Anybody use this in their M8 trans? If so what are your impressions?
https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/heavy-synthetic-gear-oil
Interesting. I knew they had it but hadn't read their recommendations til now. It appears it is now their recommended syn chain case lube. I wonder if Formula One is going away?
check reply #4 in particular, from Maddo Snr
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=108075.msg1286771#msg1286771
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 17, 2019, 05:44:31 PM
check reply #4 in particular, from Maddo Snr
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=108075.msg1286771#msg1286771
Maddo Snr's response relates to putting 80W 140 synthetic gear oil in the primary, not the transmission.
Quote from: Norton Commando on May 18, 2019, 06:33:34 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 17, 2019, 05:44:31 PM
check reply #4 in particular, from Maddo Snr
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=108075.msg1286771#msg1286771
Maddo Snr's response relates to putting 80W 140 synthetic gear oil in the primary, not the transmission.
I believe 98's post was in response to my statement in reply #1 that Harley is recommending it for primary use as well as gear box.
I don't understand how any "gear oil" could be used in the primary under cold "extreme temperature environments."
$19.95 a quart on the moco site. I don't know what dealers are charging for it. No thanks.
Isn't it a bit ironic that this product advertised as a use in tranny and primary lube, pops up shortly after all the transfer issues do?
75W-90 gear oil is about the same viscosity as 10W-40 engine oil. You do not want a high viscosity oil in the primary.
Quote from: Ancient on May 18, 2019, 07:04:58 AM
$19.95 a quart on the moco site. I don't know what dealers are charging for it. No thanks.
Isn't it a bit ironic that this product advertised as a use in tranny and primary lube, pops up shortly after all the transfer issues do?
Yeah, I thought about the same. Maybe the long range plan is to put a tube between the two and just keep one oil level...... If they used the right lubricant, that could do that.
I've been using Bel-Ray gear saver 75wt for years in the primary of my two bikes. Works great, clutch loves it. HD transmissions have lived running 20w50 synthetic oil, so they don't really need super heavy weight lube. Although motor oil isn't the best solution.
An oil about the same viscosity as motor oil with hypoid additives is fine however. Not a shockproof heavy fan
just me thinking out loud here.
In my opinion the transmission has gears meshing in it, and the primary that has clutch disks in it, each need a specific lube for each job their doing.
I've ran Spectro 85W in my primary with great clutch engagement, and I've ran Lucas synthetic 75w140 gear oil in my tranny for years...with excellent results.
The new Harley 80w140 lube might be an option for the tranny...but I would have a hard time putting it in the primary. I'd want a product more specific for it.
Agreed but a light hypoid can do great in both. One without posi additives.
Here is one multipurpose oil that will work in both.
Maybe that is Harleys fix on the M8, shared sump?
https://www.schaefferoil.com/primary-lube.html
Quote from: kd on May 18, 2019, 06:36:39 AM
Quote from: Norton Commando on May 18, 2019, 06:33:34 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 17, 2019, 05:44:31 PM
check reply #4 in particular, from Maddo Snr
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=108075.msg1286771#msg1286771
Maddo Snr's response relates to putting 80W 140 synthetic gear oil in the primary, not the transmission.
I believe 98's post was in response to my statement in reply #1 that Harley is recommending it for primary use as well as gear box.
Oops, you're correct, my mistake.
Jason
Harley's description of this lubricant states that the viscosity is lower at cold temperatures and higher at operating temp. Sounds good but I would be hesitant to put it in my bike even though I wouldn't mind getting it a bit quieter. I am afraid it might mess up clutch function.
kk
Don't Sportsters use the same oil for primary and transmission?
Well my thinking is to use the new HD 80w 140 in my M8 trans and continue to use Formula+ in the primary. That way if I ever get trans to primary migration I know the new HD gear oil won't adversely affect my clutch. At least that is my thinking as of now.
:idunno:
Quote from: smoserx1 on May 18, 2019, 12:34:26 PM
Don't Sportsters use the same oil for primary and transmission?
Yes
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 17, 2019, 05:44:31 PM
check reply #4 in particular, from Maddo Snr
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=108075.msg1286771#msg1286771
Well that's a no thanks then.
QuoteInteresting. I knew they had it but hadn't read their recommendations til now. It appears it is now their recommended syn chain case lube. I wonder if Formula One is going away?
Here might be an answer to that:
https://www.harley-davidson.com/store/quart---formula--transmission-and-primary-chaincase-lubricant
Might go see if I can find some locally. I am not paying 20 dollars a quart for anything unless I can leave it in for life.
I think I paid $18 for Spectro tranny gear lube. They are not giving any of that stuff away anymore.
All of the syn gear oils are priced high and at similar levels. :nix:
Quote from: Slider1950 on May 18, 2019, 06:23:26 PM
Well my thinking is to use the new HD 80w 140 in my M8 trans and continue to use Formula+ in the primary. That way if I ever get trans to primary migration I know the new HD gear oil won't adversely affect my clutch. At least that is my thinking as of now.
See reply #18. It looks like Formula Qne is being discontinued and the MOCO is discounting stock to get rid of it.
$20 a year for trans lube isn't horrible.
Some guys spend that in an hour, drinkin...
I had local dealer do the 1000 mile on my new limited just last Tuesday, a week ago. I told service adviser SYN3 in primary and engine and the new 80/140 gear in the tranny. The service person did not know of it! I went up front got a quart and handed it to him, told him 'here it is and it's what I want in my tranny'.
Seems fine, I have ridden a thousand miles. So now I can (or likely not) buy Harley transmission oil.
I've use Mobil 1 20/50 in all 3 holes for years now. I change primary (dirtiest oil case on our bike) and engine at 4000 miles, tranny at 20,000 or so.
Quote from: kd on May 19, 2019, 06:41:48 AM
All of the syn gear oils are priced high and at similar levels. :nix:
If you look at syn gear lubes in local auto parts store, you will find that 75w90 is about half the price of 75w140, same brand.
Anybody here wearing out gears by using 75w90?
I've been using mobile1 75w-90LS syn in several 5sp transmissions for years. More than a couple hundred thousand miles with no issues. Not going to go to a dealer to buy lubricants
However, would never put that in the transfer case. For that I like Bel-Ray gear saver. Either 75w or 80w. Whatever is available. Haven't noticed any difference
Quote from: rigidthumper on May 19, 2019, 06:47:07 AM
$20 a year for trans lube isn't horrible.
Some guys spend that in an hour, drinkin...
slow drinkers :SM:
Quote from: Dan89flstc on May 19, 2019, 06:53:50 AM
Quote from: kd on May 19, 2019, 06:41:48 AM
All of the syn gear oils are priced high and at similar levels. :nix:
If you look at syn gear lubes in local auto parts store, you will find that 75w90 is about half the price of 75w140, same brand.
Anybody here wearing out gears by using 75w90?
If they are, it's not the oil. :wink:
Ron
I run 75w-140 Walmart full synthetic for $11.25 + tax. Works great for me on my '17 RK.
Bigs
What does Harley recommend for primary now that Formula Plus May be discontinued.
Quote from: Bagger on May 20, 2019, 05:38:01 AM
What does Harley recommend for primary now that Formula Plus May be discontinued.
Who says it is being discontinued??
Quote from: Dan89flstc on May 19, 2019, 06:53:50 AM
Quote from: kd on May 19, 2019, 06:41:48 AM
All of the syn gear oils are priced high and at similar levels. :nix:
If you look at syn gear lubes in local auto parts store, you will find that 75w90 is about half the price of 75w140, same brand.
Anybody here wearing out gears by using 75w90?
Nope, run the 75/90 in a 2005 5 speed. Riding temps here in northern Indiana normally 50- 85 degrees outdoors. I don`t see a need for the 75/140 at twice the cost. Run 10/ 40 motorcycle oil for wet clutches in the primary.
Quote from: Dan89flstc on May 20, 2019, 06:15:16 AM
Quote from: Bagger on May 20, 2019, 05:38:01 AM
What does Harley recommend for primary now that Formula Plus May be discontinued.
Who says it is being discontinued??
Looks like Harley says.
cling
https://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=108075.msg1297912#new
I used to use Valvoline SynPower full synthetic gear oil 75w-90 for $10/quart at the local auto parts place...
Their 75W-140 is $12/quart delivered from Amazon...
I was staying up nights wondering if I should use 90 or 140. I went with 75-110 amsoil.
Well don't loose sleep over it :hyst: :hyst:
OK I have never had to think much about it till now. For you folks that don't use Harley branded oils in the trans and primary, use a GL-5 gear lube in the transmission and an oil in the primary that does not say "resource" or "energy" conserving on that little round symbol on the container? I am thinking those are the ones with the friction modifiers that can make the clutch slip? Thanks in advance.
Harleyhighwayman you're not doing yourself any favors using engine oil in the tranny. Gears put a lot more stress called "shear" on oil than rings do. You can get away with what you are doing for a while but you'll pay the price.
To those that want to run synthetic oil in their tranny, trannys usually don't get hot enough to benefit from the high heat tolerance of synthetic oil. Is there something else I'm missing?
PC
No, other than we are all crazy! :hyst:
some of the benefits a good synthetic gear oil will give you in the tranny.
[attach=0,msg1298645]
I'll stick with BelRay VTwin Transmission Lube. Works well for me, smooth shifts and less clunking.
kk
The oil cost thing cracks me up, a steak sandwich can cost more and it goes down the waste shute way quicker than you dump the oil, it's not a factor in my book anyway.
I agree. In the whole scheme of things oil it cheapest thing you will ever buy for your bike. Hell 2 or 3 tanks of gas can cost as much as an oil change, if you do it yourself.
QuoteThe oil cost thing cracks me up, a steak sandwich can cost more and it goes down the waste shute way quicker than you dump the oil, it's not a factor in my book anyway.
I'll take a bite at this since I was the one who said I would not pay $20 a quart for gear oil earlier in this thread. I have a very old FLHT with 208000 miles on the clock. The transmission has never been apart. I have had to replace a clutch hub once but its failure point was metal fatigue, not oil. I have always used Harley branded lubricants in these 2 areas (formula + and the products that preceded it), and these products were always reasonably priced. Now it appears this lubricant MAY be discontinued and replaced with something that costs twice as much. It is not that I can't afford it, I certainly can. I just WON'T pay it, especially if I can get a similar product for about 60% of that price. That's the rebel in me.
For years I have been using Mobil 1 15W50 in the engine. I just bought a 5 quart jug for $22.83. That is about half the cost of the v-twin stuff (and about 1/3 the cost of syn3 or amsoil). I am not planning to buy another bike (never say never) but at the rate this one is going it seems I am going to wear out before it does. So how much better do lubricants need to be than what I use???
About 15 years ago, an acquaintance asked if there was cheaper oil available, he didn't like paying almost $5 a quart for Harley oil. I told him about Rotella diesel oil, almost $4 a quart. He was very happy. He changed oil once a year. Saved himself a whole $4.
I also agree, the Formula+ worked just fine, no need to double the price for a "better" product.
These threads are funny! All this discussion over oil, meanwhile, here at the dealership we see damn near every brand of oil, and with the exception of (possibly) one, we never see oil related failures. a few years ago our service manager sent oil samples in to Blackstone over the winter, HD oil, mobile one, redline, Klotz and several more,, all tested great, all had lots of life left in them, I mean really, think about this we all change oil way sooner than needed.. BTW, I am not going to mention the oil in question as that will start another "Potty mouth" storm here.. :smile:
Yup, Tomcat you are correct on the oil changes.
Over the years I have sent in a few samples from my Harley to Blackstone, they all had over 7,500 miles on them. Every time Blackstone told me to run it another 2,000 miles and send in a sample as the oil was in great condition. Of course I changed to oil at that time. It kills me the guys running synthetic and changing every 2,500 miles!
Quote from: tomcat64 on May 23, 2019, 06:09:25 AM
These threads are funny! All this discussion over oil, meanwhile, here at the dealership we see damn near every brand of oil, and with the exception of (possibly) one, we never see oil related failures. a few years ago our service manager sent oil samples in to Blackstone over the winter, HD oil, mobile one, redline, Klotz and several more,, all tested great, all had lots of life left in them, I mean really, think about this we all change oil way sooner than needed.. BTW, I am not going to mention the oil in question as that will start another "Potty mouth" storm here.. :smile:
Did it rhyme with Sickly Wally?
Lubricants are an individual thing
some spend a lot of time and money to get the best out of their engine
and buy their oil accordingly
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 23, 2019, 04:10:42 PM
Lubricants are an individual thing
some spend a lot of time and money to get the best out of their engine
and buy their oil accordingly
You should be a salesman for the expensive oil brands...
Quote from: Dan89flstc on May 23, 2019, 04:27:39 PM
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 23, 2019, 04:10:42 PM
Lubricants are an individual thing
some spend a lot of time and money to get the best out of their engine
and buy their oil accordingly
You should be a salesman for the expensive oil brands...
So you run a stock bike with the HD oil ?
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 23, 2019, 05:32:49 PM
Quote from: Dan89flstc on May 23, 2019, 04:27:39 PM
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 23, 2019, 04:10:42 PM
Lubricants are an individual thing
some spend a lot of time and money to get the best out of their engine
and buy their oil accordingly
You should be a salesman for the expensive oil brands...
So you run a stock bike with the HD oil ?
What made you ask that??
Quote from: Dan89flstc on May 24, 2019, 11:10:08 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 23, 2019, 05:32:49 PM
Quote from: Dan89flstc on May 23, 2019, 04:27:39 PM
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 23, 2019, 04:10:42 PM
Lubricants are an individual thing
some spend a lot of time and money to get the best out of their engine
and buy their oil accordingly
You should be a salesman for the expensive oil brands...
So you run a stock bike with the HD oil ?
What made you ask that??
I always have..
Quote from: Dan89flstc on May 24, 2019, 11:10:08 AM
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 23, 2019, 05:32:49 PM
Quote from: Dan89flstc on May 23, 2019, 04:27:39 PM
Quote from: 98fxstc on May 23, 2019, 04:10:42 PM
Lubricants are an individual thing
some spend a lot of time and money to get the best out of their engine
and buy their oil accordingly
You should be a salesman for the expensive oil brands...
So you run a stock bike with the HD oil ?
What made you ask that??
Don't need to be a salesman for the expensive oil brands to know there are better oils about than those the MoCo uses.
The Moco uses the cheapest oil that meets their specs.
Most replace stock lifters and cam bearings because of poor quality.
Cams and air cleaners and pipes are often replaced for better performance.
Then there are better oil pumps, better brakes, better shock absorbers, .... etc, etc
And there are better oils
Some guys are big on performance and put a lot of time and effort and research and dollars into their builds
and that also applies to the lubricants
And then there are those riding a stock bike who are happy with the MoCo brand oil :nix:
I never put a lot of thought into oil quality until I got into the machinery side of mining, oils ain't oils Sol, granted most oil related failures in anything I've seen was usually attributed the quantity rather than the quality, ie no oil, lack of lubrication aside a good oil does a better job longer, I spend way more on beer than oil, happy to pay a little extra for peace of mind, not necessarily from HD though. Formula + is not a "Potty mouth" oil from what I've seen, I used it for years, now I just use a good substitute from where I can get decent oil for all three holes.
Several weeks ago, I drained my 80w 90 gear oil and replaced it with the new 80w 140 gear oil from HD. I found that this high-$$$ oil eliminates the gearbox "rattle" that I would experience with the bike in neutral.
Quote from: Norton Commando on May 25, 2019, 03:18:23 PM
Several weeks ago, I drained my 80w 90 gear oil and replaced it with the new 80w 140 gear oil from HD. I found that this high-$$$ oil eliminates the gearbox "rattle" that I would experience with the bike in neutral.
It could just be the viscosity change.... Did you ever run 80W140 gear oil before....?
Quote from: hattitude on May 26, 2019, 11:51:34 AM
Quote from: Norton Commando on May 25, 2019, 03:18:23 PM
Several weeks ago, I drained my 80w 90 gear oil and replaced it with the new 80w 140 gear oil from HD. I found that this high-$$$ oil eliminates the gearbox "rattle" that I would experience with the bike in neutralO.
It could just be the viscosity change.... Did you ever run 80W140 gear oil before....?
Yes, I agree, it's probably the higher viscosity. I used to run Belray in my 1990 EVO, but not in my Ultra Limited. This is the first time to run the heavy-weight oil in the FLHTK. And I suspect Belray 75W140 would silence the gearbox rattle in this bike, too.
I've been using case transaxle fluid 80w-140 in my softail transmission for a couple years and had no problems. I was thinking it would be ok in the primary because it is for wet brakes and it is gl-4 so it would be ok for the stator, but I'll just keep using formula + as long as I can get it, I know that works. :oil:
Well I just bought some of the new HD 80w 140 from my local dealer. Going to install it this week. I have been running formula+ I plan on draining as much of the formula+ as I can before installing the HD stuff. I hope that what little of the formula+ that is left behind mixes OK with the new stuff.
Mixing a little bit of the old with the new won't be a problem.
Well I changed the trans. oil from Formula+ to the new HD Heavy Duty Synthetic 80w 140 today and took a nice 70 mile ride and I can report I feel or hear no difference with the tranny between the two. But at least I now know I have a tranny specific gear lube now and maybe some better protection for the gears mostly in hotter weather.
Quote from: Slider1950 on May 29, 2019, 07:27:51 PM
Well I changed the trans. oil from Formula+ to the new HD Heavy Duty Synthetic 80w 140 today and took a nice 70 mile ride and I can report I feel or hear no difference with the tranny between the two. But at least I now know I have a tranny specific gear lube now and maybe some better protection for the gears mostly in hotter weather.
Formula+ is gear lube, just not syn.