I've done a Grudge Box bearing, but this is my first time with the builders tranny kit. Baker gives you their inner primary bearing in the kit, of course their intent is that you use it. My bike is a 124" so a bit worried about using that single ball bearing. I also noticed that the mainshaft does not appear to have to step that the OEM cruise drive has, which prevents the mainshaft race from moving into the 5th gear seal.
Does S&S make a race that works with the Grudge Box so I can use a roller? I feel like if I use either the Baker or press on a stock race, I'll be going into that pulley area before I want to.
S&s makes a tapered race that works on the older style mainshaft that doesn't have the step in it. It prevents the race from walking in and works with the stock sized bearing .I'm using thst race with the all balls bearing...no issues after 12k or so. Like all of s and s stuff they're proud of that little chunk of steel to tune of about 50 bucks but it works .
Do we know the part # for the S&S race that works with the Grudge & the roller bearing setup??
~John
Quote from: jmorton10 on October 31, 2019, 01:35:19 AM
Do we know the part # for the S&S race that works with the Grudge & the roller bearing setup??
~John
I would really like that part # too, and that it's confirmed to work specifically with the Grudge Box.
Brian (Ohio HD) should be able to provide the definitive answer
Either the OEM 34091-85A race or the S&S 56-5089 race will work. Both are the same I.D. at 0.9835". The S&S race is longer due to their tapered end that locks against the mainshaft taper after the clutch hub splines. Same as the OEM five speed shaft fitment.
When using the OEM race you need (read should) to install the inner primary with the OEM inner primary bearing in place to determine if the OEM depth of the race on the mainshaft will still apply, or if it must be otherwise.
When using the S&S race it must be pressed on per their instructions, until the inner taper of the race meets the taper on the transmission mainshaft. Insure that the race is not in contact with the main drive gear.
Below are the I.D., O.D. and length measurements of the two inner primary bearing races. I strongly recommend not doing a bang it on and go, check the measurements to the inner primary bearing with the inner primary on the bike before pressing the race on. Get your depth correct to insure the bearing will be riding on the race correctly, and that the race is not into the main drive gear.
five speed inner primary bearing race info for grudge box six speed.jpg
Quote from: Ohio HD on November 03, 2019, 02:33:52 PMEither the OEM 34091-85A race or the S&S 56-5089 race will work. Both are the same I.D. at 0.9835". The S&S race is longer due to their tapered end that locks against the mainshaft taper after the clutch hub splines. Same as the OEM five speed shaft fitment.
When using the OEM race you need (read should) to install the inner primary with the OEM inner primary bearing in place to determine if the OEM depth of the race on the mainshaft will still apply, or if it must be otherwise.
When using the S&S race it must be pressed on per their instructions, until the inner taper of the race meets the taper on the transmission mainshaft. Insure that the race is not in contact with the main drive gear.
Below are the I.D., O.D. and length measurements of the two inner primary bearing races. I strongly recommend not doing a bang it on and go, check the measurements to the inner primary bearing with the inner primary on the bike before pressing the race on. Get your depth correct to insure the bearing will be riding on the race correctly, and that the race is not into the main drive gear.
five speed inner primary bearing race info for grudge box six speed.jpg
Thanks ohio Hd.for the info,i used the oem race on a baker dd7.but i didnt now for shure on the grudge. Box.
I'm confused here. If the Grudgebox has a straight shaft with no step for the race to butt up against & no taper to the shaft, what makes the S&S race work any better than the stock one??
~John
I don't and never will have one to measure BUT ....
(https://i.imgur.com/NsQSFfk.png)
That's interesting.
I'm currently installing a Grudgebox GB-STRIP03 in a 2016 and the supplied inner bearing fits directly on the shaft, no race needed.
Maybe yours is a different model??
Quote from: FSG on November 04, 2019, 04:21:47 PM
I don't and never will have one to measure BUT ....
(https://i.imgur.com/NsQSFfk.png)
Exactly, same as the OEM five speed design, and the DD7 shaft. Changes diameter after the splines.
Quote from: johncr on November 04, 2019, 04:44:28 PM
That's interesting.
I'm currently installing a Grudgebox GB-STRIP03 in a 2016 and the supplied inner bearing fits directly on the shaft, no race needed.
Maybe yours is a different model??
No, we don't want the single row bearing Baker provides. The OEM bearing and S&S race is a little better.
QuoteThe OEM bearing and S&S race is a little WAY MUCH better.
FIXED :SM:
Quote from: FSG on November 04, 2019, 05:32:11 PM
QuoteThe OEM bearing and S&S race is a little WAY MUCH better.
FIXED :SM:
You're right! :teeth:
Quote from: johncr on November 04, 2019, 04:44:28 PM
That's interesting.
I'm currently installing a Grudgebox GB-STRIP03 in a 2016 and the supplied inner bearing fits directly on the shaft, no race needed.
Maybe yours is a different model??
A little off topic here but that's the same type bearing supplied with my new DD7. Couple of comments...
When I pulled the DD7 recently for warranty repair I noticed the bearing was "notchy" and difficult to turn. I pulled it & once free it was smooth as silk. I decided to replace it anyway & bought a new one. Problem is the new one won't fit. The shaft on the DD7 is a few tenths oversize & the bearing ID had been ground to fit. In fact it was ground enough as to be a sloppy fit on the DD7 shaft... slides right on & will rock a bit.
Once installed back in the primary cover the bearing is notchy again like it's too tight of a press fit. The whole setup sux. I could have a bearing go out right in front of a bearing supply house & not be able to get a replacement. :down:
QuoteI could have a bearing go out right in front of a bearing supply house & not be able to get a replacement. :down:
exactly and it's been put forward for a few years now that the OEM bearing with the S&S race is a far better option
Quote from: jmorton10 on November 04, 2019, 03:06:19 PM
I'm confused here. If the Grudgebox has a straight shaft with no step for the race to butt up against & no taper to the shaft, what makes the S&S race work any better than the stock one??
~John
I'm still kinda confused here. I am replacing a DD7 with a Grudgebox as we speak. I knew all along I wasn't going to use the single row ball bearing that comes with the GB. What I am confused about is the S&S race. What keeps the S&S race from walking on a shaft with no taper & no step for the race to seat against.
My DD7 is a few years old & used the stock IP roller bearing. It came with a new race which I assumed at the time was made by Baker although I realize now it was probably just a new stock Harley race which always worked just fine. My bike is a 124 & I beat the cr@p out of it. I installed the race with red loctite & it had not moved at all. It was a
VERY TIGHT press fit when I installed it (tightest one I've ever seen) & actually broke the Jims installation tool before I had it pressed to the correct depth.
Now, using the stock roller bearings I have the choice of using the S&S 56-5089 or a stock 34091-85A Harley race. I will use the S&S part just because I have used S&S parts for years & they are always super quality but I still don't understand what keeps the S&S part locked in place as opposed to the stock race that can move in a high TQ application??
~John
LOL, you can take a car guy (Bert) out of the business, but you can't take the car business out of the guy>Harley Davidson too.
Quote from: FSG on November 04, 2019, 07:22:21 PM
QuoteI could have a bearing go out right in front of a bearing supply house & not be able to get a replacement. :down:
exactly and it's been put forward for a few years now that the OEM bearing with the S&S race is a far better option
Looking at the situation logically, it would make zero sense for Baker to turn the shafts a few tenths oversize then have the added expense of a custom ground bearing. More likely, the shaft was discovered oversize after it was too late to correct it, and the bearing is a loose fitting Band-Aid.
I see that Baker now has a new online rep on HDF to replace Mark, would be nice to see him here also.
Quote from: jmorton10 on November 05, 2019, 05:22:21 AM
Quote from: jmorton10 on November 04, 2019, 03:06:19 PM
I'm confused here. If the Grudgebox has a straight shaft with no step for the race to butt up against & no taper to the shaft, what makes the S&S race work any better than the stock one??
~John
I'm still kinda confused here. I am replacing a DD7 with a Grudgebox as we speak. I knew all along I wasn't going to use the single row ball bearing that comes with the GB. What I am confused about is the S&S race. What keeps the S&S race from walking on a shaft with no taper & no step for the race to seat against.
My DD7 is a few years old & used the stock IP roller bearing. It came with a new race which I assumed at the time was made by Baker although I realize now it was probably just a new stock Harley race which always worked just fine. My bike is a 124 & I beat the cr@p out of it. I installed the race with red loctite & it had not moved at all. It was a VERY TIGHT press fit when I installed it (tightest one I've ever seen) & actually broke the Jims installation tool before I had it pressed to the correct depth.
Now, using the stock roller bearings I have the choice of using the S&S 56-5089 or a stock 34091-85A Harley race. I will use the S&S part just because I have used S&S parts for years & they are always super quality but I still don't understand what keeps the S&S part locked in place as opposed to the stock race that can move in a high TQ application??
~John
The OEM cruise drive mainshaft has a step up on the INSIDE of the OEM race when it's pressed on. You can feel it with your fingernail. So, this stops the OEM race. The S&S race is stopped on the outside (back end side) of the race when the shaft steps up from the splines to the smooth part of the mainshaft.
The Grudge Box mainshaft does not have the little step up in the INSIDE of the race. It's smooth like the 5 speeds.
Yes, I don't want to use the weaking single ball bearing that's provided with the kit. I'm quite familiar with those bearings.
(https://i.imgur.com/HCTxMSQ.png)
the Eureka moment is when you have one in your hand :SM:
(https://i.imgur.com/hlFPAy2.png)
now you go pushing that race on tooooooooo faaarrrrrrrr it's going to BREAK as some in the past have found out
(https://i.imgur.com/EmBOjnm.png)
Push the race on a little too far, and they will crack.
The ball bearing is nothing more than a 6205 bearing with the I.D. honed. I made a jig to hold them when I was using a hone on them. Then, as others have found out, when pressing them in the inner primary they will bind. Stock set up is 100 % better.
John
Thank you, OhioHD. I ordered the S&S race. I'll make sure to measure and examine like you say.
I finally get what has been explained here, thanks for all the info guys.
I have the S&S race on the way to go with my new Grudgebox when it gets here.
~John
OhioHD, you've been very assertive in terms of advising about measuring, and not just trusting that the S&S race automatically gets positioned correctly (30-35 ft/lbs of torque) on the Grudge Box mainshaft.
There must be a deeper story behind this. In other words, a not so pleasant surprise. Care to elaborate more about that?
No, not any stories to tell. The five speed shaft and the baker shaft are virtually the same from the clutch back to the main drive gear. When using the OEM race there is no stop for the race, so you need to know where it goes. The end of the main drive gear may or may not be in the same place on the two shafts, I don't have a complete five speed here, only some parts from one. So the OEM measurement of the race 0.100" from the main drive gear may not be correct. So I caution, be careful and measure. The S&S race should be a no brainier, and is longer, but I've seen people screw up a lead ball because they're not careful.
Anything I do that's not an OEM replacement service, I check and double check. It's why my stuff doesn't go poof when I ride them.
Another thing to watch for. If using the S&S race and Bandit clutch, the hub on the Bandit has a longer snout out the back and will hit the race before it goes on all the way.
I've experienced this on a 2006 model.
Quote from: johncr on November 07, 2019, 05:41:03 PM
Another thing to watch for. If using the S&S race and Bandit clutch
That's exactly what I am using, what did you do to solve that problem??
~John
I ended up using the HD race with sleeve lock locktite.
However, I heard Bandit could mill it off prior to shipment or a competent machine shop could do the same.
QuoteAnything I do that's not an OEM replacement service, I check and double check. It's why my stuff doesn't go poof when I ride them.
:up: Bob
Quote from: johncr on November 07, 2019, 05:41:03 PM
Another thing to watch for. If using the S&S race and Bandit clutch, the hub on the Bandit has a longer snout out the back and will hit the race before it goes on all the way.
I've experienced this on a 2006 model.
I remember when that all came to light, another was also affected, IMO it's not a big deal to measure it up and take some off the snout, which is what I'd do if needed
Around that time did a John Sach special and tigged an OEM race to the mainshaft
(https://i.imgur.com/RcS7rn9.png)
Around that time did a John Sach special and tigged an OEM race to the mainshaft
LOL don't think I'll go that route although that would certainly cure the problem of the race walking.
I used to have an old Bridgeport that was a gift to me from a speed shop owner that was going out of business (I was his Snap-On tool dealer at the time). I don't have it anymore, it took up too much room in my garage & I hardly ever used it.
I wish I had it back now for situations like this. I used to have an awesome speed/machine shop right near my house that was owned by another friend who would knock out small stuff like this for me for free, but that guy died & the shop closed.
I used red loctite & the stock race the last time I had it apart & it had not moved at all when I took it apart. Since there are no machine shops in my area that I trust any more I'm not sure what I'll do at this point.
~John
In 2017 when I installed my SE OD 6 speed I removed the oem race and used a S&S tapered race (main shaft same dimensions as the oem 5 speed). I installed per S&S' instructions. I was a little concerned as the race is longer and protruded from the IPB toward the clutch hub more than the shorter oem race. Was also concerned that the S&S doesn't install as close to the main drive gear as the oem 0.100 the manual calls for. So I put a smear of grease on the race, installed the inner primary with seal then removed and witnessed the grease mark. Also installed the clutch while the transmission was out (easier to see) to insure the hub didn't contact the race. All was good all the way around. I have since installed a new S&S race after replacing a loose pulley nut and quad seal.
I've seen specifications for the race anywhere from .100" - .200", and have done them in that range. One thing I found when doing an OEM race on the old 5-speed bikes is that the metal battery hold down clamp can be used as a handy tool to measure the maindrive gear/race gap of just a tad over .100". You hold the flat part with your hand and stick the curved end to get in there to measure and verify the gap. Back when doing 5-speeds I considered it just another "specialty" tool, that I also just happen to use to hold my battery from flopping around. lol
Quote from: les on November 08, 2019, 12:23:07 PM
I've seen specifications for the race anywhere from .100" - .200", and have done them in that range. One thing I found when doing an OEM race on the old 5-speed bikes is that the metal battery hold down clamp can be used as a handy tool to measure the maindrive gear/race gap of just a tad over .100". You hold the flat part with your hand and stick the curved end to get in there to measure and verify the gap. Back when doing 5-speeds I considered it just another "specialty" tool, that I also just happen to use to hold my battery from flopping around. lol
Yup, saw that here years ago (may have been a post from you). :up:
Good or bad idea - pull the HD Race (with the proper tools) and re-use it?
Quote from: johncr on November 09, 2019, 06:10:31 PM
Good or bad idea - pull the HD Race (with the proper tools) and re-use it?
OEM six speed race doesn't fit a Baker transmission. Nor would I reuse one.
2006/five speed 2007 six speed are the same diameter. no reuse it. bad idea.
Quote
Around that time did a John Sach special and tigged an OEM race to the mainshaft
LOL don't think I'll go that route although that would certainly cure the problem of the race walking.
:SM: :up: the tig spot wasn't much more than
a spec of fly chit , doesn't need much to stop it walking
Quote from: FSG on November 09, 2019, 06:27:24 PM
Quote
Around that time did a John Sach special and tigged an OEM race to the mainshaft
LOL don't think I'll go that route although that would certainly cure the problem of the race walking.
:SM: :up: the tig spot wasn't much more than a spec of fly chit , doesn't need much to stop it walking
2 small tacs, 180 degrees apart. Linde (tig) MG 600 rod for dissimilar metals.
John
OhioHD, the S&S race installed perfectly on the GB mainshaft. Again, thanks so much for the information. Mine came out under .100" gap from the maindrive gear. Guessing about 80% of that, but don't matter because a does not touch, is a does not touch, and it ain't moving in.
One thing I noticed about the clutch hub nut, is that when I torque it down to 80 lbs., it's not flush with the end of the mainshaft. I guess that's just how the GB mainshaft comes out to be.
Thank you, sir!
:up:
I'll be putting that same combo together (S&S race & Grudgebox), but I'm not going to work on the bike until after Christmas. The weather here SUCKS & I'm sick of working on the thing for now LOL.
~John
I've been following this thread and want to buy the 56-5084 bearing race for my GrudgeBox. I didn't know I could use the S&S 56-5089 race and the OEM roller. I have a new roller but can't find the 56-5089 on the S&S site. It keeps kicking out the 06 up race no matter what I do. :banghead: I do not have my 2011 RGU in the "shop by bike" application. Anyone else have this issue? I would like to get one ordered. Maybe I should call them. :nix:
Ohio gave me a push in a great direction but I still wanna know why I can't get the S&S site to find it when I search with the part number?
It's listed in the S&S 2019 price book. But I imagine they don't sell many now days, so don't bother with putting it on the web site. Probably soon to be obsolete.