I have a 1999 FLHT standard. The frame has 109,000 miles and the motor & transmission about 40,000 miles. At some point the previous owner upgraded to a 103 CI screaming eagle motor, a six speed transmission and an oil cooler. I have had this bike for several years and have put over 15,000 miles on it. About 2500 miles ago I changed the oil and filter. Standard HD filter and 20W-50 oil. I commute year around hot or cold, usually less than 10 miles each way. The bike has been sitting in my garage for the last 3 weeks due to heavy (for Seattle) snow. Snow is now gone so intending to ride to work tomorrow morning.
And now, finally, my question. Checking tires and fluids and discovered a tan material at the top of the dip stick and in the dipstick "throat". See pictures. WTF? Any comments would be much appreciated!
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Your short trips are contaminating your oil with moisture. It takes an extended ride up to temp to vaporize and expel condensation that builds up in a cold engine. Especially when riding in cold weather, you have to extend your run time for that to not happen. Condensation in your oil like you are showing makes acid which in turn etches your cylinders, rings and bearings etc. Not good.
As I see it you have 2 choices. Take it out and put 50 or so miles on it and recheck it or preferably warm it up, drain and change the oil. From that point on no more short trips unless you feel flu$h.
I think i would change that oil and filter before riding it again. And take it for an extended ride and change the oil and filter again. But that's just what i would do.
Cover your oil cooler, If it has a thermostat it might be stuck open. I agree with the others, short trips, cold temps, the engine never gets up to temp. In cold weather I wonder if 50 miles will do it. Sad part is just changing the oil will not get all the moisture out, you need to get it hot. I would plan on a good ride one weekend, a couple hundred miles. You need to run it long enough to get it hot, and long enough to bake out the moisture.
Yours is the extreme case why not to run an engine unless you can get it up to temp.
Quote from: PoorUB on January 19, 2020, 06:42:45 PM
Cover your oil cooler, If it has a thermostat it might be stuck open. I agree with the others, short trips, cold temps, the engine never gets up to temp. In cold weather I wonder if 50 miles will do it. Sad part is just changing the oil will not get all the moisture out, you need to get it hot. I would plan on a good ride one weekend, a couple hundred miles. You need to run it long enough to get it hot, and long enough to bake out the moisture.
Yours is the extreme case why not to run an engine unless you can get it up to temp.
Quote from: hardheaded on January 19, 2020, 06:37:19 PM
I think i would change that oil and filter before riding it again. And take it for an extended ride and change the oil and filter again. But that's just what i would do.
I probably would too but it's his decision. Condensation is fairly common with people that take short trips and don't check their oil to notice it. It definitely is not good but isn't sudden death either. When it sits the acid gremlins go to work. It'll have to be brought up to hot operation to get a good oil draining job. At least 1/2 qt will not come out unless you do a full flush with the engine running. A search on this site may find the instructions for doing that. Otherwise a double oil change will clear it.
PoorUB. :up:
I have seen this on weekend bar bikes. You need to pull the rocker box covers. the muck will be thick . I clean them in hot solvent parts cleaner.
You need to ride it long enough and hot enough to get the oil temperature to burn off the water.
Interesting. Thanks all for your very helpful responses! My first thought was water contamination but could not figure out the source. Condensation makes sense and see how this is caused by not warming up enough, cold ambient temperatures (mid to low 30s) and my short commute. Sounds like this "froth" will accumulate at motor high points? Will do a oil/filter change, take a good run to warm things up then another hot oil/filter change and check under the rocker covers. Thanks again for the help!
Psycho
QuoteCover your oil cooler, If it has a thermostat it might be stuck open.
:agree:
running in cool weather I'd cover it regardless
short trips kill, oil moisture pudding!
Any time it's cool enough outside for you to need a jacket to ride, you should put one on your oil cooler as well.
I also have a 99 and used to commute to work daily in North Carolina before I retired. The commute was 21 or so miles one way, sometimes in winter the morning commute was below 20°. I always got this every winter, not quite as bad as your pic shows but definitely there. One day I rode 130 miles when it was 37° and still had it when I got home. I do not have an oil cooler and still have the same bike today. Don't worry too much about it. I never saw any actual evidence of the foam in the oil when I did an oil change and believe me I did many of them when I still had foam on the dip stick and it was very cold outside. Remember, condensation is caused when you have a big difference in temperature (take a cold beer out of the refrigerator on a hot day and see it sweat). Same thing here. Your oil pan is sitting remotely behind the engine and the throat of the dipstick is above the oil level so the hot oil does not even contact it there. If you ride in really cold weather it will probably never get hot enough at that point to completely eliminate this. If you are really concerned about it go ahead and change your oil, but if you do and don't see the effect in the actual oil that came out, just ride on and stop worrying. Do cover that oil cooler though.
Anyone that rides year-round has this issue to some extent, but your situation is aggravated by your location. The rain and high humidity of Seattle puts an incredible amount of moisture in the air which winds up in your oil. I would check your breather as this is where the water is expelled, preferably not back into the intake. Soft lowers can help maintain motor temps; it won't eliminate problem but it might reduce it.
I use to do the same dumb ass thing in late fall /early spring .Ride the bike to work 2 nd shift. Same white sludge in the oil. Pull your clutch cover off and i'd bet a beer the inside of your pri-cover is coated also. Cold damp weather and short runs under 50 mi's is a eng .killer.
Quote from: 92flhtcu on January 20, 2020, 03:15:20 AM
short trips kill, oil moisture pudding!
Good idea and thanks to both of you.
Quote from: smoserx1 on January 20, 2020, 04:28:06 AM
I also have a 99 and used to commute to work daily in North Carolina before I retired. The commute was 21 or so miles one way, sometimes in winter the morning commute was below 20°. I always got this every winter, not quite as bad as your pic shows but definitely there. One day I rode 130 miles when it was 37° and still had it when I got home. I do not have an oil cooler and still have the same bike today. Don't worry too much about it. I never saw any actual evidence of the foam in the oil when I did an oil change and believe me I did many of them when I still had foam on the dip stick and it was very cold outside. Remember, condensation is caused when you have a big difference in temperature (take a cold beer out of the refrigerator on a hot day and see it sweat). Same thing here. Your oil pan is sitting remotely behind the engine and the throat of the dipstick is above the oil level so the hot oil does not even contact it there. If you ride in really cold weather it will probably never get hot enough at that point to completely eliminate this. If you are really concerned about it go ahead and change your oil, but if you do and don't see the effect in the actual oil that came out, just ride on and stop worrying. Do cover that oil cooler though.
I'm thinking I need to put a little heat in my garage! Back when I lived in a much colder place people would use engine block heaters and plug in their cars every night in the winter. Some used a dipstick heater. Anyone heard of an after market electric dipstick oil heater?
Quote from: hogpipes1 on January 20, 2020, 10:04:00 AM
I use to do the same dumb ass thing in late fall /early spring .Ride the bike to work 2 nd shift. Same white sludge in the oil. Pull your clutch cover off and i'd bet a beer the inside of your pri-cover is coated also. Cold damp weather and short runs under 50 mi's is a eng .killer.
I'll check and let you know about the beer.
Primary ok but I'll still buy you that beer next time you are near Seattle.
QuoteI'm thinking I need to put a little heat in my garage! Back when I lived in a much colder place people would use engine block heaters and plug in their cars every night in the winter. Some used a dipstick heater. Anyone heard of an after market electric dipstick oil heater?
I really don't think it will do much good. Yes you live in an area that has lots of rain and humidity but most of the moisture you are dealing with here is from combustion. Combustion of a hydrocarbon fuel like gasoline results in carbon dioxide and water vapor and this gets into your crankcase from blowby past the piston rings. The crankcase is vented to the oil tank via a hose and since the dip stick and filler neck reside at a place on the oil pan somewhat remote from the engine and exposed to cold air this moisture from the combustion is very prone to condense exactly where you have shown it in your pictures. Chances are most of this condensed moisture will simply stay put and will eventually evaporate as the weather warms, but when I commuted it was there constantly during the winter months and finally gradually disappeared when spring arrived. Now if you come home and heat your garage or put a heated dipstick in what I think will happen is this foam will liquefy and run down and actually contaminate the oil where is would likely have stayed put if you just left it alone. And even in warm weather you are still getting moisture from combustion. It contaminates the oil...you just don't see it since the moisture is in a vapor form. you also get fuel contamination as well as a host of chemicals and this is why engine oil needs to be changed. Your primary is less likely to get moisture contamination since it does not receive combustion products. Quit worrying so much, you are not killing your engine by riding it in the winter.
Quote from: Psychro on January 20, 2020, 12:34:07 PM
Quote from: smoserx1 on January 20, 2020, 04:28:06 AM
I also have a 99 and used to commute to work daily in North Carolina before I retired. The commute was 21 or so miles one way, sometimes in winter the morning commute was below 20°. I always got this every winter, not quite as bad as your pic shows but definitely there. One day I rode 130 miles when it was 37° and still had it when I got home. I do not have an oil cooler and still have the same bike today. Don't worry too much about it. I never saw any actual evidence of the foam in the oil when I did an oil change and believe me I did many of them when I still had foam on the dip stick and it was very cold outside. Remember, condensation is caused when you have a big difference in temperature (take a cold beer out of the refrigerator on a hot day and see it sweat). Same thing here. Your oil pan is sitting remotely behind the engine and the throat of the dipstick is above the oil level so the hot oil does not even contact it there. If you ride in really cold weather it will probably never get hot enough at that point to completely eliminate this. If you are really concerned about it go ahead and change your oil, but if you do and don't see the effect in the actual oil that came out, just ride on and stop worrying. Do cover that oil cooler though.
I'm thinking I need to put a little heat in my garage! Back when I lived in a much colder place people would use engine block heaters and plug in their cars every night in the winter. Some used a dipstick heater. Anyone heard of an after market electric dipstick oil heater?
I don't think a dip stick heater will do a bit of good. Your problem is the engine isn't reaching operating temp and run long enough at it. I had your issue with my 73 shovel and it was kept in a heated garage. Short runs are more of the culprit than where you keep the bike stored, I like you was riding a very short distance to work while living in MI. If there wasn't snow on the ground I rode. had a nasty condensation issue in the oil tank around the old drop in oil filter and the primary case as well..
Quote from: motorhogman on January 20, 2020, 03:09:39 PM
Quote from: Psychro on January 20, 2020, 12:34:07 PM
Quote from: smoserx1 on January 20, 2020, 04:28:06 AM
I also have a 99 and used to commute to work daily in North Carolina before I retired. The commute was 21 or so miles one way, sometimes in winter the morning commute was below 20°. I always got this every winter, not quite as bad as your pic shows but definitely there. One day I rode 130 miles when it was 37° and still had it when I got home. I do not have an oil cooler and still have the same bike today. Don't worry too much about it. I never saw any actual evidence of the foam in the oil when I did an oil change and believe me I did many of them when I still had foam on the dip stick and it was very cold outside. Remember, condensation is caused when you have a big difference in temperature (take a cold beer out of the refrigerator on a hot day and see it sweat). Same thing here. Your oil pan is sitting remotely behind the engine and the throat of the dipstick is above the oil level so the hot oil does not even contact it there. If you ride in really cold weather it will probably never get hot enough at that point to completely eliminate this. If you are really concerned about it go ahead and change your oil, but if you do and don't see the effect in the actual oil that came out, just ride on and stop worrying. Do cover that oil cooler though.
I'm thinking I need to put a little heat in my garage! Back when I lived in a much colder place people would use engine block heaters and plug in their cars every night in the winter. Some used a dipstick heater. Anyone heard of an after market electric dipstick oil heater?
I don't think a dip stick heater will do a bit of good. Your problem is the engine isn't reaching operating temp and run long enough at it. I had your issue with my 73 shovel and it was kept in a heated garage. Short runs are more of the culprit than where you keep the bike stored, I like you was riding a very short distance to work while living in MI. If there wasn't snow on the ground I rode. had a nasty condensation issue in the oil tank around the old drop in oil filter and the primary case as well..
Yep for sure, MI winter rinding will do it , same as for cars but few people even look up the under the hood much anymore.
I'm waiting for fleetmechanic to chime in. I'll bet he has some good observations and remedies.
On all of our rigs that run sidecars on the snow days in the winter the oil coolers had to be removed to allow sidecar brackets to be installed. We also have soft lowers on all of them and lap robes on a few of them. The funeral escort runs we do are definitely long enough to fully heat the oil and I haven't seen this type of coagulation in any of our bikes. The garage stays about 50 degrees even when it's below zero outside. Too much colder would make them slow to start in the mornings
Perhaps, once a week ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLP0y-X4uYs
Stay out of 6th also. keep those Rs up in the high 2k range.
What oil are you using :potstir:
Just curious; why isn't this a problem with cars?
It is.
It can happen in cars, but liquid cooling gets the engine at operating temp sooner and keeps it there. Air cooling engine temps vary greatly with ambient temp and load.
Pull a rocker cover off a short trip vehicle and see. Up here in the northern winters, I have seen rockers almost invisible due to build-up in extreme cases like seniors taking daily short trips only.
Quote from: kd on January 21, 2020, 09:57:37 AM
Pull a rocker cover off a short trip vehicle and see. Up here in the northern winters, I have seen rockers almost invisible due to build-up in extreme cases like seniors taking daily short trips only.
:agree: I make it a point of running the car for a hour min in the coldest times, I also run a winter front to keep the cold air out of the radiator and engine area. Also keep the tank on the top half as opposed to the bottom. That moisture will build up inside a gas tank as well. Colder it gets the more the moisture migrates to any warmth. Bob
.... and ethanol sucks up that moisture big time. :up:
Different types of oil can affect this. Years back I ran Penzoil and the valve covers were full of white scum. I switched to Havoline and it wet away.
But short trips with a car and it can happen.
Quote from: smoserx1 on January 20, 2020, 03:06:38 PM
Quit worrying so much, you are not killing your engine by riding it in the winter.
:agree:
This is the reason they put acid neutralizers in oil. Clean out the white crap you see, change your oil maybe a little more often than usual, and you have no worries. And yes, a weekly 50 mile ride won't hurt either.
-JW
Acid neutralizes? Never heard of such a thing. To neutralize acid you'd have to use something with a high pH, which would also be bad for an engine.
I learned from the lubrication engineers in the refinery I worked in that oil must reach a minimum of 160 degrees F for the water to just start being evaporated out of the oil. Getting your oil that hot in cold weather is going to require a LONG ride at high enough speed to produce the horsepower necessary to get your oil temp to 160. We're talking several hundred miles in the winter. Just because your engine feels hot to your hand doesn't mean your oil temp is high enough. This is one of the few times a temp ga. Is handy.
PC
It seemed a pretty simple question. Learning from all the great and interesting responses!
Either do a web search for "engine oil additives", or simply go to wikipedia and search for "oil additives". Then we can talk about additives that neutralize acids.
-JW
Trying to stay in the same ballpark as the subject at hand. Warning :oil: ; Straight weight(Dyno), multi(Dyno), and multi (full Syn) have to react to this winter moisture very differently. Perhaps the HD 20-50(SEMI-Syn) is not the best type of earl.
I would say the difference in reaction to water and cold weather, whether mineral, synth, or brand, is based on the additive package.
-JW
I would think that while there may be additives that help prevent acids forming, how much water gets emulsified with the oil under the same conditions might have more to do with the kind of base stock.
It's January :cry:
Next time you have a day off and the roads are dry,ish burn a full tank of gas and check again
Quote from: Ratfade on January 21, 2020, 09:01:47 AM
Just curious; why isn't this a problem with cars?
Yeah, I had a '70 Volvo that did this a lot in winter. The greasy foam would build up in the oil cap. I'd just shake it out of the cap and onto the ground and move on.
I haven't seen this in any of the late model cars I've had.
The late model cars have this issue big time on short trippers. Ask any BMW owner or Chev 2.4 Equinox owners, they usually gunk up the CCVS(Crank Case Vent System) todays name for PCV
I have had it happen on a couple of cars too. A 55 Chevy with a straight 6 and a 66 ford with a 352 V8. Both times on the dip stick and under the oil filler caps. I have been changing my own oil since I was a teenager and I have never once seen this residue actually come out with the oil that was changed. Like I said earlier it seems to manifest itself in regions of the engines (and the oil pans of Harley bikes) that are cooler than the rest of the engine and to me that makes perfect sense. If I actually saw it in the oil I would worry, otherwise I don't consider it a problem.
Back in the 70's I worked at a Standard Oil station. At the time there was a Purolator Courier Co, similar to FedEx or UPS. I believe they are still running in Canada. They would come on for gas everyday. Even in the summer time their engines had that pastey crap in the valve covers. I remember they ran Penzoil. None of us that worked there would run Penzoil because of it.
Arnold Palmer told all our parents to use Pennzoil. When I saw what it had done to valve train and valve cover on the car I got from my mom, it was Valvoline from then on. It looked like someone had poured wax all over the top end. Just like the op's picture.
Nothing to get worked up about, the goop in the top of the dipstick opening is formed by moisture condensing, it is (to this extent) in the oil in the engine, it is just occurring right in the area you can see in the opening.
Wipe that crap out, and run the bike on the road long enough to get the oil up to normal temp.
The length of time an engine is run is only half the equation. It must be run hard enough to generate a lot of horsepower as horsepower equals heat. Just running around at 40-50 MPH isn't going to get the oil HOT. According to the lubrication engineers I worked with, moisture won't even START to boil off until the oil temp gets to at least 160 degrees F. on an engine with good enough rings to produce vacuum in the crankcase.
PC
Quote from: Phu Cat on February 11, 2020, 09:16:11 AM
The length of time an engine is run is only half the equation. It must be run hard enough to generate a lot of horsepower as horsepower equals heat. Just running around at 40-50 MPH isn't going to get the oil HOT. According to the lubrication engineers I worked with, moisture won't even START to boil off until the oil temp gets to at least 160 degrees F. on an engine with good enough rings to produce vacuum in the crankcase.
PC
This comes from the FWIW dept. I hate idiot lights so I installed oil pressure and temp gauges and an oil cooler on my 17 softail. I actually have 2 temp gauges. One that measures the temp after passing through the oil cooler and one in the tank. When running down the superslab at 75 the cooler gauge will read 180. The tank gauge will read 205. The cooler has a 170 thermostat. There are sections of the local superslab where the speed limit drops to 55 for about 10 miles. When I run 55 the cooler gauge will go up to 185. The tank gauge goes up very little if at all. When I go back to 75 the cooler gauge will drop back to 180. Of course these numbers don't mean much on a bike without the cooler but in my case the oil temp coming from the cooler is definitely related to the airflow going through it. I've been caught in stop and go traffic where the oil temps got up to 220 on both gauges so it would seem they do measure accurately. I also had a temp gauge on my 04 ultra without a cooler. At superslab speeds it would be up to 240 on hot summer days.
At superslab speeds it would be up to 240 on hot summer days.
You're on the right track IronButt. Oil additive packages have a lot to do with when oil gets so hot it starts to break down, but it's hotter than most of us will ever see driving normally in moving traffic. If you're stuck in traffic, that's a whole nother issue. I suspect after spend a big wad on a new bike, most of us don't want our oil getting too hot. So, how do you tell what's too hot? A) have your oil test by a lab, $35 the last time I did mine, or B) check your dipstick when riding in cool weather as mentioned above. Hot oil is better than cool oil IMO.
PC
Quote from: Phu Cat on February 13, 2020, 01:33:30 PM
At superslab speeds it would be up to 240 on hot summer days.
You're on the right track IronButt. Oil additive packages have a lot to do with when oil gets so hot it starts to break down, but it's hotter than most of us will ever see driving normally in moving traffic. If you're stuck in traffic, that's a whole nother issue. I suspect after spend a big wad on a new bike, most of us don't want our oil getting too hot. So, how do you tell what's too hot? A) have your oil test by a lab, $35 the last time I did mine, or B) check your dipstick when riding in cool weather as mentioned above. Hot oil is better than cool oil IMO.
PC
When the oil tank burns my fingers in 2 seconds I'm guessing the oil is hot enough. :smiled: That was the temp test before the dipstick gauge. Only time I see any white oily stuff is when I drain the catch can.
Are you running a full synthetic oil? That will help. Did several oil changes on my old KLR in similar conditions and the full synthetic was less prone to "foaming"