Tensioner Options For A Rivera Primo Game Changer

Started by Fat11Lo, October 07, 2018, 04:06:42 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Fat11Lo





I know I know, should have never trusted the stock auto tensioner but in my defense there was hardly a mark on the original shoe when i upgraded the comp and installed the Game Changer. Now with RP out of business calling to get another shoe is out.

I was thinking about ordering this kit

https://twinpower-usa.com/blog/twin-power-adds-32-tooth-compensator-eliminator-kit.html

See if maybe I could use the tensioner with my current set up since the RP Game Changer sprocket and the Twin power sprocket are the same size (32 tooth)  or if there is interference with the Compensaver I may try the solid crank sprocket. My only other thought would be a shorter primary chain but not sure how to figure that or where to buy a custom length chain.

Any help is appreciated
Thanks

BVHOG

Nothing as far as I know of a shorter chain, don't think it would work out.  Be interesting to see if that other tensioner works out. I would for sure give it a shot.
If you don't have a sense of humor you probably have no sense at all.

PoorUB

I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

festus

Don't like seeing that, How many miles on that set up?
Nothing is impossible if you don't have to do it yourself.

Ohio HD

Wasn't there a change to the shoe material? I seem to remember reading that they went to a black in color shoe that was a tougher material?

Skin

I just talked to Michael at Primo on Thursday last week and ordered a complete clutch hub assembly for a Brute III, I'll get it tomorrow.

topcat3815

I ordered a new tensioner shoe last week for my game changer got it last fri.  I went to there web site and ordered from one of there sales people listed on there web site. Hope this helps.

topcat3815


Fat11Lo

Quote from: topcat3815 on October 08, 2018, 04:19:34 AM
I ordered a new tensioner shoe last week for my game changer got it last fri.  I went to there web site and ordered from one of there sales people listed on there web site. Hope this helps.

Yes it does, Thank you, I'll give them a call later today



Quote from: Ohio HD on October 08, 2018, 02:42:20 AM
Wasn't there a change to the shoe material? I seem to remember reading that they went to a black in color shoe that was a tougher material?

Quote from: topcat3815 on October 08, 2018, 04:23:57 AM
The one I got was black

I thought I heard the same thing a while back, then with all the talk about them closing up. I picked this one up on eBay a few years ago but installed it last fall, so it probably is the early material that some had issues with

No Cents

   I don't think the problem started out being your tensioner shoe had sub-standard material. Look at your tensioner...that thing ratcheted up too tight causing your primary chain to become a saw blade and dig thru the shoe.
  If you get another shoe to replace the old one...take the time to set the primary chain with 5/8" deflection at the top...then mark the primary tensioner and have it welded in place so it can not over tighten.
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Fat11Lo

Quote from: No Cents on October 08, 2018, 05:26:37 AM
   I don't think the problem started out being your tensioner shoe had sub-standard material. Look at your tensioner...that thing ratcheted up too tight causing your primary chain to become a saw blade and dig thru the shoe.
  If you get another shoe to replace the old one...take the time to set the primary chain with 5/8" deflection at the top...then mark the primary tensioner and have it welded in place so it can not over tighten.

I haven't ruled that out, I just wasn't afraid of it because it never over tightened stock, there was barely a mark on the shoe, I saw how you did yours when I was originally researching the Game Changer I just didn't think it was necessary. You know how hindsight works

No Cents

   the stock primary tensioner is a one way tensioner. It will tighten the primary chain up from hard accelerations and decelerations all on it's own. The chain can not loosen back up on it's own to give the needed slack back, unless you go in and do it manually. Welding the tensioners wedge to the body with the correct chain deflection set prevents the chain from over tightening and causing what you had happen.
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Fat11Lo

Quote from: No Cents on October 08, 2018, 06:26:34 AM
   the stock primary tensioner is a one way tensioner. It will tighten the primary chain up from hard accelerations and decelerations all on it's own. The chain can not loosen back up on it's own to give the needed slack back, unless you go in and do it manually. Welding the tensioners wedge to the body with the correct chain deflection set prevents the chain from over tightening and causing what you had happen.

Makes sense, the 107 has a lot more than the 96 with 255's. Therefore I get on it a lot harder

Thanks for your insight Ray

No Cents

   I was thinking about your thread a little bit ago. As tight as your primary chain had to have gotten to do what it did to that shoe...it would of definitely had your crank and tranny main shaft in a strangle hold. You might want to check them to make sure it didn't do any other damage.
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Fat11Lo

Thanks will do

It happened pretty quick, I'm thinking 1000 miles or less, just got this motor together and tuned last fall

topcat3815

I never could get anyone to answer the phone, I sent an email to there sales people and ordered mine that way

hattitude

Quote from: Fat11Lo on October 07, 2018, 04:06:42 PM


My only other thought would be a shorter primary chain but not sure how to figure that or where to buy a custom length chain.

Any help is appreciated
Thanks

Total wild a$$ guess here...... 

I've never seen the Primo tensioner shoe, nor do I have any idea how much primary chain slack has to be accounted for, but....

If you know someone who has one of the original Hayden M6 tensioners, with the original tall springs... it MAY take up the slack in the primary chain when adding the primo sprocket...

When Hayden first came out with the M6, the springs were too tall and the tensioner was way too tight (with the OEM compensator sprocket). There were many complaints, and people stopped installing them due to the issue. Hayden started making the M6 with shorter springs, to alleviate the severe tension on the primary chain with their first, taller springs.

They sent me the shorter springs for my M6, when I wrote to them about the problems I had read about the inability to install it with their recommended spacing...

Unfortunately, I sold the bike I installed the M6 in, and tossed the larger springs when I sold the bike. But here is a pic of the difference in height between the new spring set and older spring set.... Plus, if I remember, you could shim the plunger if you needed more height..

Again, totally unaware if this added height is even close to what you need... just a thought...



No Cents

  I don't think that Hayden tensioner would work with the Game Changer 32 tooth sprocket. Stock is a larger 34 tooth comp sprocket. The smaller 32 tooth sprocket runs the factory chain and creates a sharper chain angle off the sprocket toward the tensioner shoe. This is why the shoe for the Game Changer is arched higher to allow the use of the factory chain keeping the same chain link count.
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

hattitude

Quote from: No Cents on October 08, 2018, 06:42:36 PM
  I don't think that Hayden tensioner would work with the Game Changer 32 tooth sprocket. Stock is a larger 34 tooth comp sprocket. The smaller 32 tooth sprocket runs the factory chain and creates a sharper chain angle off the sprocket toward the tensioner shoe. This is why the shoe for the Game Changer is arched higher to allow the use of the factory chain keeping the same chain link count.

Good point, I hadn't even considered the angle off the smaller sprocket...

I said it was a wild a$$ guess...

Fat11Lo

I would really like to get ahold of one of the Twin Power ones for their 32 tooth sprocket. It looks very sturdy.

92flhtcu

another week or so and we'll have the Twin Power back in stock....
Need a bigger garage

Fat11Lo

I finally got back to this, a lot going on and it's wintertime here in Ohio so it was on the back burner

I wanted to update what I found and did instead of asking a whole bunch of questions and then disappearing without any resolution

Quote from: No Cents on October 08, 2018, 09:54:01 AM
   I was thinking about your thread a little bit ago. As tight as your primary chain had to have gotten to do what it did to that shoe...it would of definitely had your crank and tranny main shaft in a strangle hold. You might want to check them to make sure it didn't do any other damage.

I've thought a lot about this the last few months so this is what I did

Transmission shaft runout was pretty easy to check and it was less than .001",



The crank however was very hard to get an accurate reading



The outer hub that the comp sprocket rides on is a bit of a sloppy fit on the splines and moves .006" back and forth with the bolt run up but not tight. I took a cell phone video but I'm having trouble posting it. I measured runout with the bolt torqued and marked the high and low spots on the inner splined hub, then I turned the outer hub 180 degrees re torqued and measured again. The high and low spots did not correlate to the marks where I measured high and low before so my conclusion is the run out that I measured was more of the poor fit of the splines than the shaft being bent. The most I measured was .008" and the least was .004" but with the play in those splines I cant believe either number to be an accurate number for crank run out

Fat11Lo

Quote from: Ohio HD on October 08, 2018, 02:42:20 AM
Wasn't there a change to the shoe material? I seem to remember reading that they went to a black in color shoe that was a tougher material?

Yes there was this is the new shoe they sent me


Fat11Lo

I ended up ordering the Twin Power 32 tooth Comp Eliminator kit because the tensioner isn't sold separately. The tensioner is a stout piece and fit nicely with the Game Changer sprocket and the Compensaver oil tray



I decided to give the solid sprocket a try and installed it, if I don't like it it will be an easy switch back to the comp



Now all I need is the weather to clear up so I can test ride.

Thanks for all of your comments and suggestions

No Cents

   If you don't mind...let us know what you think of that 32 tooth Twin Power set up after you give it a test ride.
I have gave serious thought about trying that kit when my comp or Game Changer shoe goes bad.
08 FLHX my grocery getter, 124ci, wfolarry 110" heads, Burns pipe, 158/152 sae

Tail Ridr

February 28, 2019, 03:56:16 PM #25 Last Edit: February 28, 2019, 04:02:53 PM by Tail Ridr
What is the noticed effect going from 34 to 32 tooth? RPM wise...
Eliminate the Imperfections of mass production!

Tail Ridr

Quote from: Tail Ridr on February 28, 2019, 03:56:16 PM
What is the noticed effect going from 34 to 32 tooth? RPM wise...
I'm guessing the same as dropping the trans pulley by 2...? Around 250 rpm's?
Eliminate the Imperfections of mass production!

Fat11Lo

Quote from: Tail Ridr on March 01, 2019, 03:07:20 AM
Quote from: Tail Ridr on February 28, 2019, 03:56:16 PM
What is the noticed effect going from 34 to 32 tooth? RPM wise...
I'm guessing the same as dropping the trans pulley by 2...? Around 250 rpm's?

I did a 30 tooth trans pulley at the same time so it's kinda hard to tell exactly how much it changed. Now it runs about 3000 rpm at 65 mph

1workinman

Quote from: No Cents on October 08, 2018, 05:26:37 AM
   I don't think the problem started out being your tensioner shoe had sub-standard material. Look at your tensioner...that thing ratcheted up too tight causing your primary chain to become a saw blade and dig thru the shoe.
  If you get another shoe to replace the old one...take the time to set the primary chain with 5/8" deflection at the top...then mark the primary tensioner and have it welded in place so it can not over tighten.
Thanks Ray I going to do that to my tensioner when I replace the clutch basket as soon as I can get one here

Fat11Lo

Quote from: No Cents on February 27, 2019, 06:22:35 AM
   If you don't mind...let us know what you think of that 32 tooth Twin Power set up after you give it a test ride.
I have gave serious thought about trying that kit when my comp or Game Changer shoe goes bad.

I actually had a chance to ride this bike over the weekend, just down the road to get some fresh gas in it, but I noticed no difference in it than when it had a comp in it

If I ever get enough time to get out for a real ride I will report back

FLDavetrain

currently 510ci on tap

Fat11Lo

I put about 650 on it in Sturgis, to be honest I can't tell any difference between the solid and the comp. FWIW I also have a 17 CVO street glide and I have rode them both in the same day and can't really feel any difference. Don't notice any faster reving from the weight saving like they claim either

ben31

Hi, any idea where to find tensioner shoes now? This item seems to be sold out everywhere, since a long time ago!

I have a Rivera Primo game changer on my shelve, but I hesitate to install it and get rid of my Hayden tensioner to install again the stock tensioner with the unique shoe I have...

FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

dieselbeef

i bought the evolution kit from fuel moto..30t..came with the chain at correct length..i see you solved yer issue but maybe they can get a shorter chain..i think they sell a 32t setup also.....says uses the stock tensioner

hattitude

Quote from: dieselbeef on July 20, 2021, 10:13:30 AM
i bought the evolution kit from fuel moto..30t..came with the chain at correct length..i see you solved yer issue but maybe they can get a shorter chain..i think they sell a 32t setup also.....says uses the stock tensioner

I looked hard when switching to a 32T engine sprocket... No body offers a shorter chain option for the 32T sprocket... I suspect it falls between two sizes of primary chains..

30T sprocket, you can get a proper fitting chain...

34T sprocket w/49 tooth clutch basket, you can get a proper fitting chain...

But 32T sprocket seems to only have the tensioner shoe option...

ben31

You're right. I do think the same regarding chain length with 32t.
So you run your 32t sprocket with a tensioner shoe or with a rigid tensioner as Vulcanworks one?
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

ben31

I think I will install and run my game changer with the provided add-on shoe until it fails...
Then I will look for another setup, as I cannot find this shoe anywhere...
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

kd

Quote from: hattitude on July 22, 2021, 07:41:51 AM
Quote from: dieselbeef on July 20, 2021, 10:13:30 AM
i bought the evolution kit from fuel moto..30t..came with the chain at correct length..i see you solved yer issue but maybe they can get a shorter chain..i think they sell a 32t setup also.....says uses the stock tensioner

I looked hard when switching to a 32T engine sprocket... No body offers a shorter chain option for the 32T sprocket... I suspect it falls between two sizes of primary chains..

30T sprocket, you can get a proper fitting chain...

34T sprocket w/49 tooth clutch basket, you can get a proper fitting chain...

But 32T sprocket seems to only have the tensioner shoe option...

The problem lies in the fact the Harley primary chain is a relatively short assembly (number of links) in relation to the gauge (distance between the pins).  That means a minimal change of a link or half link reduces the length by a large amount relative to the effect it has on the slack end used to support a tensioner.  The two options are to run the bottom where the tensioner goes almost flat but there is no room left for a tensioner mechanism, or to have it so long that the lower run of chain has such a wild arc that it literally changes direction 4 times between the 2 sprockets.  That puts an unmanageable load on the tensioner and mounting system.   Little wonder some are experiencing failures.  I think if you want to lower the ratio and still have a reasonable tensioner performance you have make some decisions on how you do it.  Spread it out over the 4 primary and secondary sprockets.  Nothing in this world is free so you sometimes have to pay to play (or be satisfied with less).  IMO. if the distance was longer between the primary sprockets, there would be better solutions available. 
KD

hattitude

Quote from: ben31 on July 22, 2021, 08:08:17 AM
You're right. I do think the same regarding chain length with 32t.
So you run your 32t sprocket with a tensioner shoe or with a rigid tensioner as Vulcanworks one?

I bought a 32T Sprocket Kit (#46242), from Vulcan Engineering Company. It came with a manual primary adjuster...


ben31

Thanks! Nice pic. I love your config.
Vulcan site display this kit as "Out of stock" since months.
I have subscribed to get a notif when it's available again...
FLSTNSE 14, 117ci, T-Man 625, Fastlane Heads, 58TB, 5.3 Inj, 32t sprocket, TTune

jmorton10

HC 124", Dragula, Pingel air shift W/Dyna Shift Minder & onboard compressor, NOS

hattitude

Quote from: jmorton10 on July 23, 2021, 11:05:12 AM
That looks a lot like my primary.

~John

Someday my clutch will be like yours.....!!

hattitude

Quote from: kd on July 22, 2021, 08:57:57 AM
Quote from: hattitude on July 22, 2021, 07:41:51 AM
Quote from: dieselbeef on July 20, 2021, 10:13:30 AM
i bought the evolution kit from fuel moto..30t..came with the chain at correct length..i see you solved yer issue but maybe they can get a shorter chain..i think they sell a 32t setup also.....says uses the stock tensioner

I looked hard when switching to a 32T engine sprocket... No body offers a shorter chain option for the 32T sprocket... I suspect it falls between two sizes of primary chains..

30T sprocket, you can get a proper fitting chain...

34T sprocket w/49 tooth clutch basket, you can get a proper fitting chain...

But 32T sprocket seems to only have the tensioner shoe option...

The problem lies in the fact the Harley primary chain is a relatively short assembly (number of links) in relation to the gauge (distance between the pins).  That means a minimal change of a link or half link reduces the length by a large amount relative to the effect it has on the slack end used to support a tensioner.  The two options are to run the bottom where the tensioner goes almost flat but there is no room left for a tensioner mechanism, or to have it so long that the lower run of chain has such a wild arc that it literally changes direction 4 times between the 2 sprockets.  That puts an unmanageable load on the tensioner and mounting system.   Little wonder some are experiencing failures.  I think if you want to lower the ratio and still have a reasonable tensioner performance you have make some decisions on how you do it.  Spread it out over the 4 primary and secondary sprockets.  Nothing in this world is free so you sometimes have to pay to play (or be satisfied with less).  IMO. if the distance was longer between the primary sprockets, there would be better solutions available.

Thanks for the info...  I suspected it was chain/primary length issue, I appreciate the detailed explanation... especially because I can understand it...  :teeth:

jmorton10

Someday my clutch will be like yours.....!!

Bandit Sportsman, buy it once & you'll never buy another clutch.

~John
HC 124", Dragula, Pingel air shift W/Dyna Shift Minder & onboard compressor, NOS

kd

KD

dieselbeef

Quote from: hattitude on July 22, 2021, 06:42:30 PM
Quote from: ben31 on July 22, 2021, 08:08:17 AM
You're right. I do think the same regarding chain length with 32t.
So you run your 32t sprocket with a tensioner shoe or with a rigid tensioner as Vulcanworks one?

I bought a 32T Sprocket Kit (#46242), from Vulcan Engineering Company. It came with a manual primary adjuster...



hows the rideabiity since youve done this..i got the 30...maybe install this weekend idk...anyways..heard lots of good bad about the no compensator so....what ya think...

hattitude

Quote from: dieselbeef on July 27, 2021, 06:38:53 AM
Quote from: hattitude on July 22, 2021, 06:42:30 PM
Quote from: ben31 on July 22, 2021, 08:08:17 AM
You're right. I do think the same regarding chain length with 32t.
So you run your 32t sprocket with a tensioner shoe or with a rigid tensioner as Vulcanworks one?

I bought a 32T Sprocket Kit (#46242), from Vulcan Engineering Company. It came with a manual primary adjuster...



hows the rideabiity since youve done this..i got the 30...maybe install this weekend idk...anyways..heard lots of good bad about the no compensator so....what ya think...

To be honest, I can't say I notice any major difference between the solid sprocket and the compensator sprocket in terms of smoothness, pulses, or anything like that... I suspect a person's driving style could lead some to feel a difference more than others..

I do notice the slightly lower gearing change... I like it. I thought about the 30T so I wouldn't need a thicker tensioner pad, I believe they get a different chain, but we have a lot of 70-75MPH freeways around here.  I didn't want to add too many rpms to my freeway cruising speeds. I ended up adding about 200-250 rpms over the 34T compensator at 75 -80mph..

I did notice a slightly louder whine from the primary chain, until the new tensioner pad broke in. Now I don't even notice it.. probably still a little louder than OEM due to the chain angles, but it's gotten better due to break-in and I've probably gotten use to it..

dieselbeef

yea i ride lots of backroads and dont so alotta touring style altho closest town is 40 mi away...gas is only 12 tho...lol

gonna try to do mine this weekend..wanted a pass at the track first but idk..i wanna do it...

yes the evolution kit comes with a new chain for the 30t...and uses the stock tensioner so....

i know stock im doing about 65 at 3k in 5th..