After a year of frustration, I decided to replace my Mueller Power Clutch ramps with the stock parts. I discovered that the throw-out bearing race had broken apart, and the individual roller bearings were just floating between the support halves at various angles. Fortunately, the bearings hadn't escaped the race, but a couple of the tiny prongs broke off and were lost. I had heard that this was a possibility with the Mueller because of the very small freeplay setting required.
The main reason that I'm replacing it is because I could never get it to work consistently. When it was working, it was great with much reduced lever pull. Unfortunately, I found that I had to re-adjust the clutch every couple of months, and that finally got old. Neutral became impossible to find, and it started to drag. It was so bad that I kept the necessary tools on a corner of the bench just to keep them handy.
Now I'm thinking about installing a VPC, hoping it will make the pull a little easier and I'll finally be able to find neutral once in a while. :dgust:
Get the AIM and don't look back.
The stock throw out bearing is fine if it's not tight. Keep 1/16 to 1/8 of a inch of slack at the clutch lever perch and you will be good.
QuoteNow I'm thinking about installing a VPC, hoping it will make the pull a little easier and I'll finally be able to find neutral once in a while.
I'd not can the Mueller Ramps, I run the Mueller and a VPC and IMO it all boils down to 'how you adjust the clutch'
stock throw out wafer bearings have been disintegrating since they were first introduced back in the '70's
the OEM in my 03 Fatty went at 56K
in this pic the inside faces of the thrust washers are toward the camera and the wear is pronounced on both,
(https://i.imgur.com/vFp5Ro8.jpeg)
in this pic the outside faces of the thrust washers are toward the camera, you can see the machining marks from when they were ground flat at birth and on the one to the left you can see the circular polish mark where it was up against the slinger.
(https://i.imgur.com/Vgt0WK2.jpg)
For those interested I researched a Timken replacement early in '09 for another project, read
HERE (http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,9807.msg100536.html#msg100536), the basics are below. I guess it's off to the Bearing Shop for a new bearing & washers.
Timken P/N NTA-411 is the Throw out bearing
ID : .250"
OD: .687"
W : .0781"
Timken P/N TRC-411 is the thrust washer
ID : .250"
OD: .687"
W : .092" min .095" max"
The thrust washers are available in other thicknesses, for other purposes.
TRA-411 is W : .030" min .032" max"
TRB-411 is W : .060" min .063" max"
I put my own Heavy Duty Throwout Bearing together, Baker has also came out with a heavy duty throwout, both Berts and mine require the recess in the inner ramp to be enlarged and deepened to accommodate the increased diameter thrust washer
I also run a Shovel Spring over the inner cable to ensure the inner ramp returns to it's home position.
The spring goes over the inner cable so that it pushes the ball ramp assembly back into position when the clutch lever is released.
(https://i.imgur.com/8scPDUp.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/KxuGmcZ.jpg)
Note the lack of Dipstick :SM:
clipimage.jpg
And that is because the spring will eventually chew it off anyways. :embarrassed:
Quote from: FSG on May 09, 2019, 07:05:04 PMQuoteNow I'm thinking about installing a VPC, hoping it will make the pull a little easier and I'll finally be able to find neutral once in a while.
I'd not can the Mueller Ramps, I run the Mueller and a VPC and IMO it all boils down to 'how you adjust the clutch'
stock throw out wafer bearings have been disintegrating since they were first introduced back in the '70's
the OEM in my 03 Fatty went at 56K
in this pic the inside faces of the thrust washers are toward the camera and the wear is pronounced on both,
(https://i.imgur.com/vFp5Ro8.jpeg)
in this pic the outside faces of the thrust washers are toward the camera, you can see the machining marks from when they were ground flat at birth and on the one to the left you can see the circular polish mark where it was up against the slinger.
(https://i.imgur.com/Vgt0WK2.jpg)
For those interested I researched a Timken replacement early in '09 for another project, read HERE (http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,9807.msg100536.html#msg100536), the basics are below. I guess it's off to the Bearing Shop for a new bearing & washers.
Timken P/N NTA-411 is the Throw out bearing
ID : .250"
OD: .687"
W : .0781"
Timken P/N TRC-411 is the thrust washer
ID : .250"
OD: .687"
W : .092" min .095" max"
The thrust washers are available in other thicknesses, for other purposes.
TRA-411 is W : .030" min .032" max"
TRB-411 is W : .060" min .063" max"
I put my own Heavy Duty Throwout Bearing together, Baker has also came out with a heavy duty throwout, both Berts and mine require the recess in the inner ramp to be enlarged and deepened to accommodate the increased diameter thrust washer
I also run a Shovel Spring over the inner cable to ensure the inner ramp returns to it's home position.
The spring goes over the inner cable so that it pushes the ball ramp assembly back into position when the clutch lever is released.
(https://i.imgur.com/8scPDUp.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/KxuGmcZ.jpg)
:agree: Me and others I know are using the Muller arm with good success. The spring FSG shows is a great help in cable retraction to allow the fine free play adjustment. It also helps not to have a worn out cable or clutch handle bushings. Your pressure plate must be level if of the billet design and not warped if OEM. I think those with issues may have worn components or poorly adjusted parts contributing to their woes or are not nailing it on the adjustment. Remember that as the clutch warms up the minimum free play increases. Once set it should not change in the direction to cause it to drag no matter what release mechanism you use.
This year I added an Oberon adjustable clutch lever which increased the pressure plate lift by about 15% (.058 to .065 0r 6 ) or more giving just shy of .070 release. Bandit wants .070 and mine worked fine at .058. One of the things I like about the Muller Power Clutch (aside fro the 40% lighter pull with my heavily sprung billet Bandit plate :wink: ) is the way the friction zone is more centered in the travel and is wider. In my experience, this allows greater control in parking lots, city driving and leaving a stopped position.
Just to re-clarify, when the Mueller was working, I was very happy with it. The problem stemmed from the fact that it wouldn't remain properly adjusted for very long. The adjustment procedure I used worked fine, albeit the cable freeplay was less than I would have liked. This is why the throwout bearing failed. The big difference for me was that the stock adjustment remained stable for up to a year without touching it, while the Mueller needed frequent re-adjusting. The annoyance wasn't worth the easier pull. For those who are happy with the Mueller long-term, I'm happy for you. It just didn't work for me. Thanks for the info though.
Quote from: Jim Bronson on May 09, 2019, 06:02:28 PM
After a year of frustration, I decided to replace my Mueller Power Clutch ramps with the stock parts. I discovered that the throw-out bearing race had broken apart, and the individual roller bearings were just floating between the support halves at various angles. Fortunately, the bearings hadn't escaped the race, but a couple of the tiny prongs broke off and were lost. I had heard that this was a possibility with the Mueller because of the very small freeplay setting required.
The main reason that I'm replacing it is because I could never get it to work consistently. When it was working, it was great with much reduced lever pull. Unfortunately, I found that I had to re-adjust the clutch every couple of months, and that finally got old. Neutral became impossible to find, and it started to drag. It was so bad that I kept the necessary tools on a corner of the bench just to keep them handy.
Now I'm thinking about installing a VPC, hoping it will make the pull a little easier and I'll finally be able to find neutral once in a while. :dgust:
Were you using the heavy duty, larger Baker throw out bearing? That is what I use with mu Muller and no problems. The ramp does need to be machined for the bearing.
Quote from: Jim Bronson on May 09, 2019, 09:31:15 PM
Just to re-clarify, when the Mueller was working, I was very happy with it. The problem stemmed from the fact that it wouldn't remain properly adjusted for very long. The adjustment procedure I used worked fine, albeit the cable freeplay was less than I would have liked. This is why the throwout bearing failed. The big difference for me was that the stock adjustment remained stable for up to a year without touching it, while the Mueller needed frequent re-adjusting. The annoyance wasn't worth the easier pull. For those who are happy with the Mueller long-term, I'm happy for you. It just didn't work for me. Thanks for the info though.
Jim, do you think the bearing could have been slowly failing before you put the Muller arm in? It seems to me that having to adjust the OEM clutch every year is an indicator of a problem. I never have to adjust mine on 3 different post 98 touring bikes. Granted sharing the mileage out lowers the yearly accumulation but never having to adjust them tells a different story than your experience. BTW, I am quite abusive even with the 2 sidecar rigs.
I should mention that I did replace a cable a couple of years ago, so that accounts for a couple of adjustments over the period.
I didn't use a baker bearing, as I have no way to machine the ramp. It seems to me that if Baker wants to sell upgraded bearings, they should offer machined ramps along with them.
QuoteIt seems to me that if Baker wants to sell upgraded bearings, they should offer machined ramps along with them.
they do and if they are not the ramps you want then you can send them yours which they will machine
this has come up before, I've machined ramps for some here in Oz and I know of a few instances here on HTT where a machinist has stepped up and machined ramps for another member
I run the Mueller ramps and had mine machined to accept the Baker heavy duty throw out bearing and I also use the shovel return spring. I run a Bandit clutch and I couldn't be happier with the clutch lever pull and the smooth engagement of my clutch.
I'd take FSG's advice and not give up on the Mueller ramps. Have yours machined for the Baker heavy duty throw out bearing and try it again. I think your stock throw out bearing is what was giving you the problems all along.
I definitely agree with FSG. I've run a Mueller on my 2010 and 2013 FLHTKs. I've also installed at least a dozen for other people.
All the people I've installed for were skills competitors (both motorcops and civilians). With constant friction zone operation, the Mueller widened the friction zone and lessened the effort.
And almost all I installed were combined with a VPC. The two together work fantastically.
Ken
Quote from: FSG on May 09, 2019, 07:05:04 PMQuoteNow I'm thinking about installing a VPC, hoping it will make the pull a little easier and I'll finally be able to find neutral once in a while.
I'd not can the Mueller Ramps, I run the Mueller and a VPC and IMO it all boils down to 'how you adjust the clutch'
stock throw out wafer bearings have been disintegrating since they were first introduced back in the '70's
the OEM in my 03 Fatty went at 56K
in this pic the inside faces of the thrust washers are toward the camera and the wear is pronounced on both,
(https://i.imgur.com/vFp5Ro8.jpeg)
in this pic the outside faces of the thrust washers are toward the camera, you can see the machining marks from when they were ground flat at birth and on the one to the left you can see the circular polish mark where it was up against the slinger.
(https://i.imgur.com/Vgt0WK2.jpeg)
For those interested I researched a Timken replacement early in '09 for another project, read HERE (http://www.harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,9807.msg100536.html#msg100536), the basics are below. I guess it's off to the Bearing Shop for a new bearing & washers.
Timken P/N NTA-411 is the Throw out bearing
ID : .250"
OD: .687"
W : .0781"
Timken P/N TRC-411 is the thrust washer
ID : .250"
OD: .687"
W : .092" min .095" max"
The thrust washers are available in other thicknesses, for other purposes.
TRA-411 is W : .030" min .032" max"
TRB-411 is W : .060" min .063" max"
I put my own Heavy Duty Throwout Bearing together, Baker has also came out with a heavy duty throwout, both Berts and mine require the recess in the inner ramp to be enlarged and deepened to accommodate the increased diameter thrust washer
I also run a Shovel Spring over the inner cable to ensure the inner ramp returns to it's home position.
The spring goes over the inner cable so that it pushes the ball ramp assembly back into position when the clutch lever is released.
(https://i.imgur.com/8scPDUp.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/KxuGmcZ.jpeg)
Here's another option. It only replaces the fixed plate and comes in three flavors with different pull forces. The other plate would still have to be machined for the Baker bearing, and that means sending them the Muller plate.
http://www.clutchlite.de/en_home.html
I'm just sticking with stock for now, and I'll possibly buy a VPC. I wish it wasn't such a hassle to remove the tranny cover.
Quote from: Jim Bronson on May 10, 2019, 08:50:42 PM
Here's another option. It only replaces the fixed plate and comes in three flavors with different pull forces. The other plate would still have to be machined for the Baker bearing, and that means sending them the Muller plate.
http://www.clutchlite.de/en_home.html
I'm just sticking with stock for now, and I'll possibly buy a VPC. I wish it wasn't such a hassle to remove the tranny cover.
So the 3 flavors relate to 3 different ramp angles, considering HD ramps are/have been 15, 16, 18, 21 and now 19 I wonder what the 3 flavors are.
Keep in mind that the Mueller Ramps have a smaller PCD than the HD Ramps so I say the Clutchlite Ramp isn't compatible with the Mueller.
Quote from: FSG on May 10, 2019, 09:23:56 PM
Keep in mind that the Mueller Ramps have a smaller PCD than the HD Ramps so I say the Clutchlite Ramp isn't compatible with the Mueller.
I think you're right. It couldn't be compatible, but perhaps it comes close to the Muller when used with the stock inner ramp. Either way, a more robust bearing would be a good idea. Maybe I'll rethink this in a few months when I have some time on my hands and it is raining again.
these are Sportster Ramps but you can see the PCD difference
(https://i.imgur.com/qJmu5cv.png)
Quote from: FSG on May 10, 2019, 11:59:49 PM
these are Sportster Ramps but you can see the PCD difference
(https://i.imgur.com/qJmu5cv.png)
So with the Mueller, the ramps ar closer together. Seems to me that when the arm get pulled on the plate is less stable and can cock / not stay parallel. That cocking will load the bearing unevenly causing higher pressure in one location. The higher pressure kills the bearing. I guess you can go to a bigger bearing but this is beginning to sound like one fix creates another problem.
Good point Max. I think that's another reason to be sure none of the clutch actuating components are worn and have excessive play. Over time, the bearing may become a service item (much like lifters with high pressure valve springs) for those of us that are using the Muller arm with big power and heavy clutch spring settings.
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on May 11, 2019, 06:57:49 AM
So with the Mueller, the ramps ar closer together. Seems to me that when the arm get pulled on the plate is less stable and can cock / not stay parallel. That cocking will load the bearing unevenly causing higher pressure in one location. The higher pressure kills the bearing. I guess you can go to a bigger bearing but this is beginning to sound like one fix creates another problem.
negligible difference over stock IMO
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=103185.msg
Quote from: FSG on May 11, 2019, 11:09:50 AM
Quote from: Admiral Akbar on May 11, 2019, 06:57:49 AM
So with the Mueller, the ramps ar closer together. Seems to me that when the arm get pulled on the plate is less stable and can cock / not stay parallel. That cocking will load the bearing unevenly causing higher pressure in one location. The higher pressure kills the bearing. I guess you can go to a bigger bearing but this is beginning to sound like one fix creates another problem.
negligible difference over stock IMO
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=103185.msg
Well IMO, sliding to the side and rubbing is way different than cocking. 10mm balls might correct some of that.
Quote10mm balls might correct some of that.
I doubt an increase of 18 thou would do anything ?
What says the recess in the CLUTCH RELEASE COVER for the outer ramp is parallel with the gasket face of the cover?
Nothing
What says the recess in the INNER RAMP is parallel with the gasket face of the cover?
Nothing
Lots of things affect the load and wear of the wafer bearing.
Cocking ....... not going to happen IMO when you have a reasonable clutch diaphragm spring pushing back against the ramp.
Quote from: FSG on May 11, 2019, 06:54:05 PM
Quote10mm balls might correct some of that.
I doubt an increase of 18 thou would do anything ?
What says the recess in the CLUTCH RELEASE COVER for the outer ramp is parallel with the gasket face of the cover?
Nothing
What says the recess in the INNER RAMP is parallel with the gasket face of the cover?
Nothing
Lots of things affect the load and wear of the wafer bearing.
Cocking ....... not going to happen IMO when you have a reasonable clutch diaphragm spring pushing back against the ramp.
So cutting the side play in the slot by 0.018 isn't enough to keep the rotating plate from hitting the side of the slot?
So they don't machine the gasket surface and ramp seat in the same operation?
Which stool is more stable. One with 3 legs on an 18 inch circle or 1 with 3 legs on a 12 inch circle? Remember the cable is trying to pull the plate sideways.
Question to you guys that have had throw out bearings wear out or fail. Do you hold the clutch in with the trans in gear at stop lights?
I ask because in all my years of riding these things, even with heavy duty clutch diaphragms, never had a stock throw out bearing wear out or break.
-JW
NOW you've done it !! :kick: :hyst:
Quote from: JW113 on May 12, 2019, 09:38:12 AMQuestion to you guys that have had throw out bearings wear out or fail. Do you hold the clutch in with the trans in gear at stop lights?
I ask because in all my years of riding these things, even with heavy duty clutch diaphragms, never had a stock throw out bearing wear out or break.
-JW
I had the factory throw out bearing go bad while the bike was on the dyno. It made the clutch p/rod so hot it welded itself to the slinger.
clutch rod.jpg
I keep my clutch in and in gear at most stops (a train or drawbridge might be an exception) Never thought about it. I did replace the bearing and 2 thrust washers about 50K ago cause I was replacing a clutch cable. The old stuff that came out was fine. Wife at the time talked about making a necklace pendent out of the bearing (but never did).
Quote from: JW113 on May 12, 2019, 09:38:12 AM
Question to you guys that have had throw out bearings wear out or fail. Do you hold the clutch in with the trans in gear at stop lights?
I ask because in all my years of riding these things, even with heavy duty clutch diaphragms, never had a stock throw out bearing wear out or break.
-JW
I usually kept the bike in gear at signal lights when I had the Muller installed because by he time I found neutral, the light had changed.
I guess you have faster light change cycles then I do. Around here, if you miss the green light on or across an expressway, you're sitting for a good 2 minutes or more. I usually pop into neutral while rolling up to the light, not try to find it after already stopped...
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on May 12, 2019, 03:46:20 PM
I guess you have faster light change cycles then I do. Around here, if you miss the green light on or across an expressway, you're sitting for a good 2 minutes or more. I usually pop into neutral while rolling up to the light, not try to find it after already stopped...
-JW
Wow that would be an eternity around here. There's one or two lights around here that may be close to that during the commute.
Hey kd....post a pic of the Oberon lever installed. Looks kinda ooogly but if it works I'm gonna get one.
Not the best pic on the lift but you can get the idea. I don't find it ugly at all. In fact I doubt that many will notice.
ED8FA8FF-61B2-4B4E-8B0A-2E2AE432572C.jpg
:up: That's not bad at all! I'm still having a bit of drag but I know I have lost some release due to a little movement in the trap door bearing on my SE six OD giving me end play in the main shaft. If I can pick up a bit more release it'll save me a tear down in the not so near future.
Measure your pressure plate travel before and after an you'll know how much you gain. I know I had a realistic number in mind I was hoping for and I got it. I have a new Barnett clutch cable to go on and I hope that makes it even better. My present cable has 65,000 miles on it.
Measured mine last winter. I also have a SE OD6. I have had very good luck with the Muller (I do have the baker throw out bearing). No drag, easy neutral. Once in a great while a very minor clash 2nd to 3rd but if being more authoritative with my foot I don't get it (I do not use a heel shifter). I have run Formula + in the primary for years. This year I put in Mobil1 10w-40 MC synthetic oil. I did this once years ago and it was very smooth. Put on quite a few miles last weekend between the rain and undesirable temps. Same result, very smooth with the M1 10w-40. No clash either.
I also measured the throw out from the center of the allen screw adjuster. Same reading.