March 28, 2024, 03:45:41 PM

News:

For advertising inquiries or help with registration or other issues, you may contact us by email at help@harleytechtalk.com


Help with Dyno tune and spark advance tables

Started by BadHabit, May 10, 2019, 09:18:36 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

BadHabit

May 10, 2019, 09:18:36 AM Last Edit: May 10, 2019, 01:22:19 PM by BadHabit
 Does optimal spark advance and timing vary from motor to motor?After l using winvp and looking at the spark advance tables in the map the dyno tuner provided I see that they made ZERO changes (front or rear) to the timing except for the area under 1500rpms and 80 and 90kpa... My understanding is that adjusting the timing during a dyno tune is very important. I was told that they tune ALL tables....confused...again :scratch:

jjdalynh

same experience here from a reputable tuner.  reducing the timing in the upper right corner for easier starting.  wanted AFR optimized, spark optimized, CDE and MLN optimized..... none of that happened, and my bike was gone for a week.   I've since bought my own dyno and am figuring out my process.

Mirrmu

Not a surprise to hear that.

I reckon that would happen 99% of the time.

Even the posting of charts here leaves a lot to be desired and should be backed up with tune file data.

Every bike is different.

BadHabit

I did ALLOT of research and the things I've read suggest it's all part of a complete tune. I was aware that some shops skip some tables in the tuning process. That's why in my written correspondence with the shop prior to the tune I verified they would tune all tables (which they didn't)...While I don't figure I'll gain any big numbers with the timing being tuned I figured it would make for a smoother, cooler, more efficient motor. A former well respected tuner for this shop has commented online that it is VITAL to a proper tune and that if it's not done the tune isn't right...guess that thought process must have left the shop with him. Emailed the shop early yesterday and am still waiting for a reply back... :pop:

jjdalynh

i street tunes the VEs (autotune pro) on mine first.  the next summer i wanted the rest done that i can't do on the street. 

when it went on it was 105/106 baseline.  when it came off it was 112/110, with *no* adjustments to AFR or timing for best torque.  that was the minimum i wanted.  when i started asking about all those things i think he was like "oh, someone knows what they want".  and the reply was "i can keep it for as long as you want and make it perfect, but we don't usually touch that stuff".  after a week.  after $500.   :emsad:

jjdalynh

after i got my dyno set up and had changed to smaller injectors and with a little help from steve at gmr on suggestions for the starting map, i had done some street tuning again but it's still a rough map, i got 109/109 on my dyno with no dyno tuning at all and a flat 13.0 AFR table.   

Don D

In order to optimize timing you need to be able to measure the results of the changes. There are riding situations (parts of the curve) where they will run fine but much better economy is possible with optimized timing. No way to feasibly measure that with the instruments most motorcycle tuner use. Ion sensing is used for ping threshold and there is a new system on the M8s. But Ion sensing has been proven to be not accurate after mods are done to the engine and this has not been opened up to tweaking by the flash tuners. There is a Dynojet real time torque module which is useful but very rare in the field.

Bottom line, no recipe will work. These motors have different timing requirements so some sort of canned table is just a starting point.
Am I missing something? How do the best tuners get timing optimized and verifiable?

BadHabit

So the canned timing map is the starting point and the timing that each specific motor needs is found out thru dyno tune correct?

Don D

IMHO Yes and no. They will run with a timing map very far off from what the engine wants and needs. For all practical purposes our EFI does not do a very good job of self correcting, adaptive. Therefore the tuner must be able to determine the problems, optimize and adjust the curve. This is a guessing game in many cases with the crude tools they have. Despite that some of the very best tuners muscle through it and get them close. Experience and an advanced understanding of how a performance IC engine works plays a big role. OEMs have much more tools to get these right however their focus is a broad spectrum including and especially including EPA emissions compliance. When and if Dynojet integrates their torque module into the software with automated tuning routines we will make a big leap forward.

BadHabit

Thanks for the detailed explanation Don. Helps explain allot. I'm frustrated that they didn't even attempt any timing adjustments after saying they would. Will be interested to see what they say when/if they reply.

Ohio HD

I don't know why they wouldn't have made timing changes. Here's the rear and front timing table delta values from the starter MAP and the completed tune. There was definitely changes made by Roeder. Easily seen here and by the before and after dyno sheet.


[attach=0]


[attach=1]

Gordon61

Those look more like cut n paste tables from a n other config file.  A bit like comparing some of the pre 2015 TC softail timing maps to the post 15 maps.

Ohio HD

Those are timing tables from pre-tune and post-tune of a bike I had Roeder Racing tune. What you see is the comparison delta inside of PV. There are not always bug changes in timing.

98fxstc

Quote from: Ohio HD on May 11, 2019, 09:49:22 PM
Those are timing tables from pre-tune and post-tune of a bike I had Roeder Racing tune. What you see is the comparison delta inside of PV. There are not always bug changes in timing.

very enlightening Brian  :up:

I thought you had TTS ?

How are the Andres cams ?   :teeth:

Ohio HD

I have TTS on one bike, the other bike that has ABS I decided to use PV. Just to keep things simple with the ABS.

The cams are decent, wakes up a sluggy motor, makes it only half sluggy.   :teeth:

BadHabit

Here is what I received from the tuning ALL tables...

Ohio HD

Was the MAP that they used one you supplied? Or did they have one to use? That does certainly raise some question.

BadHabit

May 12, 2019, 06:52:40 AM #17 Last Edit: May 12, 2019, 07:15:23 AM by BadHabit
Roeders has a great reputation. From my research one of the best tuners they had used for many years was outstanding. This tuner left the area to open his own shop out of state a couple of years ago I believe. He posts somewhat frequently online. In my research I found these comments from him about the need to tune timing.

BadHabit

May 12, 2019, 06:54:52 AM #18 Last Edit: May 12, 2019, 07:00:43 AM by BadHabit
Quote from: Ohio HD on May 12, 2019, 06:48:20 AM
Was the MAP that they used one you supplied? Or did they have one to use? That does certainly raise some question.
The map they started with was a basic fuel moto canned map.
The delta is between my timing maps as they received the bike and as I received it with its final tune.

Ohio HD

If it were me, I'd ask to speak to George Roeder. Just present to him what you know, and why you are having the discussion. I know he's a reasonable man.

The two items on timing you posted, I guess that is from Chad Groves. He also has now shut his shop down in Virginia to move onto some new endeavors.

BadHabit

I was told Friday morning they would talk with the tuner and get back with me soon. That was 1 and 1/2 work days ago. As far as speaking to George when I dropped the bike off and the service mgr told me that tuning the exhaust wasn't needed and a waste of time because they ALL run better with ALL the discs possible it was George who stepped over and reinforced that thought as well. Not to mention he came across like he could have cared less about my business to put it mildly. But like I've said before if the product I receive is as advertised then I can live with the lack of customer service skills. Before I question the job his employees provided I want to give them a chance to explain why they did what they did as well try to  understand about the process they follow to provide the service they provide.

Ohio HD

I think your taking a wise approach, and you certainly have the right to inquire. My experience with George has not been that way. When I was picking my bike up, they wanted me to take it for a ride before loading up the trailer. When I came back George wanted to make sure I was happy with the way it ran. He didn't know me from Adam at that point.

I hope you get a solution, or explanation that you're looking for.

kd

I am interested in what you find out about the discs.  I am sure they have more effect on tune than just as a sound control device.
KD

BadHabit

May 12, 2019, 10:01:45 AM #23 Last Edit: May 12, 2019, 10:14:31 AM by BadHabit
Quote from: kd on May 12, 2019, 08:05:53 AM
I am interested in what you find out about the discs.  I am sure they have more effect on tune than just as a sound control device.
He was wrong. I was charged for two additional hours of tuning for them to work with the discs. They started at 12 then 14 and finally 16. They settled on 14 (according to the dyno tune map) Funny thing is though when I picked it up the service mgr (who at first said he would be tuning the bike but upon a later conversation said he was not the tuner just the assistant) said they ended up with all the discs I provided minis one (which would have made it 17)...i pointed out the paperwork said 14 and then me said "oh your right". I get home and the bike actually has 15 on it...But that is another story for another day....

kd

Seeing a record of the runs with each change would be good information for comparison.
KD

harleytuner

Quote from: BadHabit on May 12, 2019, 06:52:40 AM
Roeders has a great reputation. From my research one of the best tuners they had used for many years was outstanding. This tuner left the area to open his own shop out of state a couple of years ago I believe. He posts somewhat frequently online. In my research I found these comments from him about the need to tune timing.

Those quotes are from me.  The fuel quality available to us doesn't allow a tuner to get nearly aggressive with the ignition tables as we used to.  You said they started with a starter MAP from FM, I'd venture to say that that MAP had the ignition tables pretty close so Jake either didn't feel they needed changed or changed them and ended up right where they were.  With the fuel quality and the cooler than normal weather you've been having he couldn't optimize the ignition tables without the risk of having spark knock when the weather gets hot.  How does the bike run? 

I can guarantee that George Cares,  if he gave you the impression he could "care less" he really must have had something on his mind.   I've never seen him be anything but completely professional with his customers.  Even though I don't work there anymore, that shop and everybody there mean the world to me.  I'll reach out to Jake and ask him about the tune.

BadHabit

May 12, 2019, 03:20:09 PM #26 Last Edit: May 12, 2019, 03:33:46 PM by BadHabit
For me it's hard to After seeing several before and after successful dyno tunes (that show the delta in the spark advance tables)in the last few it's hard to believe they actually WORKED all the areas of the spark table and only changed those few areas dealing with starting. Fuel Moto themselves said those numbers are just in the ballpark and the only way to set them properly for each individual motor is to dyno tune. What are the chances the "ballpark" numbers are spot on? As far as how it rides because of the weather I've only gotten approx 100mi to and from work. It seems noticeably better in most areas except a rough idle over the canned map along with a very annoying slight miss when under very light load/throttle..thing is I paid for the afr, exhaust AND timing to be tuned on a dyno for the bike to run its BEST not just better... With all of that being said Your input/help is VERY much appreciated. As a final note it seems they only want the customer to deal with the service mgr instead of the tuner which makes communicating issues and concerns with the tune a little difficult.

harleytuner

Quote from: BadHabit on May 12, 2019, 03:20:09 PM
For me it's hard to After seeing several before and after successful dyno tunes (that show the delta in the spark advance tables)in the last few it's hard to believe they actually WORKED all the areas of the spark table and only changed those few areas dealing with starting. Fuel Moto themselves said those numbers are just in the ballpark and the only way to set them properly for each individual motor is to dyno tune. What are the chances the "ballpark" numbers are spot on? As far as how it rides because of the weather I've only gotten approx 100mi to and from work. It seems noticeably better in most areas except a rough idle over the canned map along with a very annoying slight miss when under very light load/throttle..thing is I paid for the afr, exhaust AND timing to be tuned on a dyno for the engines needs and wants not just an getting the afr close. Would run files show the tuning they did? With all of that being said Your input/help is VERY much appreciated. As a final note it seems they only want the customer to deal with the service mgr instead of the tuner which makes communicating issues and concerns with the tune a little difficult.

I hear what your saying,  I'll see if i can get ahold of Jake, I'm not going to bug him on his day off but I'll talk with him Tues.  Like i was saying before,  a few years back we were able to get pretty aggressive with the ignition tables and not have to worry about it. With fuel quality like it is changed things up quit a bit.  Now we have to tune more in a "safe" area to allow for different fuel and climate.   Gas just isn't what it used to be. If I tune a bike in the Spring when it's cooler out and dial in the timing for max power there's a really good chance it'll have spark knock on a hot day.  A good tune doesn't necessarily have you leaving the shop with every 10th of a HP the tuner can squeeze out of it, it's having you leave the shop with a bike that will run good in all conditions.  Fuel changes from region to region as well, I've had bikes ride in for a tune from another state just to top off before they drop it off, problem is now it's being tuned on the fuel that is in my area not where they will be doing the majority of their riding.  We also get into winter and summer blends, etc. Tuning bikes for street applications versus race applications is to different things anymore.  Having the best of both worlds just isn't viable.  Best way to optimize timing tables is on a hot miserable day, time of year in Ohio can be real difficult.   It's really a no win for the shop, either you're leaving upset because you don't think you got what you paid for or your upset in August when your getting spark knock.  I'll talk with Jake, he hasn't been tuning for a real long time but he's very sharp and from what I saw when I was still there,  he had a lot of potential.  I haven't been on this forum in over a year but this post was brought to my attention and I felt compelled to come back.  Once this thread runs its course, whatever the outcome, I'll leave it again.  But until then I'll see what I can find out.  I know Roeders doesn't do anything on the forums so they won't see this.   

Herko

IME, the ideal timing map is not derived via pushing the timing up to the point of uncle (spark knock, reported or actual) at a given operational parameter and then backing off a few degrees. Yes, these types of tools are available in some of the popular tuning software suites and can be a step in the right direction.
But, other testing and development that I've done individually or jointly showed optimal spark advance timing maps come from different strategies and thought processes. The thought processes include understanding the characteristics of these particular IC power plants, their application, environment, and load flow based on how they are typically operated.

Also worth noting IMO, the average tuner can make a pretty WOT graph for posting, impressing, bragging rights or whatever.
However, the real work, applied knowledge and expertise goes in to the abundance of operational parameters that precede WOT...where we spend 95+ percent of the time operating. Many tuners might say they tune all of the needed parameters. But, when it comes to having a full working knowledge of the main tuning tables from a dynamic perspective and how the ancillary tables correspond...this can be a different story.

Cheers
Considering a power upgrade?
First and foremost, focus on your tuning plan.

Don D


BadHabit

May 13, 2019, 07:44:26 AM #30 Last Edit: May 13, 2019, 08:05:52 AM by BadHabit
Well the more I read the more it seems that the tuners knowledge, tools available as well as fuel quality available make a big difference in how much the timing can adjusted. Thing is I also believe most times you can adjust the timing in small increments and achieve small improvements. The only way to know this is to tune the timing tables. The bottom line is they said in writing they would tune the tables. So did they or not. Hopefully this is just a misunderstanding and they will alleviate my concerns and help fix the issues I might have.

lonewolf

Quote from: BadHabit on May 13, 2019, 07:44:26 AM
Thing is I also believe most times you can adjust the timing in small increments and achieve small improvements.
How do you measure those?


Mirrmu

Think you have your answer from Roeder in this.

What i am getting from this is that Fuelmoto make very good tunes. Give the dyno the flick and stick with a great company.

Quote from: harleytuner on May 12, 2019, 02:08:05 PM
Quote from: BadHabit on May 12, 2019, 06:52:40 AM

Those quotes are from me.  The fuel quality available to us doesn't allow a tuner to get nearly aggressive with the ignition tables as we used to.  You said they started with a starter MAP from FM, I'd venture to say that that MAP had the ignition tables pretty close so Jake either didn't feel they needed changed or changed them and ended up right where they were.  With the fuel quality and the cooler than normal weather you've been having he couldn't optimize the ignition tables without the risk of having spark knock when the weather gets hot.  How does the bike run? 

I can guarantee that George Cares,  if he gave you the impression he could "care less" he really must have had something on his mind.   I've never seen him be anything but completely professional with his customers.  Even though I don't work there anymore, that shop and everybody there mean the world to me.  I'll reach out to Jake and ask him about the tune.

BadHabit

May 16, 2019, 04:51:41 PM #34 Last Edit: May 16, 2019, 05:13:25 PM by BadHabit
Still looking at the tune I got from roeders  Been confused on how many discs they actually ended up using and have been talking to the tuner. He said the bike made its most power with 14 discs but at 2450 rpms 15 discs made 10 more hp and 5 more tq...So they ended up tuning the final tune with 15...I thought less discs= more tq and less top end yet on my build it was backwards...Can someone help explain why?

Don D

Consider this. You have a functioning exhaust port now. It has much increased low lift flow. The cam has an additional 15 degrees duration over the intake and it does not need that and it is not liking it at low speed. Generic rules of added discs and subtracting go out the door. We still have a relatively low compression motor that would love to have a 240deg exhaust lobe on 110CL. The disc and cap exhaust compounds the issue and the added overlap becomes a source of low speed reversion.

Hossamania

t this point you have a couple options. Run it, or take it to another tuner.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

BadHabit

Quote from: HD Street Performance on May 17, 2019, 07:55:01 AM
Consider this. You have a functioning exhaust port now. It has much increased low lift flow. The cam has an additional 15 degrees duration over the intake and it does not need that and it is not liking it at low speed. Generic rules of added discs and subtracting go out the door. We still have a relatively low compression motor that would love to have a 240deg exhaust lobe on 110CL. The disc and cap exhaust compounds the issue and the added overlap becomes a source of low speed reversion.

Don you should have been a science or math teacher...you are really able to explain things.. Thanks

stogieluvr60

Quote from: BadHabit on May 12, 2019, 06:52:40 AM
Roeders has a great reputation. From my research one of the best tuners they had used for many years was outstanding. This tuner left the area to open his own shop out of state a couple of years ago I believe. He posts somewhat frequently online. In my research I found these comments from him about the need to tune timing.
That is true...but for health reasons he has since left the business to pursue other avenues...our loss for sure but his gain.

jjdalynh

Quote from: stogieluvr60 on June 10, 2019, 11:32:23 AM
Quote from: BadHabit on May 12, 2019, 06:52:40 AM
Roeders has a great reputation. From my research one of the best tuners they had used for many years was outstanding. This tuner left the area to open his own shop out of state a couple of years ago I believe. He posts somewhat frequently online. In my research I found these comments from him about the need to tune timing.
That is true...but for health reasons he has since left the business to pursue other avenues...our loss for sure but his gain.

yep, I got Chad's dyno and it's been moved up to New England.  Great guy.  I'm sure he'll be missed in our community.

98fxstc

Been around a bit that dyno
I think Chad bought it from WurkTruk

Hilly13

Quote from: 98fxstc on June 13, 2019, 10:48:19 PM
Been around a bit that dyno
I think Chad bought it from WurkTruk
I miss John, he always tried to help people, a good man.
Just because its said don't make it so

jjdalynh