Lifter Grenade

[hd99fxst]

Hi Folks,
First post - been lurking for a while.
Have had my '99 FXST since new.
SE Heads, andrews ev35 cam, Mikuni 42, Dyna 2000, SE Slip Ons, corrected gearing.
Put a new set of HD lifters in about 12k miles ago.
One recently let loose, leaving the front intake pushrod with about 1/4" of free play.

Rumor is that HD switched OEM EVO lifter suppliers from Johnson-Hylift to Delphi,
when they introduced the Twin Cam, and the Delphi EVO lifter is prone to this failure with aftermarket cams.
So I ordered a set of Johnsons.

Cam is wiped, so I will be replacing that.
Breather gear is chewed up, so I bought an S&S Reed Valve.
Was hoping that would be all it needed, but...

I have a bunch of oil blown out from the breather,
and more debris in the cam chest than I expected to see.
Spark plugs are drowned in oil.
Leakdown check shows air escaping from the exhaust.

Spoke with Scott at Hillside about going Stage 2 on the original heads instead of reworking the SEs,
boring and honing the cylinders, and using Wiseco 10:1 pistons.

It's been 15 years since I installed the SE heads.
Anything I need to remember when pulling them, so I don't create other problems (pulled studs or )?
When I get the rockers, heads, and cylinders off, how can I be sure that there is no other damage?
I don't want to spend money I don't have to, but I also don't want to get the top end done and then discover there was a problem with the flywheels or bearings, and have to open it up again.

Thanks y'all. Appreciate the help.

[Ohio HD]

Probably not what you want to hear, but the entire motor needs to be disassembled and inspected and at minimum everything needs cleaned and washed to remove metal debris. This includes your oil lines and oil tank. If oil gets to it, then so does the metal debris.

[Ironheadmike]

There's a good chance your oil pump is smoked also .

[Hillside Motorcycle]

Oil bag, oil lines, and if equipped, oil cooler, all needs to be cleaned.
Lifter bores need to be inspected as well.

[Burnout]

Bearing (lifter) explosions do the most damage and continue to eat away at motor life even after repairs.

The little bits of super hard metal get into everything, worst is they get embedded in the pistons and aluminum lifter holders, where they continue to eat away at stuff.
All of the bearings exposed to this metal debris get compromised as the little bits fracture the hard surfaces and accelerate the down hill slide.

A complete teardown and thorough cleaning is the LEAST you can do to squeeze more life after one of these bearing failures.



Here's my take on the causes of this issue, because I love to troll the naysayers!   
I don't think any of the oem lifters were bad, I am convinced they were ruined by operating in temps too high for 20-50w oil or by gasoline contamination of the oil.
ALWAYS turn your petcock off or replace a leaking petcock to prevent oil contamination.
Many owners refuse to install an oil cooler claiming they are not necessary because not standard equipment, however they are ignoring the front section of the service manual which shows they should be using heavy straight weight oil in higher temps. 60w oil is recommended in ambient temps over 80° (even on a Twin Cam!), but how do you ride at night then? So 20-50w is the answer, but with an oil cooler. The manual does not mention installing a cooler but if you read between the lines it is the logical conclusion.
ASK A SHRINER! They have learned the hard way. They even put fans on the cylinders but that is for parade duty and in addition to an oil cooler.

[Pete_Vit]

Probably not what you want to hear, but the entire motor needs to be disassembled and inspected and at minimum everything needs cleaned and washed to remove metal debris. This includes your oil lines and oil tank. If oil gets to it, then so does the metal debris.

oil lines , tank, cooler if you have one, had cam bearing go on my 96, wiped the cam of course and lifters needed to be replaced, clean as much as you can, cam chest included....etc

[david lee]

Bearing (lifter) explosions do the most damage and continue to eat away at motor life even after repairs.

The little bits of super hard metal get into everything, worst is they get embedded in the pistons and aluminum lifter holders, where they continue to eat away at stuff.
All of the bearings exposed to this metal debris get compromised as the little bits fracture the hard surfaces and accelerate the down hill slide.

A complete teardown and thorough cleaning is the LEAST you can do to squeeze more life after one of these bearing failures.



Here's my take on the causes of this issue, because I love to troll the naysayers!   
I don't think any of the oem lifters were bad, I am convinced they were ruined by operating in temps too high for 20-50w oil or by gasoline contamination of the oil.
ALWAYS turn your petcock off or replace a leaking petcock to prevent oil contamination.
Many owners refuse to install an oil cooler claiming they are not necessary because not standard equipment, however they are ignoring the front section of the service manual which shows they should be using heavy straight weight oil in higher temps. 60w oil is recommended in ambient temps over 80° (even on a Twin Cam!), but how do you ride at night then? So 20-50w is the answer, but with an oil cooler. The manual does not mention installing a cooler but if you read between the lines it is the logical conclusion.
ASK A SHRINER! They have learned the hard way. They even put fans on the cylinders but that is for parade duty and in addition to an oil cooler.

ive run a oil cooler on my 80 lowrider for 35 yrs

[hd99fxst]

Bearing (lifter) explosions do the most damage and continue to eat away at motor life even after repairs.
The little bits of super hard metal get into everything, worst is they get embedded in the pistons and aluminum lifter holders, where they continue to eat away at stuff.
All of the bearings exposed to this metal debris get compromised as the little bits fracture the hard surfaces and accelerate the down hill slide.
A complete teardown and thorough cleaning is the LEAST you can do to squeeze more life after one of these bearing failures.

By complete teardown and thorough cleaning, it sounds like you mean remove from the frame and split the cases.
Just pulling the cylinders and seeing what I can see from the top won't get it...

The more I learn about this, the more expensive it sounds to do it right and ensure no problems down the road;
It almost sounds like I need to decide between a complete rebuild ($4-5k) or crate motor ($4-10k).
Have to figure out how much of this I can really tackle myself, and get it right.
Thanks for the insights - I'm going to go do some reading on the S&S V111, and look hard at the budget.

[koko3052]

You are thinking prudently now!

[Mark222]

   for the S&S V111

I replaced my 80"er Evo when the same thing happened, 6K on a new HD lifter, crapped the bed on a run to Key West a few years back.  Left me stranded in Ocala area.   Shipped it home, did the eval and then the powerplant swap shortly after.  Bought a used 95" Deuce to finish the trip, sold upon completion of the trip.  Thinking I paid $4500 ~ for the V111 on a deal Black / Highlighted version.  Been a few years back now, not sure of the current cost of the V111

Mark

[hd99fxst]

Thanks for all the feedback, and the good words about the V111.
Unfortunately, even after checking under the sofa cushions, I come up short.

If I pull the heads and jugs, then remove the bottom end from the frame and take it to my local independent,
how many hours of labor should I expect to pay to have the cases split and bottom end inspected?
If things look good, the plan would be simply clean and reassemble.
If it needs wear items (bearings), how much should that run?
Of course, if the damage is more extensive, the new motor may still be the best option.

Thanks again y'all.

[Burnout]

How much and how far will you be riding it? How long do you plan to keep the bike? Be realistic.
If you never leave the state or only run it on the weekends there is little justification for a full teardown.
Also the motor will not come apart all at once, it will likely degrade slowly over time.
How much damage caused by the incident is relative to how long it got run with the trash in the oil.
If you ran it til it quit, and plan to ride it to Sturgis for the next 20 years, that would give more weight to replacement or at least a full teardown.
If you caught it early and don't ride much past the first saloon on a sunny day, rinse it out and ride it.

If you caught it really early I'd rinse it out (including the oil tank) good and change the oil hot a couple of times in the first hundred and do a "wait and see".

Don't tear it down because I threw a scare at you. Don't replace/rebuild the motor in a trophy bike.
You have to balance how you will use your machine with what kind of repair you make.

[Hossamania]

How much and how far will you be riding it? How long do you plan to keep the bike? Be realistic.
If you never leave the state or only run it on the weekends there is little justification for a full teardown.
Also the motor will not come apart all at once, it will likely degrade slowly over time.
How much damage caused by the incident is relative to how long it got run with the trash in the oil.
If you ran it til it quit, and plan to ride it to Sturgis for the next 20 years, that would give more weight to replacement or at least a full teardown.
If you caught it early and don't ride much past the first saloon on a sunny day, rinse it out and ride it.

If you caught it really early I'd rinse it out (including the oil tank) good and change the oil hot a couple of times in the first hundred and do a "wait and see".

Don't tear it down because I threw a scare at you. Don't replace/rebuild the motor in a trophy bike.
You have to balance how you will use your machine with what kind of repair you make.

I tend to agree with this thought. I didn't want to say it because I figured I would get some heat here. I'm a cheap SOB, and would clean up as much as I could without tearing it completely apart, and ride it until it blew. If it goes right away, I spend the money, which I would have had to do anyway. If it doesn't blow up, and I get a bunch of miles out of it, I'm money and time ahead than where I was if I were to replace it without at least trying. I could start putting some money together for a plan while it just keeps chugging along.

[Pete_Vit]

what they said  - my ICB went out heard it and felt it slug when it got hot, it never let me down, but I knew something was up , that's when I had an indy cut the filter open and diagnose my issue. so, I opted for a new/upgraded CAM and EV27, new lifters, Timkin bearings, total system rinse, including my oil cooler and my bill excluding the CAM was about 800 bills. and I've not had any issues since.

[hd99fxst]

How much and how far will you be riding it? How long do you plan to keep the bike? Be realistic.

I've had the bike twenty years. If health allows, I'd like to ride it twenty more before letting the kids fight over it.
The first twenty years has only been 25k miles - bought it when my wife was pregnant with our first child.
Most of my riding will be around town.
I used to take one big trip a year - would like to get back to that, now that the kids are grown.

Just torn between putting money into a "maybe", vs. making the bigger investment...
Rework the heads.
Pistons & bore & hone
Oil Pump...

Plenty to chew on.

[Hossamania]

If you really want it to be reliable enough to last twenty more years, and especially to make a good long trip reliably, it probably needs to be torn down all the way and checked out. Peace of mind.
Expensive, yes. But when done, and in a year from now, you will not miss the extra money you have put in it. You WILL have the peace of mind that it will not let you down.
A little extra horsepower never hurts either....

The argument against doing that, doing just the minimum to get it running, also has merit. If it works, you are out very little money comparatively. If it works for a while, and then goes bad, well, you were going to spend the money anyway, so no harm done in the long run.

[david lee]

If you really want it to be reliable enough to last twenty more years, and especially to make a good long trip reliably, it probably needs to be torn down all the way and checked out. Peace of mind.
Expensive, yes. But when done, and in a year from now, you will not miss the extra money you have put in it. You WILL have the peace of mind that it will not let you down.
A little extra horsepower never hurts either....

The argument against doing that, doing just the minimum to get it running, also has merit. If it works, you are out very little money comparatively. If it works for a while, and then goes bad, well, you were going to spend the money anyway, so no harm done in the long run.

the easy way out could cost big time in the future

[Wicked]

Don't think it's been mentioned from a shop owners standpoint or even if a shop will be involved.....  but I get to see too much of this - "How much to fix it proper verses how much to fix it cheap and fast?" My conscious won't allow me to quote the latter and I've lost jobs and probably customers over this. No matter how it's done my shop name will be associeated with the job. Maybe this helped me to stay in business since '91.....  Just going through this right now with a fellas 4 spd - there's a $1000.00cdn difference if it mattered..... It don't and I'm standing firm.

[Pete_Vit]

Don't think it's been mentioned from a shop owners standpoint or even if a shop will be involved.....  but I get to see too much of this - "How much to fix it proper verses how much to fix it cheap and fast?" My conscious won't allow me to quote the latter and I've lost jobs and probably customers over this. No matter how it's done my shop name will be associeated with the job. Maybe this helped me to stay in business since '91.....  Just going through this right now with a fellas 4 spd - there's a $1000.00cdn difference if it mattered..... It don't and I'm standing firm.

I tend to not ask if I know there may be some unknowns, the shop that replaced my cam,bearings,lifters also found debree in my oiling system, tank,lines,cooler, so I expected there to be higher labor costs, only problems was their 'Harley certified' wrench didn't adjust my adjustable push rods correctly and I almost ended spending that money again     

[mp]

If it makes you feel any better, I lost one lifter on my '92 FXRS about 135,000 miles ago, and another one about 100,000 miles ago.  The first happened on the road, so the cam and lifter got replaced and the oil and filter changed and checked for metal and back on the road.  The second time was pretty much the same thing and the bike is still running with no sign of any problem caused by the lifter failures.

[Mick93]

from my experience if a bad lifter is caught early enough it may not do much damage and be a relatively cheap and easy fix...

others i have seen have ruined most parts in the cam chest and also ruined the scavenge side of the oil pump but its fairly rare to do any damage anywhere else inside the cases.

if you have air leak down and compression losses, probably a chance something else has caused that and potentially got into the cam side and maybe ruined the lifters.... pull the heads and cylinders and check the bottom end too would be a worthwhile check IMHO