Ok, this happens when I have too much time on my hands, right?
I have an old bottom breathing 1985 EVO that like many, occasionally after a period of sitting will leak oil past the check ball and into the case. (And yes, I have removed, cleaned, inspected ball and spring, even "tapped" the ball lightly while seated over the years with little success.) While not harmful, when it happens we all know it does tend to make a mess on startup as the crank vent is still routed to the Air Cleaner backing plate.
I know the reason for this routing was EPA related, but why would we not just "T" this "vent to atmosphere line" into the oil tank vent line thus closing the loop and allowing the puking oil to recirculate back until properly scavenged and sent back to the tank? :fish:
I am sure there are reasons, just don't know what would happen, and don't usually experiment on things I don't want to find out the hard way... :oops:
And I know, just riding her more often solves the problem too.
Mark
^^ Bad idea to use the oil tank vent for anything else.. While I feel that the routing into the aircleaner is a benefit to evacuating crankcase pressure... it is offset by contaminating the intake Charge...
just run the hose out to the ground and be done!!!!!
I even do that with head breathers!!!
I have a buddy that has a 1968 Triumph chopper that constantly spewed massive amounts of oil out of the crankcase breather hose. Nothing is stock with the oil tank and plumbing. he wanted me to work on it for him ,install an electronic ignition, rebuild the carbs ,replace and relocate the coils etc and fix whatever I found. I decided to change the oil pump with a new one from the original manufacturer, it made no difference. I started looking at original oil line routing for that year of Triumphs and discovered that the crankcase breather hose was routed back to the oil tank and the oil tank vent had a hose routed to the back of the rear fender. I drilled the oil filler cap and installed an elbow fitting in it and attached the breather hose to it. Then the oil vent from the tank at the bottom of the tank I attached a piece of hose and routed it to the ground just below the frame rails. That's been several years ago now ,it still spews oil out of the breather hose, but now the oil is returned to the tank and the air from the crankcase is expelled through the oil tank vent. My buddy rides it hard at times and thanks me every time I see him. Really it was just a grasping at straw thing because nothing else worked.
Never been a fan off whacking on the ball check seat. Use a push rod end and valve lapping compound to refinish the seat, then use a new ball and spring. Also make sure to do this with pump off the bike.
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=53006.msg558966#msg558966
Note that on a Vintage trumpet the return oil line is also restricted at the tank to lube the top end... if done correctly...
I would Not tap into the oil tank Vent with pressure [crankcase vent] on any Harley!!! period!!!
But... Hell try it... maybe it will work for you!!!!!
Yeah the harley oil tank isn't vented to atmosphere like the Triumph chopper oil tank. The welded on cap in the pic covers the vent line which is above the oil level and that vent pipe is the one directly below at the bottom of the tank.
(https://i.postimg.cc/DWwPJFgR/s-l1600-6.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/DWwPJFgR)
Mark, there is "air" coming out the crankcase vent, from cylinder blow by. If you T that line into the oil tank line, the system will be completely closed, with no vent to atmosphere. It will not be long before the oil tank plug goes flying off.
As Racepres says, just route the vent hose down below the frame to the ground. If you are not going to bite the bullet and get a new oil pump or rework the stock one, just put an oil pan below the bike if it's been sitting a while and catch what has wet sumped.
-JW
I've heard that after it happens a couple times, putting a pan under it becomes sop. Much like my parking procedure after a ride on mine.
It's not as had as it looks, that's about a month of riding, maybe 1-2 oz. of tranny oil, but it looks like catastrophic failure.
[attach=0,msg1331413]
just ride more
You've had all winter to replace that SS seal :wink:
Quote from: rigidthumper on January 25, 2020, 12:24:20 PM
You've had all winter to replace that SS seal :wink:
I've had about 5 years or more to replace it. It's on my list...
I actually think it's going in this month. (I know my limitations)
I am not meaning to hijack this thread. I will continue in another. I was just commenting on the procedures we use to deal with issues, rather than do a proper fix.
When I bought my current shovel it was plumbed like that.Case breather to vent line.The guy had also welded in another fitting on top of oil tank for vent. The first thing I did was put a new S&S pump on it.
Yeah, thanks all, if it was just that easy we would have all done that years ago.
An JW, I got to thinking that after I posted, looking at diagrams and seeing then the entire system would be minus a vent.
Mark
Quote from: Mule on January 25, 2020, 07:29:03 AM
I have a buddy that has a 1968 Triumph chopper that constantly spewed massive amounts of oil out of the crankcase breather hose. Nothing is stock with the oil tank and plumbing. he wanted me to work on it for him ,install an electronic ignition, rebuild the carbs ,replace and relocate the coils etc and fix whatever I found. I decided to change the oil pump with a new one from the original manufacturer, it made no difference. I started looking at original oil line routing for that year of Triumphs and discovered that the crankcase breather hose was routed back to the oil tank and the oil tank vent had a hose routed to the back of the rear fender. I drilled the oil filler cap and installed an elbow fitting in it and attached the breather hose to it. Then the oil vent from the tank at the bottom of the tank I attached a piece of hose and routed it to the ground just below the frame rails. That's been several years ago now ,it still spews oil out of the breather hose, but now the oil is returned to the tank and the air from the crankcase is expelled through the oil tank vent. My buddy rides it hard at times and thanks me every time I see him. Really it was just a grasping at straw thing because nothing else worked.
Run the vent line going to grd. close enough to the frt chain sprocket. free chain oiler.
Quote from: Mark222 on January 25, 2020, 06:39:56 AM
Ok, this happens when I have too much time on my hands, right?
I have an old bottom breathing 1985 EVO that like many, occasionally after a period of sitting will leak oil past the check ball and into the case. (And yes, I have removed, cleaned, inspected ball and spring, even "tapped" the ball lightly while seated over the years with little success.) While not harmful, when it happens we all know it does tend to make a mess on startup as the crank vent is still routed to the Air Cleaner backing plate.
I know the reason for this routing was EPA related, but why would we not just "T" this "vent to atmosphere line" into the oil tank vent line thus closing the loop and allowing the puking oil to recirculate back until properly scavenged and sent back to the tank? :fish:
I am sure there are reasons, just don't know what would happen, and don't usually experiment on things I don't want to find out the hard way... :oops:
And I know, just riding her more often solves the problem too.
Mark
Quote from: hogpipes1 on January 26, 2020, 09:56:34 AM
Quote from: Mule on January 25, 2020, 07:29:03 AM
I have a buddy that has a 1968 Triumph chopper that constantly spewed massive amounts of oil out of the crankcase breather hose. Nothing is stock with the oil tank and plumbing. he wanted me to work on it for him ,install an electronic ignition, rebuild the carbs ,replace and relocate the coils etc and fix whatever I found. I decided to change the oil pump with a new one from the original manufacturer, it made no difference. I started looking at original oil line routing for that year of Triumphs and discovered that the crankcase breather hose was routed back to the oil tank and the oil tank vent had a hose routed to the back of the rear fender. I drilled the oil filler cap and installed an elbow fitting in it and attached the breather hose to it. Then the oil vent from the tank at the bottom of the tank I attached a piece of hose and routed it to the ground just below the frame rails. That's been several years ago now ,it still spews oil out of the breather hose, but now the oil is returned to the tank and the air from the crankcase is expelled through the oil tank vent. My buddy rides it hard at times and thanks me every time I see him. Really it was just a grasping at straw thing because nothing else worked.
Run the vent line going to grd. close enough to the frt chain sprocket. free chain oiler.
Same issue with my 85, i have a small K&N breather at the end of the line up high near the tank /side cover. so the line is about 1 ft higher then the bottom case fitting. Keeps from spitting out , Return side of pump picks up what drains back into eng. Winter put away i drain hot oil and don't fill until 1st start up in spring. No oil to drain down from tank all winter . Short term you could also pinch off the tank feed line to the pump with vise grips and a couple pieces of wood paint stick on each side of line. Forget this trick if your oil line is old and briddle. These simple fix work for me everytime .
Quote from: hogpipes1 on January 26, 2020, 09:56:34 AM
Quote from: Mule on January 25, 2020, 07:29:03 AM
I have a buddy that has a 1968 Triumph chopper that constantly spewed massive amounts of oil out of the crankcase breather hose. Nothing is stock with the oil tank and plumbing. he wanted me to work on it for him ,install an electronic ignition, rebuild the carbs ,replace and relocate the coils etc and fix whatever I found. I decided to change the oil pump with a new one from the original manufacturer, it made no difference. I started looking at original oil line routing for that year of Triumphs and discovered that the crankcase breather hose was routed back to the oil tank and the oil tank vent had a hose routed to the back of the rear fender. I drilled the oil filler cap and installed an elbow fitting in it and attached the breather hose to it. Then the oil vent from the tank at the bottom of the tank I attached a piece of hose and routed it to the ground just below the frame rails. That's been several years ago now ,it still spews oil out of the breather hose, but now the oil is returned to the tank and the air from the crankcase is expelled through the oil tank vent. My buddy rides it hard at times and thanks me every time I see him. Really it was just a grasping at straw thing because nothing else worked.
Run the vent line going to grd. close enough to the frt chain sprocket. free chain oiler.
This work's great. I never used a chain oiler on a shovel or pan case. The vent line mist was perfect with no dripping, dirt build-up or cast off when running down the road.
Quote from: Hossamania on January 25, 2020, 12:10:15 PM
I've heard that after it happens a couple times, putting a pan under it becomes sop. Much like my parking procedure after a ride on mine.
It's not as had as it looks, that's about a month of riding, maybe 1-2 oz. of tranny oil, but it looks like catastrophic failure.
[attach=0,msg1331413]
If that is trany juice maybe your pulley is trying to fall off?
When parked after a ride, it leaves a spot about the size of a 50ยข piece, it just looks really bad on that cardboard because that is a good month of rides or more (probably 20 or 30 rides, maybe more) and the cardboard has a waxy finish to it, so it tends to run rather than soak in. It uses about 2 ounces in that time. But I do realize it needs a bit of attention.
If the pulley is trying to fall off and run away, it would not surprise me. I pound on it pretty hard.
How bout putting a manual shut off valve on the feed line to the pump. Turn on the fuel turn on the oil.
I had an 86 electra glide that would puke oil out the breather all the time when started Did all the fixes except replacing the pump too much $$$$ Worked good just don't forget to turn the valve on..........
MIKE
Quote from: MIKEL on January 28, 2020, 08:17:15 AM
How bout putting a manual shut off valve on the feed line to the pump. Turn on the fuel turn on the oil.
I had an 86 electra glide that would puke oil out the breather all the time when started Did all the fixes except replacing the pump too much $$$$ Worked good just don't forget to turn the valve on..........
MIKE
Sometimes I forget to turn the fuel on, even after 25 years of doing it. I would rather not forget to turn the oil on too, a much more dire consequence.
That is why you should have a working oil pressure LIGHT.
Thanks to all......
I have decided to take the initial approach based on Occam's Razor.
I ordered a new HD OEM Ball and Spring for $11.00, may this be the simple yet effective and appropriate fix.
I have had this bike since nearly new, and this is not the first Evo I have had to exhibit this trait.
And it seems to be worse since I ride this bike less, and it is now also older with a ton of miles.
And I don't really want to pull the oil pump at this time, so I will start with the simple things first and see what happens.
Mark
Quote from: MIKEL on January 28, 2020, 08:17:15 AM
How bout putting a manual shut off valve on the feed line to the pump. Turn on the fuel turn on the oil.
I had an 86 electra glide that would puke oil out the breather all the time when started Did all the fixes except replacing the pump too much $$$$ Worked good just don't forget to turn the valve on..........
MIKE
someone said attach the ign key to the tap
Quote from: david lee on January 28, 2020, 12:44:44 PM
Quote from: MIKEL on January 28, 2020, 08:17:15 AM
How bout putting a manual shut off valve on the feed line to the pump. Turn on the fuel turn on the oil.
I had an 86 electra glide that would puke oil out the breather all the time when started Did all the fixes except replacing the pump too much $$$$ Worked good just don't forget to turn the valve on..........
MIKE
someone said attach the ign key to the tap
That may have been me who said that....works like a charm. New spring and ball didn't help a bit and pulling the oil pump compared to the inconvenience of a clamp isn't worth it to me at this time.
OK, so put a barb on your vent line. If the bike has sat for a while, push an extension hose on the barb, put the other end in the oil tank fill, fire the bike and let it run for a while. Shut off, remove extension, go.
Fixed!
-JW
Or a pinch clamp on the feed line when it sits for a while
New spring and ball probably won't fix the issue. Cut the seat like you do with plumbing valves will. A marginal seat might benefit with the hammer method. Or buy a new pump.
Quote from: JW113 on January 28, 2020, 03:50:26 PM
OK, so put a barb on your vent line. If the bike has sat for a while, push an extension hose on the barb, put the other end in the oil tank fill, fire the bike and let it run for a while. Shut off, remove extension, go.
Fixed!
-JW
JW, we think alike. That is exactly what I have been doing, but looking for a better solution.
Mark
OK but Mark, I know you know what "the better solution" is, right?
:SM:
-JW
:embarrassed:
Yeah JW, I do...........
But I spent the $9 bucks on the new spring and ball a while back, so I dropped them in today. Gave me something to do on a gloomy Saturday, even if the odds of curing the leak by is slim. (Can't tell some guys anything, lol)
Thanks to all.... I know what I need to do......
Mark
by just droping in a new ball and spring stop bi pass seepage
Dave...! Pot is legal here in California now... but I'm coming down to Oz to party with youze guyz. Evidently a lot more potent than what we'z got.
:SM:
:hyst:
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on February 01, 2020, 06:28:32 PM
Dave...! Pot is legal here in California now... but I'm coming down to Oz to party with youze guyz. Evidently a lot more potent than what we'z got.
:SM:
:hyst:
-JW
never touched the stuff
I didn't inhale. :idunno:
On my 1991 Softail I pull the crankcase breather line from the carb,put an extension on it and feed it into a drain pan when starting after sitting too long. If the crankcase has too much oil in it the puking will stop after a few minutes and I reconnect the line. The Evo's really should be warm(ish) before riding anyway.
Roland
Not related to the OP, but seems the thread has drifted. Here is the fix to shovel & evo cases filling with oil.
http://www.bigboyzheadporting.com/showthread.php?t=87 (http://www.bigboyzheadporting.com/showthread.php?t=87)
As always, straight to the point. :up: :up:
Quote from: rol427 on March 14, 2020, 12:54:49 PM
The Evo's really should be warm(ish) before riding anyway.
As long as you don't idle it to "warm it up", the pistons need oil......
Best to just ride it away and be nice to it until the oil tank is hot.
Then ride it like you stole it! :chop:
Quote from: Burnout on March 14, 2020, 03:03:25 PM
Quote from: rol427 on March 14, 2020, 12:54:49 PM
The Evo's really should be warm(ish) before riding anyway.
As long as you don't idle it to "warm it up", the pistons need oil......
Best to just ride it away and be nice to it until the oil tank is hot.
Then ride it like you stole it! :chop:
Pretty much the best advice for ALL motors, no matter the vehicle.
Quote from: Burnout on March 14, 2020, 03:03:25 PM
Quote from: rol427 on March 14, 2020, 12:54:49 PM
The Evo's really should be warm(ish) before riding anyway.
As long as you don't idle it to "warm it up", the pistons need oil......
Best to just ride it away and be nice to it until the oil tank is hot.
Then ride it like you stole it! :chop:
I always idle at 'full choke' until the rear rocker cover is warm. It's a pretty high idle, but I do still baby it the first couple miles.
.... :gob: :agree:...should be a sticky.. :oil:
"I always idle at 'full choke' until the rear rocker cover is warm."
This is extreme, probably wasteful and may blacken the oil prematurely.
Although, that is better than partially closing the enrichener to slow the motor which results in a super rich condition.
You don't need to "warm it up".
There is no benefit, it actually warms up faster if you ride it away.
Just don't hammer it or wring it out until the oil tank is warm.
I don't use the enrichener any longer than it takes to get the plugs warm enough that it won't stall.
I have to say, I rarely let mine idle a full minute unless it's really cold out ('20s), usually close to 30 seconds. Then a gentle ride until warm, working the choke slowly in after a mile or so. I don't think I have ever checked my rocker box for heat. Not saying it's right, it's just what I do.
I have heard that Evos like a little extra heat at startup to prevent base gasket leaks. Six, you are probably right on the money with your method.
I have also forgotten to push the choke in (it sticks the first time when cold, then automatically goes in) and ridden quite a few miles with no ill effects, though I feel like an idiot when I do it, and it's not ideal.
I tried the lapping method from Big Boys.Did not work in my case.76 FLH.Had to buy a new pump. Yes evos need warming before riding.Because once the base gaskets leak they continue to leak no matter what you do.
EVO base gaskets leak because the MoCo took shortcuts on machining the bottom of the cylinder.
The head gasket would leak before the base on a cold motor if that were true.
Prolonged idling is not good for your HD.
Actually don't listen to me, there are HD mechanics that need to pay their rent. I don't want to be blamed for them not getting as many top end jobs.
My 87 has many many miles (100K?) on it (and has been beaten like an ugly stepchild) yet still has the original pistons and rings and shows no signs of giving up.
I have replaced the crap base and rocker gaskets it came with, 7 years ago....
Quote from: Burnout on March 17, 2020, 08:46:45 AM
Prolonged idling is not good for your HD.
Actually don't listen to me, there are HD mechanics that need to pay their rent. I don't want to be blamed for them not getting as many top end jobs.
You're always making too much sense. :agree:
And not to say everything Harley prints is gospel. But here's a clip out of the starting procedure out of a 92 owners manual I have on PDF. Think I seen it in every one and the service manuals also maybe before injection.
[attach=0]
The service manual instructions are for stock engines=cast pistons. Those with forged require a little longer warm up. maybe "require" is the wrong word, but that's what I do with forged.
Quote from: cheech on March 17, 2020, 02:39:03 PM
Quote from: Burnout on March 17, 2020, 08:46:45 AM
Prolonged idling is not good for your HD.
Actually don't listen to me, there are HD mechanics that need to pay their rent. I don't want to be blamed for them not getting as many top end jobs.
You're always making too much sense. :agree:
And not to say everything Harley prints is gospel. But here's a clip out of the starting procedure out of a 92 owners manual I have on PDF. Think I seen it in every one and the service manuals also maybe before injection.
[attach=0,msg1337540]
This is the way I've always done it. The 15 to 30 second idle, then ride instruction is the one I have always tried pass on.
Quote from: Deye76 on March 17, 2020, 04:19:22 PM
The service manual instructions are for stock engines=cast pistons. Those with forged require a little longer warm up. maybe "require" is the wrong word, but that's what I do with forged.
Fair enough, but I think they'll be just fine as long as you're moderate.
Quote from: Hossamania on March 17, 2020, 05:12:46 PM
This is the way I've always done it. The 15 to 30 second idle, then ride instruction is the one I have always tried pass on.
Lol, Early mornings to be courteous I don't even make it that long. Never have chance to sit and idle. Driveway separates neighbors house and mine, about 10 feet wide. Garage behind house, push bike about 100 feet to hill at end of drive. Roll it down hill, crank it up while coasting into street, in gear, clutch out, just high idle to first light about 50 yards away. By time traffic goes, fins have some heat. On the rev limiter getting on highway about another quarter of a mile. All with forged pistons. Maybe they'll look like crap when/if ever it's tore down. :nix: