Like many others I would like to know if the moco has done anything to eliminate the sumping problems that some experience. I know there are some very sharp people (and others) on this site who can access parts breakdowns and see if the cases and or scavenging setup has been changed for the 19 m8.
I have a 2017 RGU that does not sump or transfer tranny fluid. I like the looks of the 2019 orange and black RGU and the 114 motor but if harley is going for a 3rd year of spin the wheel i,ll certainly pass.
Someone did post that they saw the new bike have a different clutch acuator and the plastic shield thingy....
But it seems those efforts were less that successful in the past.
I,m sure I,m not the only one that would like to know If anything has been changed. Even if it has It will be a while before we know if running changes correct the shortcomings on the 17/18 models. A fellow on the "other" forum called heat wave was told that the last replacement motor in his CVO was a 2019 motor. He has put quite a few miles on it without issue. Today the beta testers will spin the wheel. I truly hope something was done the correct the problems that "most" dealers "have never heard of"..
If someone can check the part numbers and post a link or something that would be great. Thanks Max
There's a differant cover for the oil pump assembly that has an added seal the the previous years didn't have.
2019 air cooled
11293 o-ring
62400206 cover oil pump assy
62400205 oil seal
2017 air cooled
11293 o-ring
62400125 cover oil pump assy
ANOTHER REASON NOT TO BE THE 1st KID ON YOUR BLOCK TO OWN THE "ALL NEW" (fill in the blanks...) :baby:
I'd wait to see if they have any success before we wave a flag of victory...... they're new parts, but one has to see long term results first.
New Oil Pump Back Plate
If you order the latest pump does that seal come with it?
No...this is a completely new Back plate for the pump ( seal is part of the Plate ) ...Im thinking it may be available on the new 2019s...we will see...not in the parts systems yet....
What's the theory behind this? Why would this seal be needed?
So it doesn't breath through the bearing I would assume
Quote from: BVHOG on August 27, 2018, 02:37:58 PM
So it doesn't breath through the bearing I would assume
Yeah thought that also, but this is on oil pump mating face, not pump to shaft seal?
intriguing
Im told the new 2019s will all have this Plate Mod
I'm guessing the thicker plate prevents warping, so the scavenge side of the pump seals/works better. Plate seal would combine with the oring on the pinion shaft to isolate the lower end, but now I'm wondering how the crankcase breathes?
OEMpartfinder.htm#/---2019/FLHXS_1KRP_STREET_GLIDE_SPECIAL_(2019)//CAMSHAFTS_A (https://shop.outpostalaska.com/OEMpartfinder.htm#/Harley-Davidson%C2%AE/FLHXS_1KRP_STREET_GLIDE_SPECIAL_(2019)/CAMSHAFTS_AND_CAMSHAFT_COVER/1KRP//2019/FLHXS_1KRP_STREET_GLIDE_SPECIAL_(2019)//CAMSHAFTS_A)
One other thing that has been changed at least on the 114 motors is that the crank wheels have been narrowed, not sure what the reasoning is behind this but I would assume narrower would mean more volume in case and less oil shearing.
On the last two 114s that sumped I found the Plates had warped on the pumps...the new plate should fix this :up:
Quote from: rigidthumper on August 30, 2018, 08:46:36 AM
I'm guessing the thicker plate prevents warping, so the scavenge side of the pump seals/works better. Plate seal would combine with the oring on the pinion shaft to isolate the lower end, but now I'm wondering how the crankcase breathes?
OEMpartfinder.htm#/---2019/FLHXS_1KRP_STREET_GLIDE_SPECIAL_(2019)//CAMSHAFTS_A (https://shop.outpostalaska.com/OEMpartfinder.htm#/Harley-Davidson%C2%AE/FLHXS_1KRP_STREET_GLIDE_SPECIAL_(2019)/CAMSHAFTS_AND_CAMSHAFT_COVER/1KRP//2019/FLHXS_1KRP_STREET_GLIDE_SPECIAL_(2019)//CAMSHAFTS_A)
Good question!The lower end can still breathe through the cam bearings but sealing off the pinion bearing reduces it drastically. Maybe it will lubricate the cam bearings better as well :idea:. I am still trying to wrap my head around the theory of this fix. :scratch:
I am thinking of getting a new 18 Heritage. Are there a lot of the 18's that have this sumping issue. Seems some had sumping issues on the twin cam as well.
Ive not seen or heard of a Softail Sumping yet
:beer: :up:
Thanks that's what I was needing to hear.
That kit must be available as I pulled a 18 apart for cam swap never saw that seal before . Dealer had just did the sumping repair :nix:. No oil pressure was Complaint dealer installs pump no other work done :hyst: I would tell you if it works but the clutch is slipping had 64 or so oz in primary .. No idea transfer or tech that just added qt on top
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 01, 2018, 05:29:58 AM
That kit must be available as I pulled a 18 apart for cam swap never saw that seal before . Dealer had just did the sumping repair :nix:. No oil pressure was Complaint dealer installs pump no other work done :hyst: I would tell you if it works but the clutch is slipping had 64 or so oz in primary .. No idea transfer or tech that just added qt on top
LOL
Check the transmission fluid, see if it even registers on the stick. If not, then it has some serious transfer, if fine, well, the HD tech needs a beating!
Trans was clean and about half way . So best guess he just added another qt. pack looked ok a bit worn bike has just over 10,000 on it .. Installed new pack shim kit for some extra clamping power and that is all good .
However came in to office ..... cool off temp wise and mentally as well . They did not get the cap on the rad fill all the way and it popped to the first notch while tuning and made a huge freaking mess :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:.
So just got done taking care of that screw up .. :emoGroan:
Stepping back into the box to complete the tune
Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on September 01, 2018, 08:39:42 AM
Trans was clean and about half way . So best guess he just added another qt. pack looked ok a bit worn bike has just over 10,000 on it .. Installed new pack shim kit for some extra clamping power and that is all good .
However came in to office ..... cool off temp wise and mentally as well . They did not get the cap on the rad fill all the way and it popped to the first notch while tuning and made a huge freaking mess :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:.
So just got done taking care of that screw up .. :emoGroan:
Stepping back into the box to complete the tune
Nothing worse than fixing issues caused by "certified" techs!
I love my '15 SGS but when I asked my dealer what I'd get on a trade I just about fell over on how generous he was on a '19 M8.
$10,000 difference plus tax and they will include a full Stage 1 ($1569) on a vivid black FLTRX
I am seriously considering it but would be so nervous over the upcoming winter until I can log miles on it if she'll keep oil where it's supposed to be and not sump.
Quote from: DeneFLHR on October 14, 2018, 10:15:33 PM
I love my '15 SGS but when I asked my dealer what I'd get on a trade I just about fell over on how generous he was on a '19 M8.
$10,000 difference plus tax and they will include a full Stage 1 ($1569) on a vivid black FLTRX
I am seriously considering it but would be so nervous over the upcoming winter until I can log miles on it if she'll keep oil where it's supposed to be and not sump.
Maybe you can work a deal with the bike staying there til spring, if you bring your used bike in now . That would start the warranty when you pick it up.
What difference does it make when you pick it up, warranty wise? Start the warranty in the spring and it spends the last months of the warranty parked in the garage. Pick it up now and the warranty runs out when you park it for winter, two years from now.
Quote from: hogpipes1 on October 15, 2018, 08:06:21 AM
Quote from: DeneFLHR on October 14, 2018, 10:15:33 PM
I love my '15 SGS but when I asked my dealer what I'd get on a trade I just about fell over on how generous he was on a '19 M8.
$10,000 difference plus tax and they will include a full Stage 1 ($1569) on a vivid black FLTRX
I am seriously considering it but would be so nervous over the upcoming winter until I can log miles on it if she'll keep oil where it's supposed to be and not sump.
Maybe you can work a deal with the bike staying there til spring, if you bring your used bike in now . That would start the warranty when you pick it up.
That's a heck of a good idea. I'm going to request that but like PoorUB says, I still get two seasons under warranty.
Hopefully there will be more feedback on this for the 2019's. I'd really like to have a 19 with a 114, but on hold for now.
I know it's still early, but still not much chatter on the 19s?
The way there going you'll be lucky if they get em right in the next ten years :hyst: :hyst: :hyst:
Quote from: Reddog74usa on October 31, 2018, 08:28:50 AM
The way there going you'll be lucky if they get em right in the next ten years :hyst: :hyst: :hyst:
there will be another experiment for the public from HD to test before then. then start all over again! can't imagine another failure like these m8 have been
So the flywheel cavity breaths through the pinion bearing into the cam cavity. With this new seal I guess it now stops that. So what happens to the pressure and vacuum? Reason for my inquiry is that I have a customer with 2019 trike with this new seal and he is having some issues. I did install a 465 cam and tuned to and followed the new tq sequence. Bike was fine for over 1k miles after cam and tune. Excessive oil is soaking the AN big sucker air filter and his oil levels are going down. He had 8oz when draining from the sump plug and 37oz when I drained the primary(trans oil level is good). When the bike is running I do not feel any air movement from the head breathers at all. So what the hell?
I have been trying to understand what this seal does to, other than the obvious. It will stop or reduce oil moving from the cam chest to the crankcase, but why does it stop sumping, and like Joe asks, where does the crankcase ventilate? Cam bearing only? Seems like a screwed up deal to me I would want as much air movement out of the crankcase to the cam chest as possible.
Is it safe to say the S&S pump cam plate kit fixes all the sumping issues? I believe I've read it does in other threads but just making sure since I've already ordered mine. :smilep:
Quote from: RoadGlideRob on November 01, 2018, 04:57:44 PM
Is it safe to say the S&S pump cam plate kit fixes all the sumping issues? I believe I've read it does in other threads but just making sure since I've already ordered mine. :smilep:
When talking with S&S today they say most of the time yes unless there is an underlying issue that no oil pump would fix.
Quote from: PoorUB on November 01, 2018, 03:32:22 PM
I have been trying to understand what this seal does to, other than the obvious. It will stop or reduce oil moving from the cam chest to the crankcase, but why does it stop sumping, and like Joe asks, where does the crankcase ventilate? Cam bearing only? Seems like a screwed up deal to me I would want as much air movement out of the crankcase to the cam chest as possible.
I agree. Makes no damn sense to me.Without venting the crank area to the cam side the whole process is useless. It has to be a shared unit between the crank area and the cam side since the path for the air is up the pushrod tubes to the breather valve area. Like you say, you want all the air out of the crank area on piston down stroke to achieve a static to slight negative pressure in that area. Positive pressure is not desired at all.
Ron
I have been trying to wrap my head around this as well. They have released zero info on what the new oil pump plate does, From what i have been told it is supposed to act like an umbrella valve. So judging by how the seal looks i figure it will let a certain amount of downstroke pressure through into the cam compartment and not let oil/pressure back into the flywheel compartment? :nix: I have installed 3 backplates now and once they are installed they have more resistance due to pressure movement (or lack of) when rotating the engine with the rear wheel in high gear with the plugs out, makes for some different noises than used to. It reminds me of the S&S reed valve assembly that came out in the early twin cam days for carryover problems. Just my thoughts, would love to know the exact explanation behind it. :banghead:
Love to hear the HD theory behind this, as it seems to retro fit to early pumps ?
So all those pump revisions, going down a blind alley?
Quote from: joe_lyons on November 01, 2018, 05:46:27 PM
Quote from: RoadGlideRob on November 01, 2018, 04:57:44 PM
Is it safe to say the S&S pump cam plate kit fixes all the sumping issues? I believe I've read it does in other threads but just making sure since I've already ordered mine. :smilep:
When talking with S&S today they say most of the time yes unless there is an underlying issue that no oil pump would fix.
I had called S&S and asked why I was still getting 12oz of oil out of the sump after installing their pump and plate. The tech said "did you have a sumping issue before you installed our pump....we never claimed our pump fixes the sumping problem"
Pulled out the S&S pump and plate and install the HD plate with the seal and the sumping issues stopped. Save your money.
That's what I like about S&S. They must of took lessons for Harley. It must be the new way of doing business.
Quote from: joe_lyons on November 01, 2018, 02:23:20 PM
So the flywheel cavity breaths through the pinion bearing into the cam cavity. With this new seal I guess it now stops that. So what happens to the pressure and vacuum? Reason for my inquiry is that I have a customer with 2019 trike with this new seal and he is having some issues. I did install a 465 cam and tuned to and followed the new tq sequence. Bike was fine for over 1k miles after cam and tune. Excessive oil is soaking the AN big sucker air filter and his oil levels are going down. He had 8oz when draining from the sump plug and 37oz when I drained the primary(trans oil level is good). When the bike is running I do not feel any air movement from the head breathers at all. So what the hell?
Joe, been issues with the AN big sucker doing that, apparently AN selling updated backplate $30 !
some found it stops if motor only filled midway between marks on dipstick
Quote from: BigT on November 02, 2018, 06:02:30 AM
Quote from: joe_lyons on November 01, 2018, 05:46:27 PM
Quote from: RoadGlideRob on November 01, 2018, 04:57:44 PM
Is it safe to say the S&S pump cam plate kit fixes all the sumping issues? I believe I’ve read it does in other threads but just making sure since I’ve already ordered mine. :smilep:
When talking with S&S today they say most of the time yes unless there is an underlying issue that no oil pump would fix.
I had called S&S and asked why I was still getting 12oz of oil out of the sump after installing their pump and plate. The tech said “did you have a sumping issue before you installed our pump....we never claimed our pump fixes the sumping problem”
Pulled out the S&S pump and plate and install the HD plate with the seal and the sumping issues stopped. Save your money.
So since you took out the S&S pump and put the new Harley cover with the seal, is there an O-ring on the pinion shaft as well, or only the seal on the cover? In an earlier post in this thread made by rigidthumper, he stated "Plate seal would combine with the O-ring on the pinion shaft to isolate lower end.." I haven't had my pump out yet and I can't tell by the drawings if the O-ring (#8 in drawing) is on the scavenge port or the pinion shaft
It does look like that o-ring is on the pinion shaft according to the parts breakdown, but it's the o-ring for the scavenge port on the oil pump. Hope that helps.
Quote from: JMHD on November 12, 2018, 09:01:51 PM
It does look like that o-ring is on the pinion shaft according to the parts breakdown, but it's the o-ring for the scavenge port on the oil pump. Hope that helps.
Yes it does help, that is what I was thinking too. I have all the parts to do a cam swap including the new oil pump with the latest cover with the seal. I just wanted to make sure if there is a O-ring on the shaft then I need to get one. That drawing is not clear at all to me. Thanks!
:beer: :up:
There's two orings in the cam cavity-11293 and 11900103. I thought one was to seal the pinion shaft, but it appears that one is for the plate ( pick up side) and one is for the pump ( flywheel sump)