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M8 trans fluid leaking in primary

Started by grnrock, February 17, 2017, 02:31:46 PM

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0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

kd

Have you thought about cutting a reverse spiral into the inner bushing surface to cause increased flow away from the primary?
KD

harley_cruiser

Quote from: kd on March 08, 2018, 10:49:27 AM
Have you thought about cutting a reverse spiral into the inner bushing surface to cause increased flow away from the primary?
KD, it does not need it, here is a drawing of how the centrifugal force pushes the fluid.



The arrows represent how the fluid moves. The fluids are pushed to the widest part of the tube.
I made this to test how the fluid acts inside the rotating shaft, its made out of half inch pvc and has a half inch cpvc bushing inside. It spins at 2000 rpm and sits at about 25-30 degrees to make sure the theory works.



I'm trying out different shape bushing inside the tube, they are about an inch long and about a half inch from the end.
I'm using water as a test fluid, pouring it into the top opening, the water will flow right through when the motor is turned off, as soon as you turn it on the water is flung out the top end and will not go past the bushing insert.


1FSTRK

Lay it down level and put one end in a reservoir and fill it with oil above the the opening in the shaft then turn it on. If it will spin with the one end covered with oil and nothing comes out the other end you will have something, that is what is happening in the transmission.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

harley_cruiser

Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 08, 2018, 01:56:46 PM
Lay it down level and put one end in a reservoir and fill it with oil above the the opening in the shaft then turn it on. If it will spin with the one end covered with oil and nothing comes out the other end you will have something, that is what is happening in the transmission.
The shaft is way above the oil line.

rigidthumper

Not at 5K RPM- the turbulence from the gear set spinning inside the (now narrower than 16 and older) case causes the fluid level to be displaced- and now it's above the mainshaft center.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

1FSTRK

Quote from: rigidthumper on March 08, 2018, 03:42:00 PM
Not at 5K RPM- the turbulence from the gear set spinning inside the (now narrower than 16 and older) case causes the fluid level to be displaced- and now it's above the mainshaft center.

Exactly all the seal and drain back testing has been because fluid is being packed in the cavity at the end of the shaft and the running level of the fluid is above the through hole in the shaft in that compartment.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

rbabos

Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 08, 2018, 03:52:32 PM
Quote from: rigidthumper on March 08, 2018, 03:42:00 PM
Not at 5K RPM- the turbulence from the gear set spinning inside the (now narrower than 16 and older) case causes the fluid level to be displaced- and now it's above the mainshaft center.

Exactly all the seal and drain back testing has been because fluid is being packed in the cavity at the end of the shaft and the running level of the fluid is above the through hole in the shaft in that compartment.
I don't think anyone has made a clear cover to actually prove that, and it's possible but
as long as the total outflow force from the taper counters the slight head of the oil being higher trying to get in , it will act like a dam. That's all that's needed.
Ron

rigidthumper

A cover has been made, and transfer has occurred.
Ignorance is bliss, and accuracy expensive. How much of either can you afford?

harley_cruiser

Quote from: rigidthumper on March 08, 2018, 05:41:41 PM
A cover has been made, and transfer has occurred.
I would be interest in seeing/reading that.

Karl H.

Steve Cole tested that as reported in another forum.

Karl
Dyna Wide Glide '03, Softail Deluxe '13, Street Glide '14, Sportster 883R '15

Moparnut72

I think if the fluid level stays below the shaft a slinger would take care of most of the problem. In conjunction with the bushing should cure the problem. If the fluid level gets up to the shaft, not splash but actual level, all bets are off. JMO
kk
If you find yourself in a fair fight,
You didn't prepare properly.

rbabos

Quote from: rigidthumper on March 08, 2018, 05:41:41 PM
A cover has been made, and transfer has occurred.
Yet the endless pissing around after seeing the cause and effect, when any sane person would groove the pushrod for appropriate  O ring and add a separate primary vent line t'd into the trans line. Both simple as dirt conversions.  A year from now the same old complaints will be happening by avoiding the obvious sure fire fix, the way I see it.  Pushrod only moves about .070 so the O ring will last almost forever. It will allow for pushrod alignment with that non concentric bore to the slave and best of all seal off the oil transfer. It took HD 7 years to solve the compensater oiling issues, with help I might add, so I don't see them coming up with a fix any time soon. At least not until some crafty SOB DIYR makes them look like fools. Then you will buy it at the dealer or they will sneak it into production and probably boast about the new improved.
Ron

harley_cruiser

Quote from: Karl H. on March 08, 2018, 10:27:38 PM
Steve Cole tested that as reported in another forum.

Karl
Does anyone have a link to that or know the name of the thread and where to look for it so I don't have to look through a thousand "if I knew this I would not have bought a new" in that other forum.
I would like to see shat Steve says about this, personally I don't see it.

kd

Try searching " the fix is in" in HD Forums. It's a fairly lengthy discussion. Steve, Max and others are cooking in the same kitchen. I think it's in the M8 section but not sure.
KD

1FSTRK

March 09, 2018, 02:01:25 PM #889 Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 02:09:29 PM by 1FSTRK
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 09, 2018, 12:16:22 PM
Quote from: Karl H. on March 08, 2018, 10:27:38 PM
Steve Cole tested that as reported in another forum.

Karl
Does anyone have a link to that or know the name of the thread and where to look for it so I don't have to look through a thousand "if I knew this I would not have bought a new" in that other forum.
I would like to see shat Steve says about this, personally I don't see it.


There is a link right here in an earlier post.

Added
I think is the post

Quote from: kd on January 24, 2018, 06:50:54 PM
Just noticed this is fairly fresh on HD Forums

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

harley_cruiser

Quote from: kd on March 09, 2018, 12:54:35 PM
Try searching " the fix is in" in HD Forums. It's a fairly lengthy discussion. Steve, Max and others are cooking in the same kitchen. I think it's in the M8 section but not sure.

I've read that a couple of time, will read it again.

harley_cruiser

Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2018, 02:01:25 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 09, 2018, 12:16:22 PM
Quote from: Karl H. on March 08, 2018, 10:27:38 PM
Steve Cole tested that as reported in another forum.

Karl
Does anyone have a link to that or know the name of the thread and where to look for it so I don't have to look through a thousand "if I knew this I would not have bought a new" in that other forum.
I would like to see shat Steve says about this, personally I don't see it.


There is a link right here in an earlier post.

Added
I think is the post

Quote from: kd on January 24, 2018, 06:50:54 PM
Just noticed this is fairly fresh on HD Forums

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html

I will read that also.
The oil line is an inch below the input shaft, yes I can see a lot of turbulence in the oil, I can see a wave or wake in the oil, I can not see the oil coming up and inch.
The input shaft runs at 3000 rpm at 5000 motor, that is going to fling oil every place, and dissipate as much oil as the cavitation of the gears adds on the oil level.
I did read in the "fix is in thread" that the oil gets trapped behind the actuator, this is where the shaft comes in and where the tunnel ends up, there is no seal there, if this is the case then that needs to be addressed. A simple drain hole below the shaft would do it in the inner side cover.

Karl H.

In one of the following threads a transparent cover was mentioned with which the flooding of the cavity was clearly prooven by Steve (no pics were added):

"who's been having to add Transmission fluid?"
"the fix is in"
"trans, there is a fix!"
"Transmission fluid transfer service Bulletin"
"tranny-to-primary fluid issue"

Unfortunately I cann't find the post without reading numerous pages again.  :embarrassed:

Karl
Dyna Wide Glide '03, Softail Deluxe '13, Street Glide '14, Sportster 883R '15

1FSTRK

Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 09, 2018, 02:32:55 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2018, 02:01:25 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 09, 2018, 12:16:22 PM
Quote from: Karl H. on March 08, 2018, 10:27:38 PM
Steve Cole tested that as reported in another forum.

Karl
Does anyone have a link to that or know the name of the thread and where to look for it so I don't have to look through a thousand "if I knew this I would not have bought a new" in that other forum.
I would like to see shat Steve says about this, personally I don't see it.


There is a link right here in an earlier post.

Added
I think is the post

Quote from: kd on January 24, 2018, 06:50:54 PM
Just noticed this is fairly fresh on HD Forums

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html

I will read that also.
The oil line is an inch below the input shaft, yes I can see a lot of turbulence in the oil, I can see a wave or wake in the oil, I can not see the oil coming up and inch.
The input shaft runs at 3000 rpm at 5000 motor, that is going to fling oil every place, and dissipate as much oil as the cavitation of the gears adds on the oil level.
I did read in the "fix is in thread" that the oil gets trapped behind the actuator, this is where the shaft comes in and where the tunnel ends up, there is no seal there, if this is the case then that needs to be addressed. A simple drain hole below the shaft would do it in the inner side cover.

You joined us here a little late, start reading here, the next few pages have some pictures.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1192054#msg1192054
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

harley_cruiser

Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2018, 03:06:21 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 09, 2018, 02:32:55 PM
Quote from: 1FSTRK on March 09, 2018, 02:01:25 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 09, 2018, 12:16:22 PM
Quote from: Karl H. on March 08, 2018, 10:27:38 PM
Steve Cole tested that as reported in another forum.

Karl
Does anyone have a link to that or know the name of the thread and where to look for it so I don't have to look through a thousand "if I knew this I would not have bought a new" in that other forum.
I would like to see shat Steve says about this, personally I don't see it.


There is a link right here in an earlier post.

Added
I think is the post

Quote from: kd on January 24, 2018, 06:50:54 PM
Just noticed this is fairly fresh on HD Forums

https://www.hdforums.com/forum/milwaukee-eight-m8/1175678-who-s-been-having-to-add-transmission-fluid-260.html

I will read that also.
The oil line is an inch below the input shaft, yes I can see a lot of turbulence in the oil, I can see a wave or wake in the oil, I can not see the oil coming up and inch.
The input shaft runs at 3000 rpm at 5000 motor, that is going to fling oil every place, and dissipate as much oil as the cavitation of the gears adds on the oil level.
I did read in the "fix is in thread" that the oil gets trapped behind the actuator, this is where the shaft comes in and where the tunnel ends up, there is no seal there, if this is the case then that needs to be addressed. A simple drain hole below the shaft would do it in the inner side cover.

You joined us here a little late, start reading here, the next few pages have some pictures.
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php?topic=96613.msg1192054#msg1192054
I have read that, been a while, has anyone actually tried it? That would drain most of the fluid away from the end of the shaft, I would have to think that part of the push rod is exposed between the inner cover and the shaft.

1FSTRK

March 09, 2018, 03:44:23 PM #895 Last Edit: March 09, 2018, 03:53:39 PM by 1FSTRK
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 09, 2018, 03:33:46 PM
I have read that, been a while, has anyone actually tried it? That would drain most of the fluid away from the end of the shaft, I would have to think that part of the push rod is exposed between the inner cover and the shaft.

The end of the shaft actually extends into the hole in the inner side cover.
There has been some testing of return passages but the problem with a simple hole is that the oil is being piled up in that area on both sides of the inner cover so the the oil and pressure seems to be equal and this means the hole does not allow the oil to drain. It is possible that in certain conditions it allows more oil into the cavity where the end of the shaft is.
"Never hang on to a mistake just because you spent time or money making it."

PoorUB

Quote from: rbabos on March 09, 2018, 09:54:54 AMThen you will buy it at the dealer or they will sneak it into production and probably boast about the new improved.
Ron

Pretty much what I said a long while back. HD will make a running change, call it an improvement of some sort, and sweep the while deal under the rug. Just like they have done before.
I am an adult?? When did that happen, and how do I make it stop?!

Admiral Akbar

Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 08, 2018, 12:17:42 PM
Quote from: kd on March 08, 2018, 10:49:27 AM
Have you thought about cutting a reverse spiral into the inner bushing surface to cause increased flow away from the primary?
KD, it does not need it, here is a drawing of how the centrifugal force pushes the fluid.



The arrows represent how the fluid moves. The fluids are pushed to the widest part of the tube.
I made this to test how the fluid acts inside the rotating shaft, its made out of half inch pvc and has a half inch cpvc bushing inside. It spins at 2000 rpm and sits at about 25-30 degrees to make sure the theory works.



I'm trying out different shape bushing inside the tube, they are about an inch long and about a half inch from the end.
I'm using water as a test fluid, pouring it into the top opening, the water will flow right through when the motor is turned off, as soon as you turn it on the water is flung out the top end and will not go past the bushing insert.

Very good idea.. Don't let 1slork piss in your Wheaties..

kd

Man, I must be gettin old. I forgot I posted that link.

I stepped away for supper and didn't post this before the last 3 responses. I'll post anyway.

My understanding is that the Admiral did some machining and was dropping it off with Steve. One of the other members was putting his bike up for a test mule and that should be happening on Steve's dyno about now.

I see Admiral Akbar (Max) is dropping in but he may be sworn to secrecy and not able to confirm how things are going on that front.
KD

harley_cruiser

Quote from: Admiral Akbar on March 09, 2018, 04:24:36 PM
Quote from: Harley_Cruiser Rocker Lockers on March 08, 2018, 12:17:42 PM
Quote from: kd on March 08, 2018, 10:49:27 AM
Have you thought about cutting a reverse spiral into the inner bushing surface to cause increased flow away from the primary?
KD, it does not need it, here is a drawing of how the centrifugal force pushes the fluid.



The arrows represent how the fluid moves. The fluids are pushed to the widest part of the tube.
I made this to test how the fluid acts inside the rotating shaft, its made out of half inch pvc and has a half inch cpvc bushing inside. It spins at 2000 rpm and sits at about 25-30 degrees to make sure the theory works.



I'm trying out different shape bushing inside the tube, they are about an inch long and about a half inch from the end.
I'm using water as a test fluid, pouring it into the top opening, the water will flow right through when the motor is turned off, as soon as you turn it on the water is flung out the top end and will not go past the bushing insert.

Very good idea.. Don't let 1slork piss in your Wheaties..
:up:
I have most of my tooling done, I am waiting for some supplies. Who know if it will work or not, there is a lot going on inside of that transmission.
I like the idea of the seal on the main shaft that you guys are doing. I'm looking for something a little more simple.
We are kicking around a few other ideas also.