Hey. Hoping someone may have a clue what's going on with my apparently unsolvable issue with my bike.
Some stats about the bike first
2010 96ci FLHTCU, Huge 8" breather. Free flow slip on Exhaust. S&S 551ce easy start cams. Powervision Tuner running a decent map.
Problem is bike will not start after shutting off.
More detail. The bike runs well, lots of power, good gas mileage. No odd noises. If I start it up to head out for a trip it always starts great. If I shut it off after a short or long ride, I can't get it going again. Turns over great, fuel pump comes on like normal. It just won't fire up. Even tried opening the fuel fill as one idea while trying to start it. Maybe in an hour or so later it will start. Also, If I start it to head out for same trip but say forgot wallet and immediately shut it off, again it will not start again. So doesn't seem to make a difference if it's warm, hot or cold. When I finally do get it going again it runs perfectly.
I have replaced the gas filter, air filter, plugs, cleaned the injectors, tried different fuel grades. I also replaced the battery as it was getting old. None of these things made the slightest difference. I gave up and took it into a shop. They checked for the pin hole in gas line issue and did fuel pressure test, spark etc. $$$ later they said it was ready after much head scratching. They determined it was the ignition assembly but guess what happened when I shut it off. It would not start again. I don't believe the bike shop is simply trying to line their pockets but I need some advice before I go broke chasing this down. Maybe I can help them come up with some things to try.
What do you mean a decent map? Has it ever been tuned? I see you have easy start cams ever try a compression test to see what it is relieved? Maybe not enough squeeze to get spark. Or does the ion sensor work like that? Maybe someone else will answer that. Bob
I would guess someone needs to adjust the start up tables in the ECM.
Opening the fuel fiiler on an injected bike? Unlikely. if the tank was not venting it would die while running.
What is the cranking compression. Maybe the easy starts are bleeding off too much compression and the engine does no slow enough on the compression stroke for the ECM to know when to fire the ignition. Does it have spark when this happens?
From S&S and may be revelant
• Stock EFI engines require a minimum of 80 PSI cranking compression, checked with the throttle open, for the ECU to fire the spark plugs.
• S&S easy start cams were designed to work with specific compression ratio and displacement combinations. If an Easy Start cam set is used in an application other than what it was designed for occasionally an engine may not build the required compression to start the bike.
Quote from: Scotty on October 24, 2019, 01:08:08 AM
From S&S and may be revelant
• Stock EFI engines require a minimum of 80 PSI cranking compression, checked with the throttle open, for the ECU to fire the spark plugs.
• S&S easy start cams were designed to work with specific compression ratio and displacement combinations. If an Easy Start cam set is used in an application other than what it was designed for occasionally an engine may not build the required compression to start the bike.
:up: :up:
I had a 2008 96" with 551 EZ start cams come in last year with intermittent starting issues and the cams were the culprit.
Try this; when hot, open the throttle while cranking, and see if that helps. It may just need a tweak to the IAC crank temp steps or IAC crank to run steps table.
IF you have acr's on the bike, check to make sure that they are turned off. The combination of acr's and ez start cams could be bleeding off too much compression for the engine to start when hot.
To PoorUB. I know on an injected bike, opening the fuel fill shouldn't do anything but I was grasping at straws.
So...just got back from the bike shop with a bit more info. Compression is fine. Running around 130 front and back. The tune I have is from Powervision based on the mods I have installed including the cams. I was going to get it fine tuned but been a bad summer with working a lot and bike down with a transmission problem (replaced tranny) Bike had this starting issue even before that but getting slowly worse.
They did say they looked at the IAC but that's beyond my skill level so didn't quite know just what they meant. Although they did say that was not the problem.
I did try opening the throttle while cranking to no avail.
Also as I mentioned. It makes no difference whether the bike is hot or cold. I can start from cold and then shut off right away, wait 10 second and it will not start.
Edit, also no acr's on the bike so not an issue.
Quote from: GsUltra on October 24, 2019, 09:49:15 AM
To PoorUB. I know on an injected bike, opening the fuel fill shouldn't do anything but I was grasping at straws.
So...just got back from the bike shop with a bit more info. Compression is fine. Running around 130 front and back. The tune I have is from Powervision based on the mods I have installed including the cams. I was going to get it fine tuned but been a bad summer with working a lot and bike down with a transmission problem (replaced tranny) Bike had this starting issue even before that but getting slowly worse.
They did say they looked at the IAC but that's beyond my skill level so didn't quite know just what they meant. Although they did say that was not the problem.
I did try opening the throttle while cranking to no avail.
Also as I mentioned. It makes no difference whether the bike is hot or cold. I can start from cold and then shut off right away, wait 10 second and it will not start.
Edit, also no acr's on the bike so not an issue.
IMO With no ACRs, if tested properly, 130# is low compression. When it cranks over on the 2nd attempt does it pause or bump somewhat noticeably as it hits each cylinder compression stroke?
If it's got compression & runs good when it does run & not temperature sensative. Check for spark, no spark then make sure u have B+ to center coil wire. If it does then diagnose no spark issue (IE crank sensor, coil).
If it has spark shoot carb cleaner or flammable brake cleaner in throttle body,if it runs then it's a fuel issue.
Fuel issue u said u checked pressure,how about injector pulse? Make sure u have B+ to injector,if u do plug in a noid light or test light in place of injector it should flash while cranking. If it doesn't flash then a crank sensor, injector driver in pcm took a dump.
If it's got all of this it has to run!
If it's that senssative, be careful during diagnostic's not to move anymore wiring or disturb bike anymore than absalutly nessassary.
Wire wiggle test once u get it running may help find the issue.
86
Couple things....
To reset the IAC "Turn the Ignition (with Switch in the ON position) on and off four times allowing exactly 10 seconds before turning off each time". --- Believe it or not, DT-II does NOT have an option for this currently. Their next up-date will have it with the VCM-3. This is the "Interim Process"
09-14's often have a CPK issue (known - there is a Dealer Communication). Ensure you have 2 VAC or more when it won't start - That will determine the health. Also, retrieve Codes and post - 0374 (or similar) will indicate the CPK.
GsUltra.....sent you a message.
I once went round and round with the support for my ThunderMax regarding the same issue. Once I got stranded and put a bag of ice on top of the fuel tank... bike restarted after 20 minutes. I started parking in the shade only (when summer in Florida) and that helped. I went to a bike week and they allowed me to trade in my ECM for a "new model" which solved the issue. I had an Andrews cam and a set of straight shots. Winter was much better on regular short local rides. As I recall I adjusted the IAC settings on the original ECM and that helped after arguing with the support individual on the phone for about a month. The suggestions that I got from this individual were from his robotic checklist and I had either already checked those issues or knew that they would have no effect. Good luck.
Hi
Thanks for all the help so far.
Compression, I didn't think 130 was really all that low. I'll look into that.
I remembered from 86wfxg suggestion about spraying a starter type fluid. I did just that before I took it into the bike shop. On the 3rd and 4th attempt to start it (again after starting perfectly just minutes before) I tried spraying some quick start to see if that would work. It did nothing
Answer to KD. Cranking over does not pause or bump. It spins over fine.
As the bike is in the shop. I'm going to print off these suggestions and go in with them to discuss this. They are waiting for a new ignition switch which is what they suspect but we will see.
I'll post again after talking all this over with the bike shop.
The reason for the compression bump is to cause the CPS to sense compression and cause the ecm to signal a spark. Low compression can reduce the " bump hesitation" and not fire the coil. Did you confirm spark on the second attempt that doesn't want to start the engine?
I seriously doubt your problem is the ignition switch, since the fuel pump runs and the engine turns over but won't start. I'm assuming the lights work normally.
I didn't suggest using starting fluid.
Fastest way to check spark (as long as stock unshielded plug wire's aren't used) is a automotive timing light. If the bike starts clip on the timing light,shut it off,try to start if light flashes u have spark.
Hope ur not on the hook for the ignition switch!
86
QuoteI have replaced the gas filter, air filter, plugs, cleaned the injectors, tried different fuel grades. I also replaced the battery as it was getting old. None of these things made the slightest difference. I gave up and took it into a shop. They checked for the pin hole in gas line issue and did fuel pressure test, spark etc. $$$ later they said it was ready after much head scratching. They determined it was the ignition assembly but guess what happened when I shut it off. It would not start again. I don't believe the bike shop is simply trying to line their pockets but I need some advice before I go broke chasing this down. Maybe I can help them come up with some things to try.
I certainly don't want to sound critical but none of the things you did would likely solve this type of problem and it doesn't sound to me like this shop has a very good troubleshooter. I also doubt a new ignition switch is going to help, and as far as the compression bump is concerned it is normally more pronounced when an engine is warm, so the fact that it is failing to restart warm does not sound like the compression issue to me if it starts OK cold. You really need to check for that spark. Yes a timing light will work fine, but you can buy cheap spark testers or even make one from an old plug, an alligator clip and a hose clamp (cut off the ground electrode). Just remember to keep a plug screwed into the engine when checking. As mentioned the CKP generates 2 or more volts AC (NOT DC) and if you have an analog meter with a low AC volt scale this is perfect. Digital meters work also but some cheap ones may not have a fast enough response time to make this test. Good luck but diagnose or have someone properly diagnose it. Don't just keep throwing parts at it.
Replace the crank sensor.
I'd check out the connection at the throttle body
I would try the crank position sensor, as well. My 2001 would run great 99% of the time, then just die going down the road. Let it sit a little, and it would start and run fine. Put in a new sensor-no more problems.
I agree with not Max :smiled:
I had an 07 Ultra that did the same thing. Ended up being a loose battery cable on the starter
Quote from: dmrdn on October 28, 2019, 09:09:39 PM
I had an 07 Ultra that did the same thing. Ended up being a loose battery cable on the starter
Did it turn over properly but not start?
I would look at crank sensor I removed one that there was only the a wire left and all plastic gone :emoGroan: anyway just switch with a buddy's and try
GsUltra any updates?