procedures.
Quote from: Deye76 on December 30, 2020, 05:45:35 AM
:up: Good job.
"full dyno tune and ignition set up and engine broken in."
Have your dyno guy break it in on the dyno, = controlled environment.
Yeah, thanks deye76, sorry if that wasn't clear. My dyno tuner is going to break in the engine on the dyno at the time of tuning - as per his advice. I think some people may not agree with the "break in on the dyno" process but I'm good with it unless advised otherwise.
Cheers and happy new year.
They won't agree only if they don't understand :wink:
Mine was broken in on the Dyno, when I got it back there was no "take it easy for 500 miles", it came out of the shop and immediately got hell beat out of it.
90,000 miles of abuse so far, uses no oil to speak of, still runs great.
I've had 3 motors broken in on the dyno, excellent results.
Smart move Adam. :up:
I have learned the hard way a dyno is only as smart as the operator(S)
If they don't ask questions or dont pay attn to your situation your problems are in the mail.
We used to do (prolly still do) dyno days out on the West coast.
The operator would always interrogate us b4 the start.
It was a fun day for comparisons.
So, Does he know what kind of rings you have?
What type of hone finish was used?
Or is all the same treatment for everyone? (that might be a clue)
To demonstrate my point- if you use brand X and someone else uses brand Y rings, there are material differences!
Then there is the universal theory nowadays of micro-welding at break-in. I am now a believer!
two times now i have come out with less than 3% leak dwn!
Rings are the most neglected part of the engine!
Most people just throw them in, never giving them the love that they need.
Using rasp files, chain saw files, no ring expanders, never deburring them, never washing etc etc.
These people just make me flinch at their ignorance or arrogance ..whichever it is.
Then they question why they have 10% leak dwn numbers!
Having it on a dyno with strict control of the AF and timing is the key. Using a startup or so-called break-in tune flashed in is an unknown. Each engine is different even with the same components. Just the pipe can make the difference that can do irreparable damage. To rich or too lean, I just want to take it for a short ride, :crook: . All you need is a few (and only a few) short heat cycles to confirm no leaks olr strange sounds. That's the only thing a "break-in tune should be used for. Many get away with it but the risk is high you'll kill the engine or longevity. That is an expert opinion shared by many.
If I am building an expensive engine and use a shop to tune it just because they have a dyno, shame on me. If you are sharp enough to research and build an engine you need to understand the importance of a comprehensive tune and where to find one. If a dyno operator was to tell me to go put 500 miles or more on it and bring it back, I would run as far away as I could. The first part of a tune is setting the safe parameters having full control of all conditions. As the tune progresses the light throttle and low rpm conditions, decel etc. are dialed in. In effect that IS breaking in the engine. The rings and hone are another discussion that is mostly mute these days. I travel 9 hrs one way to the closest tuner that I can trust with my investment and he loves to make power. Most try to find a dyno "machine" (and that's all it is) as close as possible and will end up defaulting to some sort of flash the operator uses to save time and money and a few WFO hard pulls for a fancy sheet of paper. No heat or knock tracking or AFR.
Added later
Using a good lighter dyno oil like Rotella T 10/40 oil and new filter for the heat cycles then an oil and filter change to a 20/50 for the dyno is a good idea. You're going to end up with 4 to 6 hrs and about 50 miles on the drum and I personally change it again to what I will be using (even if syn). Time to ride it normally after that.
Just to keep the train on the tracks...
He has a 1996 Softail. There is nothing to flash or program. And I think we've been through a safe jetting for initial start up on another thread.
I would never argue against break in on a dyno with a competent tuner. That said, I've never done it personally. Every last engine build I've done, and there have been many, was done the old school method. And I can't imagine the end results were any different than if done on a dyno. But again, if you have the access and the money, go for it!
-JW
:oops: Damn, this may be the second time I lost track of what bike it was in this thread. :slap:
Where I was coming from is EFI. I think it's a different world with the EFI. Canned tunes are troublesome and bad ones have been discussed here plenty. If it has to be tuned any way, as is the way it is with EFI, the tuner has to (should) be going through all of the same areas that will add up to a break in period. It will be hooked up to the sensors and timing so it is possible to have a "no guess" safe map that is perfect.
It doesn't really come down to having enough money. A tune is part of the build cost and must be considered in the budget. I would have been a fool to build my 145 /150 120 and run it on the 103 OEM tune. That is if it did run on it. I won't even admit what I put into the engine. It was worth every penny and I expected it to cost as much for the quality of components used.
Anyone and everyone should have their very own AFR gauge on the bike, esp for the first run up! (unless of course, it is almost bone stock)
Knowing the AFR,
Knowing heat cycles is the battle to be won to win the war.
The first few startups according to people brighter than most of here is the key to well-seated rings.
KD, I'm with you there. FI is indeed a whole nuther ball game, and unlike a klunky old carburetor that will run OK if it's just in the ball park, a bad FI map has the potential to destroy the motor. So yes, I agree with you 100% on that.
Which goes to explain why I don't own a FI bike, and hopefully, never will!
:SM:
-JW
Ha Ha, :agree: You can do wonders with a screw driver, plug wrench and a hand full of needles and jets.
One can fix a carburetor in the middle of nowhere,
FI cant be fixed in the middle of anywhere.
I've been to the middle of nowhere. Going again, soon, I hope. :hyst:
Quote from: thumper 823 on December 31, 2020, 05:28:30 PM
One can fix a carburetor in the middle of nowhere,
FI cant be fixed in the middle of anywhere.
Sure, but you don't have too!
I have more miles on EFI bikes than Carbureted and zero EFI problems. Seems like with carbs there was some issue to open the carb every year or two with a lot less miles.
Plus with EFI you can connect a laptop and reflash in a couple minutes and not smell like gas when you are done.
In over 60 years of riding I have had one problem a carb, just one, it was on my iron head.
Float stuck.
I Fixed it on the spot ..well,.. I took it off and into a cafe and had coffee and crab for lunch.
But I have seen a LOT of bikes towed because of dead FI.
So.....I guess use what makes you happy...and what gives you confidance.
I will admit I would be using points and condenser if I could map the timing and double plugs with it.
I like stuff simple.
Quote from: thumper 823 on January 01, 2021, 01:34:54 PM
But I have seen a LOT of bikes towed because of dead FI.
I ride with quite a few Harleys and personally have not heard of an EFI failure. Now i will admit the early TC had the fuel line rubbing problems, but since that was fixed the EFI has been bulletproof. I have seem Harleys towed, but it has been engine, transmission or wheel bearing failures. The bunch I ride with averages around 10,000 miles a year and one rider was running 35,000 a year. No EFI failures in the bunch.
The MM systems were somewhat problematic.
Some of the rubber mount models had problems with the injector wires breaking from motor movement.
I've seen way more charging system problems than EFI failures.
A tech with some simple knowledge can fix an EFI beside the road, it just takes a different skill set.
There is no way in hell you can convince me that Electronic Ignition and EFI is unreliable or problematic, the benefits far outweigh any inconvenience.
Electronics are not bad, evil, or unreliable. In fact EFI can do things a carb and points never dreamed of.
However, there are bike owners who should not own a bike with EI or EFI....... :potstir:
And there are owners who should not own bikes with carbs and especially points!
Don't leave out the ones that should have their tool boxes welded shut.....
I still harken back to a story when I was in Sturgis in 2000. I heard some guy trying to start his bike, it would start and die, start and die. Must have done this ten times. I walked over and asked if he was using the choke. "No, it causes flooding." I said not really, pull the choke, don't touch the throttle, and hit the starter. It fired right off and ran nice. I told him to let it warm about 30 seconds and ride normally, the choke should go off on its own, but if not, turn it off after a couple miles.
Kids.
Quote from: Burnout on January 08, 2021, 09:16:55 AM
Don't leave out the ones that should have their tool boxes welded shut.....
:hyst: I have one mate like that. He should never even change a light bulb he will just get electrocuted :hyst:
Quote from: Scotty on January 08, 2021, 12:36:20 PM
Quote from: Burnout on January 08, 2021, 09:16:55 AM
Don't leave out the ones that should have their tool boxes welded shut.....
:hyst: I have one mate like that. He should never even change a light bulb he will just get electrocuted :hyst:
You know my brother?
Quote from: Hossamania on January 08, 2021, 05:02:58 PM
Quote from: Scotty on January 08, 2021, 12:36:20 PM
Quote from: Burnout on January 08, 2021, 09:16:55 AM
Don't leave out the ones that should have their tool boxes welded shut.....
:hyst: I have one mate like that. He should never even change a light bulb he will just get electrocuted :hyst:
You know my brother?
:hyst: :hyst: :hyst: