TTS, changing AFR table and elevation

[N-gin]

Hi guys. I have 2 questions and they are related to the same bike.
The first is, if I were to change the AFR table in the tune will the bike respond to it or will it need to be retunned for the AFR changes.
Second, if I move to different part of country and there is a change in elevation around 1100 will the tune suffer, Or will it automatically make the necessary corrections?

Thanks
D.

[rigidthumper]

1) If the VE tables were accurately calibrated, then it should follow AFR requests, within a range ( allowable tolerances) ; feedback systems (if used) should trim those to a smaller range within it's limits (closed loop area if using narrowband O2s).
2) The ECM polls the MAP sensor to determine load, and the pressure felt will reduce with altitude, so you may be able to hit 100KPA at 1000' ASL @ WOT, but only able to hit 85 KPA at 5000' ASL @ WOT. This is why calibration of the entire table ( not just idle/cruise & 100%) is so important.

[N-gin]

1) If the VE tables were accurately calibrated, then it should follow AFR requests, within a range ( allowable tolerances) ; feedback systems (if used) should trim those to a smaller range within it's limits (closed loop area if using narrowband O2s).
2) The ECM polls the MAP sensor to determine load, and the pressure felt will reduce with altitude, so you may be able to hit 100KPA at 1000' ASL @ WOT, but only able to hit 85 KPA at 5000' ASL @ WOT. This is why calibration of the entire table ( not just idle/cruise & 100%) is so important.

Great explanation thank you.

[Rusticwater]

FWIW back when I was in Denver and did the TTS tuning on my 2010 Dyna, all the tuning runs involved a route that started at a high altitude and as the route progressed would vary by thousands of feet altitude. I do know the final tuning runs involved going on I70 right up the front range of the Rocky Mountains that varied in altitude by about 2,500 feet or so. So I would enter onto I70 at about 1 mile altitude (think mile high Denver), scream up the front range for about 5 miles and get off I70 at about 7600 feet or so, then take US40 at normal speed back down to the bottom, pull over and stop the recording.

Now that I'm back at sea level in Maine I'm still using the same tune all these years later. Haven't checked in a long time but used to get about 48-50 highway mpg too.

[HD/Wrench]

Adjust the map NG is crucial .   

[BVHOG]

From my own personal experience riding out West things don't seem to change drastically till you pass that 6000 ft mark.  Start a bike up sometime at the top of Bear tooth pass and they crank like one plug is out.  I will also add that tuning at 1000 ft like we do here you have to be sure to get those low MAP numbers in line even if you can't get to them when running here as they will be in play at elevation. Where this can cause issues is you may want to add fuel to rid decel pop in a low KPA number but at altitude it will hit that area and run extremely rich . This is speaking of bikes like the 10-13 models where MAP vs RPM  VE tables are the norm.

[N-gin]

I may have a problem 
I took a look at the tunning constant area and noticed my • cuin is set at 119, when it is a 120
• fuel injectors are set to 4.9, I have 5.3
• cam IVO & IVC was not set either
• VE table is maxed at 127.5 in a lot of areas.
• I noticed it's a mt8 Cal and not a MT9.

Now I'm kind of ticked off, is this going to have dramatic effect on things? I'd imagine it will.
I spent more than the average tune (like tripple) to have things set right and they had it over a month (6 weeks).
They did make an end cap for the exhaust though.

I think maybe I should take it back but that's a 7hr drive again. Thinking of cutting my losses and severing ties. Really disappointed at this point.

[Ohio HD]

You're probably just as far from Chad, I'd contact him.


http://www.wideopencycles.net

[rigidthumper]

I may have a problem 
I took a look at the tunning constant area and noticed my • cuin is set at 119, when it is a 120
• fuel injectors are set to 4.9, I have 5.3
• cam IVO & IVC was not set either
• VE table is maxed at 127.5 in a lot of areas.
• I noticed it's a mt8 Cal and not a MT9.

Now I'm kind of ticked off, is this going to have dramatic effect on things? I'd imagine it will.
I spent more than the average tune (like tripple) to have things set right and they had it over a month (6 weeks).
They did make an end cap for the exhaust though.

I think maybe I should take it back but that's a 7hr drive again. Thinking of cutting my losses and severing ties. Really disappointed at this point.

Details of the calibration process vary with the tuner, but it's still math.  You want the AFR measured to closely match the AFR desired, and that is accomplished by adjusting the VE table, within a range- if the range is exceeded, you can change the displacement, or the injector size, (or both).  Adjusting one VE value only changes fuel for that cell for that cylinder, while changing the injector rating and/or displacement affects fuel for the entire map, so every cell needs to be adjusted after changing either of those. Usually set/adjusted very early in the tuning process.

The areas of 127.5 indicate the VE table is at it's upper limit, but where? Is that in the decel area?  Old Powercommander trick was to flood the decel area with enough fuel to eliminate/reduce decel pop, so that may have been their intent with maxing the table.
I've also seen open loop areas of the map with an occasional 127.5 (usually @ max TQ) that also happened to hit the AFR desired, so no need change the injector rating or displacement, as that would require a re-calibration of the entire map.


As for MT8 vs MT9, your tuner may have had a good base map from a previous cal, or maybe they like the EGR tables? Personal preferences. I would imagine. You can copy/paste all the data from 8 to 9 if you wish to have an MT9, as long as you use the updated version of your original map.
If it runs good, decent milage, decent manners, power, etc, no need to change anything. Sometimes looking at how they make the hot dogs changes our appetite.

[N-gin]

I hope you guys can read this.
I have been transferring the mt8 to the mt9. This is the mt9 notice the extra cells.
This is the area for that cylinder that is maxed.

[N-gin]

Here is the other one.

So I'm thinking that if the cells are maxed I'm loosing some power or maybe a change in the curve. If you look at the Dyno sheet you will see jump in the curve I'm thinking this is why.

[N-gin]

Before and after the end cap.

[rigidthumper]

The dyno sheet only reflects the very last TPS column (100%).  Whats the VE table look like?

[joe_lyons]

Egr definitely needs adjusting, along with map load normalization.

[N-gin]

Egr definitely needs adjusting, along with map load normalization.

So what exactly is map load normalization and how can you tell?

[joe_lyons]

Egr definitely needs adjusting, along with map load normalization.

So what exactly is map load normalization and how can you tell?

Map load normalization calibrates the map sensor essentially.  Those 127.5 values at the low rpm high load areas can be helped with modifying the map load normalization table.  I prefer to leave the injector size alone, only bump CI when absolutely necessary and fix high VEs with Map load normalization and EGR/CDE tables.

[Mirrmu]

Egr definitely needs adjusting, along with map load normalization.

So what exactly is map load normalization and how can you tell?

Look forward to the answer on this one

[wolf_59]

Map Normalization Gain Calibration in the TTS tuning guide 4.6.10
I have used this procedure a couple of times where KPA at my elevation is normally 83 +/- but while doing full throttle pulls I would notice at certain rpms the MAP values would be elevated to 85-89 KPA which also elevates the VE table for that area.  Running this tuning procedure will help smooth out the VE tables as well as the EGR adjustments
I have no idea how these guys can spot this stuff on your tunes but most of the time they are right on the money