I got an e-mail from S&S this morning.
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Yeah, saw that in a notification msg this morning....nice set up. I just did some mods to mine, but work constraints i cudnt wait any longer and went w Feuling plate and HP+ pump. Feuling quality was like jewelry...but im using S&S components including camshaft....so im a big fan
Quote from: No Cents on June 25, 2018, 09:10:12 AM
I got an e-mail from S&S this morning.
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hopefully S&S can keep the oil from building up in the crank case . and stop the areriating of the oil too. Seems they have there poop in a group over the last 40 years. maybe there is hope. HD still needs to give the people a motor that will last regardless. no excuse. what is the definition of Fraud?
Can you adjust the oil pressure like with the twin cam plate?
It looks to have an adjustment screw like the Twincam pump.
Is it a three stage too?
Info on the You Tube Vid on it says adjustable Relief Pressure :up: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNvmPh7L8nk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNvmPh7L8nk)
Are the M8s having oil pump problems if they were built after 10/17? Didn't Harley update the oil pump and fix the problem?
Yes.......Some still having issues with the new Pumps.....and......No Id say they havent fixed it yet ...
Sacrificial wear plate on the camplate :up: , block off plate, hmmm............
Oil and water designator on the pump :scratch: , :idea: ah, there's two different pumps.
Pumps are 3 stage and fit oem camplates and camplates fit oem pumps but no more than 0.003 pinion rumout.
What kinda runout are you guys seeing on M8 cranks?
I came up with a little less than .002" Checked when installing a CR460 cam and lifters. (and One of the MANY improved oil pumps). I was almost afraid to check it! I had a 96" TC years ago than came up .017 I think. also found 17 ozs. of oil in the flywheel area when I pulled the plug. Was a "not so dry" sump system. A little help from R&R, Darkhorse and S&S cured that. And about broke the piggy bank. There,s nothing wrong with a Harley that can,t be fixed.....Max
Checked a few now ( Sumping Issues ) :crook: Most are around .002 most Ive seen was .003
I was told today it will be another month before the oil cooled pumps are available. I'm bummed. Wonder why the date keeps moving?
Quote from: BigT on July 10, 2018, 03:01:35 PM
I was told today it will be another month before the oil cooled pumps are available. I'm bummed. Wonder why the date keeps moving?
My guess is the demand.
Also, when I inquired with S&S about my order, I was told they were refining the install instructions.
Jumping in and doing my water cooled m8 in the morning.....no problems but have always used the S&S pump and plate in the twinks with excellent results. Stable oil pressure alone was worth it. So figure do it now as it's such a smile mod .I see the rotors on the water cooled ones are thinner than oil cooled.
Hopefully goes smooth like twinks...
KTA-Let us know how it goes/went with the job, thanks
Quote from: 92flhtcu on July 13, 2018, 05:25:20 PM
KTA-Let us know how it goes/went with the job, thanks
ordered it from my supplier had it in the next morning. Installed in afternoon after done with customer stuff.
Super simple job. Apart in 25 min and have never cracked open and m8... took my time putting the pump and plate in
Bout and hour 10 min with wiping off finger prints.S&S destructions pretty damn good I don't know how to post pictures. Not much different than the twinks I have done with S&S pumps and plates
Just dropped header down a couple inches..didn't even cut wire ties to O2s
Never even took A/c off
.Put bout 325 miles on it today
Funny thing I really think it runs a bit better
My stock cam plate has wear on the bottom side of cam hole. 6300 miles.stock plate doesn't look like it would last very long with a bit more valve spring .
Bet it's the cam tensioner holding timing steady making it run a bit better with more stable oil pressure.
I do know valve train is a bit quieter . Not a noise cold or hot start
But it was never bad... but it's better. Hey for 620 bucks and less than 2 hours
Worth it to me.... I'll do the cam after I see more testing this winter.
I am happy with it. 3 rotor pump that's got screens and a bit better tolerances .
Given how many iterations HD has for the M8 pump I can't believe they haven't just designed a three rotor pump.
Quote from: Nastytls on July 14, 2018, 04:55:20 AM
Given how many iterations HD has for the M8 pump I can't believe they haven't just designed a three rotor pump.
You would have thought they would have given enough room for a 4 stage pump
But that's not the only deal. The camplate is going too be a limiter
Too. Mine has wear at 6500 miles. Remember single cam
Moving 8 valves. Not 2 cams moving 2 valves each
I would like to see the wear on a 60k bike as they are out there
Ran across 2 couples in Utah both past that mark and had no idea of any oil
Problems. They loved them. Kinda sold me after renting s few
Quote from: KTA600 on July 14, 2018, 09:12:10 AM
Quote from: Nastytls on July 14, 2018, 04:55:20 AM
Given how many iterations HD has for the M8 pump I can't believe they haven't just designed a three rotor pump.
You would have thought they would have given enough room for a 4 stage pump
But that's not the only deal. The camplate is going too be a limiter
Too. Mine has wear at 6500 miles. Remember single cam
Moving 8 valves. Not 2 cams moving 2 valves each
I would like to see the wear on a 60k bike as they are out there
Ran across 2 couples in Utah both past that mark and had no idea of any oil
Problems. They loved them. Kinda sold me after renting s few
They are out there for sure....had a guy in to the shop last week from Oklahoma 17 Ultra M8 73000 Miles ...no issues..UNTIL this day.... Stalling...Running Hot....Rattling in Rear CYL....I took 17 OZ out of the Sump......Yup shes done
Quote from: KTA600 on July 14, 2018, 09:12:10 AM
Quote from: Nastytls on July 14, 2018, 04:55:20 AM
Given how many iterations HD has for the M8 pump I can't believe they haven't just designed a three rotor pump.
You would have thought they would have given enough room for a 4 stage pump
But that's not the only deal. The camplate is going too be a limiter
Too. Mine has wear at 6500 miles. Remember single cam
Moving 8 valves. Not 2 cams moving 2 valves each
I would like to see the wear on a 60k bike as they are out there
Ran across 2 couples in Utah both past that mark and had no idea of any oil
Problems. They loved them. Kinda sold me after renting s few
I was wondering about the cam bore in the plate myself. Even the TC have measureable wear in the bore on lower miles if you go looking for it with a mike. Always felt the feed hole was too small to create a good oil wedge. Nothing wrong with running a cam in the bore like that but it needs good oil flow. Then again with all the sumping crap, in this case might not be advisable as that would increase it.
Ron
Quote from: HV on July 15, 2018, 07:24:25 AM
Quote from: KTA600 on July 14, 2018, 09:12:10 AM
Quote from: Nastytls on July 14, 2018, 04:55:20 AM
Given how many iterations HD has for the M8 pump I can't believe they haven't just designed a three rotor pump.
You would have thought they would have given enough room for a 4 stage pump
But that's not the only deal. The camplate is going too be a limiter
Too. Mine has wear at 6500 miles. Remember single cam
Moving 8 valves. Not 2 cams moving 2 valves each
I would like to see the wear on a 60k bike as they are out there
Ran across 2 couples in Utah both past that mark and had no idea of any oil
Problems. They loved them. Kinda sold me after renting s few
They are out there for sure....had a guy in to the shop last week from Oklahoma 17 Ultra M8 73000 Miles ...no issues..UNTIL this day.... Stalling...Running Hot....Rattling in Rear CYL....I took 17 OZ out of the Seump......Yup shes done
there more than likely will be a lot of these bikes having issues later on and when warranty is gone. the owner in too may cases be making payments on the bike and then trying to save money for a new motor. will be many more issues down the road unfortunately. many have had multiple motors, as some have had other issues going on. all of which to date have not seen or read about a real fix. hope it is coming soon to be sure
Quote from: HV on July 15, 2018, 07:24:25 AM
Quote from: KTA600 on July 14, 2018, 09:12:10 AM
Quote from: Nastytls on July 14, 2018, 04:55:20 AM
Given how many iterations HD has for the M8 pump I can't believe they haven't just designed a three rotor pump.
You would have thought they would have given enough room for a 4 stage pump
But that's not the only deal. The camplate is going too be a limiter
Too. Mine has wear at 6500 miles. Remember single cam
Moving 8 valves. Not 2 cams moving 2 valves each
I would like to see the wear on a 60k bike as they are out there
Ran across 2 couples in Utah both past that mark and had no idea of any oil
Problems. They loved them. Kinda sold me after renting s few
They are out there for sure....had a guy in to the shop last week from Oklahoma 17 Ultra M8 73000 Miles ...no issues..UNTIL this day.... Stalling...Running Hot....Rattling in Rear CYL....I took 17 OZ out of the Sump......Yup shes done
that's a lot of miles in not a lot of time
Ya a Lot of Miles...Buddy sold his house...cars etc...said that bike is all he owns now...Bought it last April and has been on the road every since
Quote from: HV on July 15, 2018, 03:56:55 PM
Ya a Lot of Miles...Buddy sold his house...cars etc...said that bike is all he owns now...Bought it last April and has been on the road every since
had some fun while it lasted I bet.
The oil cooled pump is available ....installed one yesterday. Side note I have had crank cases with as much as 14oz in them and it had 4 oz next day... I don't know what the proper procedure is before u check it.....not a dealer or pro engine builder on this stuff at all....
Quote from: KTA600 on July 20, 2018, 02:30:59 PM
The oil cooled pump is available ....installed one yesterday. Side note I have had crank cases with as much as 14oz in them and it had 4 oz next day... I don't know what the proper procedure is before u check it.....not a dealer or pro engine builder on this stuff at all....
Curious who did you get the pump and plate from?
Quote from: KTA600 on July 20, 2018, 02:30:59 PM
The oil cooled pump is available ....installed one yesterday. Side note I have had crank cases with as much as 14oz in them and it had 4 oz next day... I don't know what the proper procedure is before u check it.....not a dealer or pro engine builder on this stuff at all....
heck of it is if you get 8 oz out, it seem from what I have read, another 8pz in the bottom of cases if you pull the plug in the case which is way lower than the sensor you pull to do the check. that means there in reality a lot of oil in the dry sump motor. then what ever happens the dang thing will show maybe I\8th " on the stick way below add mark and the motor is boiling and not able to pull itself and it smoking hot. you feel it on your leg and right boot. all this can happen just riding along at cruseing speeds, all of a sudden the motor is hammering. its all over but the tow. nuff to p/o da pope!
On my M8 RGS, after the sensor hole quit draining I had an additional 5oz from the case plug for a total of 8oz.
Quote from: Durwood on July 21, 2018, 06:17:52 AM
On my M8 RGS, after the sensor hole quit draining I had an additional 5oz from the case plug for a total of 8oz.
how much came out when the sensor was pulled. if the bike was not sumping it makes sense . I gather yours is a one that does not sump? lucky you.
Quote from: happyman on July 21, 2018, 07:25:36 AM
Quote from: Durwood on July 21, 2018, 06:17:52 AM
On my M8 RGS, after the sensor hole quit draining I had an additional 5oz from the case plug for a total of 8oz.
how much came out when the sensor was pulled. if the bike was not sumping it makes sense . I gather yours is a one that does not sump? lucky you.
Mine isn't sumping. With the sensor pulled it drained 3oz, then add the 5oz that drained from the case plug for a total of 8oz.
I would like to see less, maybe this pump and plate will help.
Quote from: Durwood on July 21, 2018, 02:07:57 PM
Quote from: happyman on July 21, 2018, 07:25:36 AM
Quote from: Durwood on July 21, 2018, 06:17:52 AM
On my M8 RGS, after the sensor hole quit draining I had an additional 5oz from the case plug for a total of 8oz.
how much came out when the sensor was pulled. if the bike was not sumping it makes sense . I gather yours is a one that does not sump? lucky you.
Mine isn't sumping. With the sensor pulled it drained 3oz, then add the 5oz that drained from the case plug for a total of 8oz.
I would like to see less, maybe this pump and plate will help.
yes like maybe a few drops since it is called a dry sump motor!
So 32 oz total is an issue :nix: HA HA just delt with that , then had a bike that snapped the cam bolt and the cam ran into the lifters and the case,
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on July 31, 2018, 05:44:21 AM
So 32 oz total is an issue :nix: HA HA just delt with that , then had a bike that snapped the cam bolt and the cam ran into the lifters and the case,
Heard of the cam bolts snapping before. Why is that Steve. :idunno: Should be no real load on it other then clamping.
Ron
There is 35 ftlbs on it Funny had two in one week , one a twin cam I built over 14 months ago that came in for hot running . it had piston noise pulled it down sure enough out of round signs of heat on the under side pulled oilers and found them to be plugged . One tiny piece would stick to the magnet. Pulled cam chest apart found broken cam bolt No idea how long it was that way but engine had over 10,000 on it since the build , then the M8 . :emoGroan:
New cam bolts going into every build at this point ..
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on July 31, 2018, 05:44:21 AM
So 32 oz total is an issue :nix: HA HA just delt with that , then had a bike that snapped the cam bolt and the cam ran into the lifters and the case,
Had cam bolts on m8 snap twice same motor. Was an issue of balance. Forget all details but the marks were on the balances but not on the shaft and that was an issue that would cause cam bolts to snap
After 2 cam bolts broke and nobody else is seeing it? Maybe get a new torque wrench or put the impact down. I will say torquing that one too 34 is a bit much for my liking. They both get loctite and 18 on crank 25 on cam.
Have to agree on new bolts if your torquing too spec
That's to much stretch..
Quote from: KTA600 on August 03, 2018, 04:48:00 AM
After 2 cam bolts broke and nobody else is seeing it? Maybe get a new torque wrench or put the impact down. I will say torquing that one too 34 is a bit much for my liking. They both get loctite and 18 on crank 25 on cam.
Have to agree on new bolts if your torquing too spec
That's to much stretch..
it has been seen by others and yes the people doing the work understand and use the proper tools and torque values and sequence along with the rest.
Quote from: KTA600 on August 03, 2018, 04:48:00 AM
After 2 cam bolts broke and nobody else is seeing it? Maybe get a new torque wrench or put the impact down. I will say torquing that one too 34 is a bit much for my liking. They both get loctite and 18 on crank 25 on cam.
Have to agree on new bolts if your torquing too spec
That's to much stretch..
should have mentioned it was a traveling tech from HD that did the work. and yes he did know what he was doing. and yes he did have the tool and the ability. did know his way around and the how and why .
I use a snap on electronic that zeros every time . and I have a wrench that is std that was certified on re cal and I have tested them together . and I had one break with over 10,000 miles on it :nix:. no idea why and I would never run that much less on the tq spec .
Again it seems to be not common per say but it does happen , new bolt or reuse the old bolt seem to not matter .. I am going to start using the allen head version on all builds from now on
Quote from: happyman on July 31, 2018, 07:44:37 AM
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on July 31, 2018, 05:44:21 AM
So 32 oz total is an issue :nix: HA HA just delt with that , then had a bike that snapped the cam bolt and the cam ran into the lifters and the case,
Had cam bolts on m8 snap twice same motor. Was an issue of balance. Forget all details but the marks were on the balances but not on the shaft and that was an issue that would cause cam bolts to snap
Can't see how a balancer out of time , removed and thrown across the street would have any effect on a cam bolt. Something must be putting load cycles on the bolt during operation.
Ron
Anybody hear of the oil cooled pumps and plates shipping yet? I've emailed S&S numerous times and keep being told "in a couple of weeks"
I received a set two days ago through drag. Ordered it 3 weeks ago. they had around 100 being shipped to them and had 60 pre sold when we ordered it. I am assuming they were all sold before they received them.
Got a plate last week from Drag and have another on order said to be next month, As for the cam bolts I am using the Feuling kit with the arp fasteners, local dealer has had 4 come in this year with bolts broke or turned out.
All set. Just picked it up. Three months of having to keep the rpms low so it doesn't sump are over! Kinda sucked having 117" and I had to drive like an old lady lol
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on August 03, 2018, 06:49:48 AM
I use a snap on electronic that zeros every time . and I have a wrench that is std that was certified on re cal and I have tested them together . and I had one break with over 10,000 miles on it :nix:. no idea why and I would never run that much less on the tq spec .
Again it seems to be not common per say but it does happen , new bolt or reuse the old bolt seem to not matter .. I am going to start using the allen head version on all builds from now on
Well it's got over 10k on it now so 4K or so with the water cooled SS OIL PUMP AND CAMPLATE I installed while back.After reading some of your tech I think I will trust your judgement and go in the cam chest replace the bolt. I did see one bolt that bottomed out on a aftermarket cam. So going to measure that to see how close and how much stretch on used bolt. Maybe pull plate and pump take a look.....can't post pictures but I'll measure for wear . No problems but I do like to tinker. Lol
Best new bike I have owned...cam it this winter
Quote from: bigcraig on July 10, 2018, 04:01:42 PM
Quote from: BigT on July 10, 2018, 03:01:35 PM
I was told today it will be another month before the oil cooled pumps are available. I'm bummed. Wonder why the date keeps moving?
My guess is the demand.
Also, when I inquired with S&S about my order, I was told they were refining the install instructions.
New batch has no wear plate!
Why the new instructions where needed
Installed newly released oil cooled pump and plate yesterday and put some higher rpm miles on it. I didn't notice any drag on the motor but the oil level seemed a tad lower than expected when I got home. The motor cooled down over night and I started it and let it idle upright for a couple of minutes and rechecked oil still low. Pulled sensor bottom of case and got just under 11oz out. Not happy. Going to pull it back apart tomorrow and check to see if I might of screwed something up which is doubtful.
That's not encouraging. Never hurts to double check things, but I agree, probably not an install issue.
Quote from: BigT on September 17, 2018, 05:29:04 PM
Installed newly released oil cooled pump and plate yesterday and put some higher rpm miles on it. I didn’t notice any drag on the motor but the oil level seemed a tad lower than expected when I got home. The motor cooled down over night and I started it and let it idle upright for a couple of minutes and rechecked oil still low. Pulled sensor bottom of case and got just under 11oz out. Not happy. Going to pull it back apart tomorrow and check to see if I might of screwed something up which is doubtful.
You have been running with oil in crankcase since May but no heat or problems other than pulling sensor? To be honest I have not had any problems but was aware when I bought may 23 . Checked several times....3-4 oz one time....13oz next time 7oz and so on......I don't even bother anymore after SS pump and plate. But you went to 117? I would be tempted to check the piston jets( MOCO name for coolers). Also the check valve if your having no trouble other than to much oil . ( might be Drain back on and oil cooled) I have seen one "piston jet" damaged by a dealer install. No on hands experience with either. But may just pull that check valve and look at it.
I also only run 3.6 -3.8 quarts of oil in the 3 m8 s I am playing with( add mark on stick) use no oil in the 3000-5000 mile oil changes.
I just talked to S&S and questioned the amount of oil I found in the sump. He asked me if I had a sumping problem before I installed their pump. When I said I did he said call HD there's a problem with their cases that their pump doesn't solve the problem. Would be nice if they happen to mention that in their ad!
Quote from: BigT on September 18, 2018, 11:19:42 AM
I just talked to S&S and questioned the amount of oil I found in the sump. He asked me if I had a sumping problem before I installed their pump. When I said I did he said call HD there's a problem with their cases that their pump doesn't solve the problem. Would be nice if they happen to mention that in their ad!
H'mm thought it was marketed on more efficient scavenging by its design ?
Quote from: KTA600 on July 20, 2018, 02:30:59 PM
The oil cooled pump is available ....installed one yesterday. Side note I have had crank cases with as much as 14oz in them and it had 4 oz next day... I don't know what the proper procedure is before u check it.....not a dealer or pro engine builder on this stuff at all....
Sorry if this is a stupid question but if you have a 18 model m8 softail, obviously it doesn't have the latest oil pump manufactured by HD.... So my question is, do you need to upgrade the pump? And can you upgrade the pump only without having to put an entire aftermarket cam plate in like the ones fueling and S&S are offering? Can't stretch my budget that far.
Thanks
Quote from: Adam76 on November 24, 2018, 06:32:58 PM
Quote from: KTA600 on July 20, 2018, 02:30:59 PM
The oil cooled pump is available ....installed one yesterday. Side note I have had crank cases with as much as 14oz in them and it had 4 oz next day... I don't know what the proper procedure is before u check it.....not a dealer or pro engine builder on this stuff at all....
Sorry if this is a stupid question but if you have a 18 model m8 softail, obviously it doesn't have the latest oil pump manufactured by HD.... So my question is, do you need to upgrade the pump? And can you upgrade the pump only without having to put an entire aftermarket cam plate in like the ones fueling and S&S are offering? Can't stretch my budget that far.
Thanks
All you would need is the new cover plate with the seal about $30
Quote from: BigT on November 25, 2018, 04:52:36 AM
Quote from: Adam76 on November 24, 2018, 06:32:58 PM
Quote from: KTA600 on July 20, 2018, 02:30:59 PM
The oil cooled pump is available ....installed one yesterday. Side note I have had crank cases with as much as 14oz in them and it had 4 oz next day... I don't know what the proper procedure is before u check it.....not a dealer or pro engine builder on this stuff at all....
Sorry if this is a stupid question but if you have a 18 model m8 softail, obviously it doesn't have the latest oil pump manufactured by HD.... So my question is, do you need to upgrade the pump? And can you upgrade the pump only without having to put an entire aftermarket cam plate in like the ones fueling and S&S are offering? Can't stretch my budget that far.
Thanks
All you would need is the new cover plate with the seal about $30
Awesome, too easy. Thanks BigT. 👍
So it wasn't the pump itself that was upgraded, just the cover seal?
The pump was last upgraded in 10-17 so if your bikes build date is after or near that date it should be the latest. That being said the oil pump didn't fix the issue for the most part, so you should be good with just using the cover with seal, if you're not having any problems & aren't already in the cam chest I wouldn't open it up replace anything. I did a cam change & asked FM if I should replace the pump & they said they only did it if there was a prior problem, I replaced it anyway for insurance just so I didn't have to go back in, the pump is about $100 at discount. It's your call, but if you don't have any problems I'd leave it alone.
'
Quote from: DTTJGlide on November 25, 2018, 06:30:29 PM
The pump was last upgraded in 10-17 so if your bikes build date is after or near that date it should be the latest. That being said the oil pump didn't fix the issue for the most part, so you should be good with just using the cover with seal, if you're not having any problems & aren't already in the cam chest I wouldn't open it up replace anything. I did a cam change & asked FM if I should replace the pump & they said they only did it if there was a prior problem, I replaced it anyway for insurance just so I didn't have to go back in, the pump is about $100 at discount. It's your call, but if you don't have any problems I'd leave it alone.
'
Early 18 build date, so I should be sweet. Thanks again for the info. 👍
That pump seal is not from 2017, it's only been out for a few months AFAIK.