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Shovelhead CV Jetting

Started by JW113, February 13, 2016, 07:08:26 PM

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JW113

OK, so I'm trying to dial in a Keihin CV-40 that I have on my FLH. Just to throw this out there, those of you that are running the CV, what are you using for a main jet?

Now down to the story...

Bike runs great, and I mean really great. As long as I don't give it more than 1/2 throttle! More than that, it makes noise and either holds it's own or loses power if you whack it wide open. Yes, classic way too rich jetting. I get that. I've been using CV carbs for years and years on a bunch of bikes. Always had the main jet in the neighborhood of 185-200. And always works great. I was using a 180 in this FLH, and was having said problems, nothing past 1/2 or even less throttle. Today I put a 165 in and took it for a spin. NO difference.  :wtf:

They don't make much smaller jets than a 160, which I have, but something tells me that ain't the problem. The needle is a N72R. Should be fine for this application. It has lots of torque and will run 80+ on the freeway, but just don't whack the throttle open or it will complain and likely slow down. The pipes have fairly black soot, so yes indicates too rich. The plugs look fine, which is odd. I made sure the diaphram is good. Also checked the float level, it's dead center .445".

I have a S&S E that I'm considering throwing on just to see what difference it makes, even though I'm not a big fan of S&S carbs. Anyway, running out of ideas. Curious to hear what you guys with CVs have to say.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

fourthgear

  Check the CV Performance web sight, they have some tuning tips there , might find some helpful info .
http://cv-performance.com/harley-cv-carburetor-tuning-issues
 
Any possibility the float is sticking ? Staving the motor with low bowl level . I think I have a 190 & a 200 , both are in Panheads though .

76shuvlinoff

February 14, 2016, 03:42:22 AM #2 Last Edit: February 14, 2016, 04:37:55 AM by 76shuvlinoff
I am no tuner. When I ran a 40mm the main was 190ish but it was on a 93" mill.   It ran "good enough" with great manners, didn't quite have the top end my E had (See -I am no tuner- section again) the trade off was worth it.  My Es were older, did not have the adjustable air bleed. I always ended up with them running a bit rich.

Mark

edit: I had a CV tuning document here somewhere. You know how it is, you will forget so you save something to a computer because paper is old fashioned.  Then you still can't friggin find it.  :hyst:

edit II: here's a good cv on a shovel thread
http://harleytechtalk.com/htt/index.php/topic,27610.msg280576.html#msg280576

Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

Trouble

Check that needle jet is not upsidedown, as your symptoms may indicate this.
I've a CV40 on the '04 Road King, which has a 195 or 200 main jet and it runs beautifully.
S&S Super E on the shovel now, works very well with adjustable air bleed and Thunderjet
You can try and make something idiot-proof, but those idiots are so darn clever

Ajayrk

Quote from: Trouble on February 14, 2016, 04:57:33 AM
Check that needle jet is not upsidedown, as your symptoms may indicate this.
I've a CV40 on the '04 Road King, which has a 195 or 200 main jet and it runs beautifully.
S&S Super E on the shovel now, works very well with adjustable air bleed and Thunderjet

:agree:  It could also be missing.  What is the pilot jet size and how is the accelerator pump diaphragm.
AJ

Racepres

One more less obvious, thing. Ensure that the Enricher is truly turning off, it needs to seat securely and leak free on the seat to ensure it is not Enriching itself..Hard think to track down , or tune out if it don't seat properly.

JW113

Trouble: "Check that needle jet is not upsidedown"

Doesn't appear to be. IIRC, if you install upside down, the wrong end won't go through the hole in the bottom of the bore.
[attach=0]

AJ: "What is the pilot jet size and how is the accelerator pump diaphragm."

45 pilot jet, and the accel pump squirts when you open the throttle.

Racepres: "Ensure that the Enricher is truly turning off"

The knob seats fully in the closed position, and that right angle bend and nut are tight against the carb body. Other than the obvious from looking at it from the outside, not sure how else it is seated. That said, the bike will not start cold without the enrichener pulled, and after it starts I can vary the RPM or stall the motor by pushing the knob in. So it appears to be doing it's job.

Also note, it runs fine at any throttle position other than 1/2 open or more. Idle is perfect, and low speed part throttle is great. Which means that the idle/pilot circuits are working correctly, and not getting excess fuel if there was a leak from the accel pump or enrichener, or too high float level. Right? It just seems to me like classic too big main jet. Although since the problem shows at 1/2 throttle, the needle/jet are involved as well (which is fed by the main).

Time to pull it apart again and have a close look, and maybe try the S&S E lying in the corner of the garage...

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Trouble

Well, check that diaphragm again
You can try and make something idiot-proof, but those idiots are so darn clever

76shuvlinoff

JW, I assume you have already checked for intake leaks etc.
Hard to tell from the seat but are you pumping black smoke?
Has anyone else possibly molested this carb by drilling out the slide or modifying or "upgrading" the spring to reduce the reaction time?

Mark

Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

kink04fxd

My 82 FLH 80" CV has a 190, 45 and the sportster needle. Runs great, 40+ MPG. Stock H cam.
2000 FLHTCI (now carb)<br />1982 FLH

JW113

Will check the diaphram.

Mark, this one came off my '04 Road King almost the day I rode it home (and put on a CV44). Bob C used it for a while on his road glide. Ah-Ha!! That's it. BOOOOOOOOOOOOB!!!!

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Ajayrk

Quote from: kink04fxd on February 14, 2016, 01:55:48 PM
My 82 FLH 80" CV has a 190, 45 and the sportster needle. Runs great, 40+ MPG. Stock H cam.

Very similar to my 1982 FXE, but had to go to a 48 pilot to improve starting.  V-Thunder SHV 4000, KB 9.5:1, Chrane HI-4E.

2000 Road King + 95" M/M with Harley's VFI copy + closed loop.
AJ

rageglide

Quote from: JW113 on February 14, 2016, 02:08:47 PM
Will check the diaphram.

Mark, this one came off my '04 Road King almost the day I rode it home (and put on a CV44). Bob C used it for a while on his road glide. Ah-Ha!! That's it. BOOOOOOOOOOOOB!!!!

-JW

yep I done wore it out.   lol  It ran great on my 95" hot rod...

I think you've got a timing deficit. (or maybe too much too soon?)   When I rode it it felt like it wanted to be shifted like a diesel.  lol I was in 3rd at 30 mph.  Nothing happens above 3k it just shakes like a dog sh*ttin razor blades and nothing happens.   :idunno:

JW113

Agree. Could be. Took the carb apart, nothing found. Jetted down to a 160 main, no help. It just does not want to rev beyond 3500-ish. And now coughs a lot with the small main jet. For the life of me, this has been the hardest bike to time that I've ever encountered. Cannot believe the timing light. Gonna bump up the timing until it compains, see what happens.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

dirtymike

Had the same problem last spring after I rebuilt a CV40 to put on my 74". Hope you got a solid press on flange. Mine was out on time. Had to sneak up on the throttle to get going. I chased my tail until i used a timing light. Kept cutting grove in timing plate until i realized I was going the wrong way. I have OEM flywheels with the timing marks. Dirty

rageglide

Fiddle with the static timing, but also diddle with the advance curve in that S&S ignition module...   Maybe slow the curve and advance the static a bit.

Oh... Did you use a VOES?  Cuz if you didn't you should be under advanced.  If you have a switch that says VoES yes/no, guessing No means full advance?   I dunno... just thinkin outloud.

fourthgear

  Throw the S&S on , just to see if its the Carb. causing it.

JW113

OK, so with the 45 pilot, 160 main, and N86 needle the thing was more than obviously too lean. Coughing out the carb and took forever to warm up, and with wide open throttle would "slow down" until I backed it off a 1/4 turn.

I put it back to the set up I had originally, 48 pilot, 180 main, N72A needle, but also bumped the timing up quite a bit. It did help, quite a bit in fact. Will take throttle now, but still runs out of  :turd: at WFO. And has now developed some other symptoms, like give it throttle and Waaaaaaaaaaaaabupbupbupbup when it winds up. No way I'm into the rev limiter.

Bob, I have the VOES wire grounded, so should be locked into full advance. This S&S Hi4N does not have a selection for no VOES, they say ground it if not installed.

I'd say I have the ignition module about 3/4 of it's full travel to the advance. Was about 1/2 or midrange before. This is killing me, never has so much difficulty timing a motorcycle in my life. Using the timing light, it said midpoint was on the timing mark, but that just can't be right. It ran like crap at that setting.

Also, I noticed that after I advanced it, it ran cooler. Heads measured around 300 or so before, tonight after rejet and timing advance they're around 240. So that points to retarded timing.

Will call my pal Roger tomorrow and get an appointment on the dyno. Need to make some forward progress on this.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

76shuvlinoff

Do you have anything else you can put on for an ignition?

Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

JW113

As in points? Sure do. But I had no luck trying to time it with those either.

Ya know, I have this nagging thought in the back of my head that after riding a 130hp twinkie and then getting on this stock 74 cube shovelhead, that's all there is!
:nix:

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

catmcaw

 Yeah, 1/2 throttle on 130HP might feel a little different than 1/2 throttle on the Ol Shovel.

76shuvlinoff

Valid point but it should still run smooth to the top, wherever that is. WFO should not sputter, gag, or fart. 
It's been a lot of years since the factory 74"er was in my frame and maybe I remember it better than it was but as I recall I could tease triple digits. It took a while and "Potty mouth" fell off but that's my story.  :hyst:
Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

JW113

And that is where I think I need to adjust my calibration here. This one will do 80 no problem, and although I've not actually had it up to 100 I'm sure it would answer the call. But like you said, it just won't be in any hurry to do so.

Am now leaning more toward "that's all there is". It pulls fine until too much throttle, and then there just isn't any more. Perhaps around the 1/2 throttle mark the carb's passing all the air that the motor can pull in? Frankly, I'm OK with that. Did not build it to be a hot rod, just a nice old ride-it-anywhere scoot.

At any rate, have a dyno day scheduled when I get back from Seattle after next week so will get it dialed in and after that point, it is what it is.
:beer:

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Snuffâ„¢

JW,
What air filter setup are you running?
Have you tried running w/o filter to see if it loads up?
Every day, I'm one day closer...  WTF!  I'm not near 70 yrs. old!

Old Crow

That just doesn't seem right.  Ok, I know my Shovel's a stroker, but she does 80 with ease.  Anyway, at any speed below top end, I can gear down and wack the throttle and the bike will jump. 
Maybe too much restriction in the pipes?  Didn't you say somewhere back in this thread you've got an S&S sitting on the shelf?  I think I'd stick it on there and give it a shot, just for the knowing.
This ain't Dodge City, and you ain't Bill Hickock.

JW113

Snuffy, am using one of those old aluminum tear drop "S&S Cycle" covers, on a home made flat aluminum base. Using a paper element from NAPA. I had it on my Evo for years, seemed to work great.

Wally, the exhaust should be pretty free flowing, Cycle Shacks with the baffles removed! Yeah I have an S&S E, might try that but would need to round up a different throttle cable and make a bracket for the air cleaner. Not a lot of work, but more than droping it off with Roger and his dyno and saying "here ya go, call me when it's done".
:SM:

I don't think the jetting I have in it now is unreasonable, so doubt that is the issue. Probably more related to timing, and for what ever reason, I can't seem to see the damn timing mark with a strobe light. Or rather I see it, but I don't trust what I'm seeing as it is clearly not correct. Will let somebody else give it go.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

76shuvlinoff

Far fetched but does your electronic ignition have a "cup" and is it in any way possible to install it wrong?

Mark
Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

rageglide

 :hyst:   The timing cup...   The infamous timing cup...

JW, the cable you are using for the CV should work with the S&S E.    Have you validated that the slide is lifting?  (maybe I wore out the diaphram too)

If you put the E on there, beware of the cover clearance with the 5 gallon tanks.

76shuvlinoff

Yeah, timing cup. The only reason I bring it up is it sounds like JW can't find or doesn't agree with his timing marks.
I've heard of them cut and/or keyed wrong.

[attach=0]  
Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

rageglide

Yeah wasn't poo pooin ya Mark.   :SM:

JW was fighting the timing cup for a couple months trying to get the ignition working, it'd only fire on one cylinder with the cup he got from V-Twin, finally found an oem cup at a dealer and voila it fixed that problem.   

So, is there a different cup for an evo vs a shovel?   

JW113

The problem with the throttle cable is CV is on front side, S&S is on back side. The cable I have is barely long enough for the CV, won't reach far enough for the S&S. For the air cleaner, the base plate has the carb opening shifted up, so the a/c sits lower. The one on my CV is dead center, hence I had to "trim" it to keep it out of the tank.

As Bob said, I went through THREE Hi4N modules before I finally figured out that POS V-Taiwin cup was garbage and got an OEM. For the Hi4N, the cups are all the same (Evo style).

The slide is lifting, checked it with the a/c cover off.

So here is a question to ponder: What happens when you put two Holley 850cfm 4 bbl carbs on a 1.8L four banger?
(or maybe a less colorful way to ask: what are the symptoms of an engine that is over-carbureted?)

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

rageglide

You sure you have an E?  I thought you had a B (or rather a couple of Bs).  Maybe an E came on the bike?  The E on my shovel absolutely needed a trimmed cover.   I thought I used same cable on my evo switching between the CV and E... but it's been many years.

Your CV is not going to let the carb be too big.  By design.  If anything your scoot is acting like it's under carb'd.  Put an 850 double pumper or two on a small engine the engine won't take any throttle without bog, but nurse it up to 6k RPM it'd be happier if the mixture was right.  :-)   2 rotor wankels with a 750 double pumper was a hot rod mod back in the day.  I think they were 2liter.

76shuvlinoff

February 19, 2016, 02:50:24 AM #32 Last Edit: February 19, 2016, 02:54:37 AM by 76shuvlinoff
QuoteJW was fighting the timing cup for a couple months trying to get the ignition working, it'd only fire on one cylinder with the cup he got from V-Twin, finally found an oem cup at a dealer and voila it fixed that problem.   

I had forgotten about that discussion,  :up:

It's been a while but as I recall when I went to a CV I also when to a 96 and up throttle assemble and cable.

Even farther back, when I went to the E from the K9 butterfly, the free length of the cable was too long and I tied a strategically placed knot in it to shorten it up for a few days until I got another one. Man, nothing but fugly flashbacks now, get out the duct tape.  :hyst:

  :agree: the CV is not too big, I keep thinking some kind of intake leak but I've been wrong a few thousand times in my life.
Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

Burnout

Yeah but all there is doesn't sound like Waaaaaaaaaaaabupbupbupbup!
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

JW113

And that has to be timing. Or I really am hitting the rev limiter! Going to test that theory tomorrow.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

fourthgear

   You don't need the A/C to test the S&S Carb.on the Bike . If you had an extra Throttle Cable laying around , you could just swap it onto the Throttle to run the S&S & leave the other in place , use a Zip Tie to keep it out of the way for the test .

    If you don't know where your Timing is , trying to adj. the Carb. or getting the best performance ,would be kinda difficult  .  Can't you use a Degree Wheel to check timing .

Burnout

I always say don't work on the carb for an electrical problem!
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

Hossamania

Is the throttle plate/butterfly opening all the way on wide open throttle? I have had to adjust a few over the years, the accel pump rod can hold it from opening all the way.
Can't help you with timing.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

JW113

So a quick update.

Roadrage Bob and I went for a fabulous February spin up in the Santa Cruz mountains this afternoon, he on his roadglide and me on my Electra Glide. He came by and we re-checked the ignition timing, which was WAY too advanced. We dialed it back to where I had originally timed it. Then hit the road for a nice shake down cruise for the old shovelhead and a FI tune ride for the Roadglide.

All in all we did about 85 miles (I think) with a lot of mixed high speed freeway, easy foothill roads, and windy mountain roads with nice sweepers. Blasting up I-280 at 80mph or so, we peeled off at Portola Valley road and wound our way over to legendary Highway 84, and followed a doofus in an Audi up to Alice's Restaurant at 84/35 junction. We blew through Alice's and took 84 on over to La Honda. At that point Bob left me in the dust and wrung out his TC, while I lumbered along on the old shovelhead, doing 60 a lot of the time in a 40 zone. Have to say, the old 4 speed chassis handles WAY better than the Softail I used to ride. I was trying to take it somewhat easy, as I did not want to tempt fate with those banana calipers on these downhill sweeping turns. Also, had a couple of surprises with water running across the road in some of the turns.

We pull over at Apple Jacks in La Honda and tossed back some beer. Shovelhead seemed to be running sweet, lots of torque but as been my complaint, not a lot of power to be had past 1/2 throttle or so. It has no problem holding it's own, but just don't ask too much of it.

We re-grouped and headed back up the hill to Alice's, then down Hwy 35 toward Saratoga. I had forgotten how the road up there has gone to $hit, and with Progressive springs in the front forks of the shovelhead, it was a bit of an unpleasant ride. Also, I started to hear a strange whisking noise coming from the rear of the bike. Brakes? Wheel bearings??

We got to Hwy 9 and headed down the hill toward Saratoga. Have to say, with tall gearing and an FLH transmission, going down hill on steep turns is not the most pleasant experience. Could not find a "happy" gear to be in, 2nd was to low and 3rd was too high. Anyway, with lots of gear shifting and braking we rolled into Saratoga, then peeled off to the right on Hwy 9 to Los Gatos and to a funkly high brow bar called Jack Rose to "re-fuel".

Bob told me the shovelhead was spewing lots of blue smoke coming down the hill. Hmm. Must be sucking it past the rings on deaccel? Dunno. It ran fine, no oddities from the pilot cabin that I could tell. Anyway, we pulled down a couple Negroni's, maybe one more than is politically correct. The sun had set and it started to get a bit chilly, so we saddled up and pointed the mules back to the barn.

A short jog down Hwy 9 to Hwy 17N up to San Jose, and we were on our way home. As is typical here, as soon as we got on the slab it was grid lock freeway, so we split cars as is done here to get the heck out of Dodge. I could not help but notice that in that close proximity, a screetchy sound bouncing off the cars to the right as I past them. Hmmm?? Brake disk?? After about 2 miles, the traffic eased up and we were humming along at 80mph. And then, out of nowhere, BAPPP BAPPP BAPPP, and back to the steady rumble of your typical HD. Damn, what now? I slowed it down a bit, maybe 70, and aging BAPP BAPP, BAPP. So over one more lane into the "slow lane" (oh the shame my brothers, I suck) and settled into a steady 65. After that, no problems at all until we pulled off at our exit and chugged home.

I pulled over at Bob's house, and we touched based a bit. He said some big old fireballs shot out the exhaust when I had felt the coughs that the motor had spewed. Hmm, I am thinking electrical. The thing had ran great up to that point, and did not complain at all over the course of our ride. Damn crappy switches? Flakey terminal block? Dunno.

Bob noticed the top edge of my rear brake disk was trashed, and sure enough, it was. The caliper seems to be riding on the disk. Time to get out the grinder and make some clearance? Anyway, that I think is the source that strange noise.

All in all, the old shovelhead did great. Hey, it made it home! What more do you want? I have a few more gremlins to flush out, but that's the fun in all this right? Away spirits, away with ye!!!

About the jetting and all. I am pretty much convinced at this point it's all in my head. 50HP is 50HP, and after a certain point, all the throttle in the world is not going to make this bike pull any harder than it can. Today has been a fantastic mind calibration excercise. The bike is a hoot to ride, just focus on the journey and not on how fast you can get to the destination. As it should be, right?

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

76shuvlinoff

February 28, 2016, 03:58:03 AM #39 Last Edit: February 28, 2016, 04:02:30 AM by 76shuvlinoff
First, great ride! I wish I could have been there.

All the popping etc is not normal, you still have a gremlin or two to sort out... or just ride it. My dad always said that if it's bad it'll get worse then you'll find it.  It can get expensive chasing a gremlin, but he didn't bother to tell me it can get expensive if you wait it out too.  :banghead:

When my rear bushings were shot the nanner would twist and rub the disc making all manner of ugly noise. I can't recall where I got them now but the bushings and pins are not hard to change.  Eventually I went to a GMA rear caliper and mount, the stock 3/4 bore master worked fine but a 5/8 bore gives it a bit softer more predictable pedal.
Mark
Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

Hossamania

Have you checked the slide diaphragm in the carb for rips or tears? My bike was doing the same thing, run good, but not make power in the upper range.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

fourthgear

I would still try the S&S , but it is starting to sound like it could be an electrical issue , but by switching carbs , you will know for sure if its fuel delivery or electrical i.e.,ignition , timing or a short of some sort . Coils will act up when hot .
I have owned & worked on a lot of Shovels & 50HP doesn't mean they won't go 100mph, just takes them longer to get there if set up properly , if you want to believe these old Speedo's , that is .
  My Panheads will not do what you are saying (both with CV 40's ), you should be able to go WOT & not have issues , well except for top end , of course.
  How do the plugs look after your ride ?

rageglide

Good write up JW!   A very nice little ride.

Before we headed out I rode the shovelhead after the timing changes.  I think it's running better than it had been previously.  Was able to get er up to speed much better than before and didn't have as obvious a Wall.  But still, above about 1/2 throttle the twistgrip transforms to a volume knob, making more noise and not much more lol   

I was hearing the rear disk dragging for quite a while after our ride back from Apple Jacks.  Not sure when exactly it had started but it was really obvious rolling into the parking lot at Jack Rose. 

The back fires were LOUD from where I was lol   Nice pyrotecnics.  JW had ear plugs in, I did not.    :dgust:   Shotgun blasts aimed at me lol

Good ride...

JW113

Mark: "All the popping etc is not normal, you still have a gremlin or two to sort out."

No doubt, and am pretty sure I have a flaky connection somewhere in the circuit between the battery/ign switch/junction box/run-off switch/junction box/coil. That's quite a convoluted path, and the first thing I am suspicious of is that run-off switch. The wiring harness in the handle bars is new that I got of eBay. I already had to replace the front brake switch with an OEM HD one. Maybe time to do the same for the run-off switch. But I've had almost identical symptoms before on other bike, which turned out to be a bad crimp on the battery wire terminal on the ignition switch. Basically, symptom is like the ign power gets interrupted for a 1/2 second.

Mark: "When my rear bushings were shot the nanner would twist and rub the disc making all manner of ugly noise. "

The pins and bushings are all new, I did the whole 9 yards when I rebuild the calipers. Not sure yet what's going on, will pull it down today hopefully and get an eyeball on it. I don't think it was making any noise until we came down off the mountain. Hwy 9 is not super steep, but it does give yer brakes a pretty good workout. Lots of down grade switchbacks and such, and if you don't have the gears (like this FLH4 speed), the brakes get even more worked. Clearly the disk is contacting the caliber body, and I'm wondering if the disk got hot and warped a bit? I am using one of those solid disks, no holes in it anywhere except for the bolt holes and hub center. Hmmm....

Hossamania: "Have you checked the slide diaphragm in the carb for rips or tears?"

Twice, at least. Have had that CV apart quite a few times trying to figure out what is going on. So far, everything checks out 100%.

fourthgear: "I would still try the S&S , but it is starting to sound like it could be an electrical issue"

Definitely electrical and not fuel delivery. It happens real quick, then resumes right back to running great. Just as if you had your thumb on the run-off switch, and flicked it quickly.

fourthgear: "I have owned & worked on a lot of Shovels & 50HP doesn't mean they won't go 100mph, just takes them longer to get there if set up properly"

Agree 100%, and that is basically how this one is running. I'm not saying it won't go fast, just saying it doesn't have much more "pull" beyond 1/2 throttle. But at 1/2 throttle, yes it will go 100mph if you want, just take a while to get there. 80mph is no problem at all on this thing. However comfort factor starts to come into play at that speed, the vibes in the bars are coming through pretty good. At 65, it's as smooth as glass, and 70-75 is no big deal. 80 and higher, is getting into the un-fun zone.

fourthgear: "My Panheads will not do what you are saying (both with CV 40's ), you should be able to go WOT & not have issues , well except for top end , of course.  How do the plugs look after your ride ?"


The only issue I have with WOT is that it doesn't pull a whole lot more than 1/2 throttle, but the dyno will tell all. Will try to schedule an appointment this week and see what is up. Here's my somewhat warped thinking. A 40mm CV is a pretty big carb. This one was on a 110HP TC-95 for a  while (Bob's Roadglide!). If it can supply a 110HP bike with enough air, then it surely has got plenty of "reserve" for a 50HP bike. Dunno, will chase this one down until I get to the bottom of it.

Good point about the plugs, will have a look this morning. Hoping that what ever was causing the downhill smoke hasn't trashed 'em.

Shovelhead: It's not a motorcycle, it's a life long works in progress
:SM:

cheers,
-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

ViennaHog

Shovelhead: It's not a motorcycle, it's a life long works in progress
:SM:

Dunno, mine has a rebuilt pretty much stock engine with Tillitson and points. She just runs now without problems for a few miles now. Will see how she does during the season.

JW113

Well, I spent today taking a look at the <stalll... KA-BANG> problem my FLH developed a few weeks ago. I was pretty sure it was in the electrical side, since the symptom was almost exact of flipping the Run-Off switch while going down the road.

The ignition swith, and also the Run-Stop switch, are both aftermarket CRAP. Therefore, I hunted around at the various HD dealers across the nation and secured some stock parts. They both showed up this week, and thus today I went to install them. I started with the ignition switch, since it is the easier of the two. After pulling the dash bezel, I saw what is in the pic below. I know most of you guys are pretty smart, but can you guess what the source of the KA-BANG problem is?

2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

JW113

With picture!

[attach=0]

As with all things Shovelhead, Loctite is your friend. Use it, or lose "it".

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Hossamania

Well that might cause some issues. Bummer you had to spend money on parts to find it. But now you have spares.
Let us know if that fixes the problem, though it is a pretty obvious flaw. Good job chasing it as an electrical problem instead of just fuel.
If the government gives you everything you want,
it can take away everything you have.

ViennaHog

Quote from: JW113 on April 03, 2016, 07:48:50 PM
With picture!

[attach=0]

As with all things Shovelhead, Loctite is your friend. Use it, or lose "it".

-JW

If you have an original ignition switch with a matching in good or NOS condition to spare I buy it from you. Hard to come by over here.

JW113

Well Vienna, the NOS ignition switch (says Made In Japan) is now on my bike. The aftermarket one (says Made in Taiwan) is on the bench. I think you do not want that one. Besides being worn out, and crunchy feeling, it's crap from Taiwan.

I ordered a new one from St. Charles Harley Davidson. I can not be sure, but I think if you contact them, they would send you one.

http://www.stcharlesharleydavidson.com/OEMpartfinder.htm

For the Run-Stop switch, I had to call about 5 dealerships that were "supposed" to have an OEM one in stock, but only number 5 (in Kansas) did. Good luck finding another one of those!

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

76shuvlinoff

 Glad you found it JW.  Over the years I've two of those eyelets break right off. 

I doubt it applies here but I have seen guys cut a gasket out of a milk jug (why not use a thin rubber gasket?) and fit it around the switch over those connections. I dunno, maybe that would reduce vibration at those points.  :nix:
Critics are men who watch a battle from a high place, then come down and shoot the survivors.
 - Ernest Hemingway

dirtymike

Most "OEM" handlebar switches and the IGN switch for the shovel head are made and were made in the Asian community. Its been that way since "AMF" 1969. Definitely not Scottish.     

JW113

I have no problem with anything made in Japan. The stuff works better and lasts longer than stuff made most anywhere else.

The OEM handlebar toggle switches say "Grayhill" on them. Grayhill is in Chicago, so I'm assuming HD/AMF bid them out to Grayhill. We use stuff from Grayhill at my company, good quality. Whether the HD switches were actually made in China or where ever, I have no idea. But at least it has a quality brand name on it. The aftermarket crap.... no markings what so ever, who knows who's making it.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

dirtymike

Grayhill is a distribution company like anything else you find for a (AMF) shovelhead. The Japanese contract out to other countries like china and Taiwan. Just as we do to Mexico and the "stan"s" in the Mediterranean. For the Japanese Taiwan is the easiest because of the trade agreement with the US. Lifes a bitch when you cant find good Scottish craftsmanship.       

Trouble

Good find. Now, does it run better with the enriched jetting you changed to or do you still need to hash that out? WOT?
You can try and make something idiot-proof, but those idiots are so darn clever

dirtymike

WOT is the only why to get power out of a shovelhead. Best you can do is 120. Been wrenching on these antiquated machines for a long time. Aftermarket is all you got, sorry.

JW113

Trouble: "Now, does it run better with the enriched jetting you changed to or do you still need to hash that out? WOT?"

Here is what I am with that. With the jetting in there now (48 pilot/180 main), it runs great. If you give it WOT, it would not pull all that great. If you backed it off just a little from WOT, it would pull a little harder.

I have Cycle Shack dual shorties, which I removed the stock baffles. I was thinking this is adding to the problem. The baffles had 24 1/4" dia holes drilled near the back near the outlet. I took a hacksaw and dremel with cut of wheel, and opened up three big square "holes" in each baffle, cutting between the drilled holes. This opened it up quite a bit, but still had that deflector up front to make the exhaust go around the bafflle tube, then back into the (now) big square holes and out. I then put them back in the pipes.

This made a difference with the "back off from WOT" issue, it doesn't do that now. That said, if you give it WOT, it still does not pull that hard. In fact, not a whole lot more than at 1/2 throttle. A little, but not a lot. Keep in mind that I am not winding the thing out to redline, maybe up to 4500rpm.

I am pretty convinced at this point that there is nothing wrong, other than the carburetor can supply at least twice the CFMs of what the engine can pull through it. i.e., the carb is sized too big for the motor that it's on. The bike had no problem at all with power in the low end, and from a dead start will zip right up to 75mph or more. But at a steady 75 in 4th, if you give it WOT, it will not pick up speed all that fast. In 4th, 75 is right at 3000rpm. Dropping to 3rd it will pick up speed better.

Now that I've gotten the electrical gremlin exorcised out, will schedule a session with the dyno shop, we'll see where we are.

Frankly, I'm a-thinkin that what is got is all it's got, and I just need to aclimate...

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

rageglide

Right on, glad you found the culprit.  Funny we discussed that exact problem on Sat night.  (Both JW and I have had the jumper/feed wire breakage issue on softails).

Did the new switch come with new screws and the little lock washers?  I've never had one loosen up before, no loctite.

JW113

Nope. Bare posts sticking out.

I reused the screws from the old switch. 6-32x1/4. I had to cut down one from my parts bin for the lost one. And yes, used blue loctite on them all. Fool me once, shame on you, MacGregor.....

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

Trouble

Thanks for sharing how you got that sorted out.
Sounds like you did the right thing opening up the baffles. And yes, you describe what sounds like a typical stock-ish shovel just being a tad tempermental. Enjoy it as you have discovered. :beer:
You can try and make something idiot-proof, but those idiots are so darn clever

Hogman

Quote from: JW113 on April 04, 2016, 05:55:33 PM
Trouble: "Now, does it run better with the enriched jetting you changed to or do you still need to hash that out? WOT?"

Here is what I am with that. With the jetting in there now (48 pilot/180 main), it runs great. If you give it WOT, it would not pull all that great. If you backed it off just a little from WOT, it would pull a little harder.

I have Cycle Shack dual shorties, which I removed the stock baffles. I was thinking this is adding to the problem. The baffles had 24 1/4" dia holes drilled near the back near the outlet. I took a hacksaw and dremel with cut of wheel, and opened up three big square "holes" in each baffle, cutting between the drilled holes. This opened it up quite a bit, but still had that deflector up front to make the exhaust go around the bafflle tube, then back into the (now) big square holes and out. I then put them back in the pipes.

This made a difference with the "back off from WOT" issue, it doesn't do that now. That said, if you give it WOT, it still does not pull that hard. In fact, not a whole lot more than at 1/2 throttle. A little, but not a lot. Keep in mind that I am not winding the thing out to redline, maybe up to 4500rpm.

I am pretty convinced at this point that there is nothing wrong, other than the carburetor can supply at least twice the CFMs of what the engine can pull through it. i.e., the carb is sized too big for the motor that it's on. The bike had no problem at all with power in the low end, and from a dead start will zip right up to 75mph or more. But at a steady 75 in 4th, if you give it WOT, it will not pick up speed all that fast. In 4th, 75 is right at 3000rpm. Dropping to 3rd it will pick up speed better.

Now that I've gotten the electrical gremlin exorcised out, will schedule a session with the dyno shop, we'll see where we are.

Frankly, I'm a-thinkin that what is got is all it's got, and I just need to aclimate...

-JW


Sorry to Dig up this Older Post, BUTT, I was Looking for Something in particular, & Found This.
JW, Did You Ever Do the Dyno Session, & IF so, Did You Post it Here, er, well, over on the Dyno Stuff? (I Looked QUITE a Ways Back, & Couldn't Find it, UNLESS you MAYBE had Someone Else Post it, Then I Just Wasted my Time Looking for it..... :idunno: [/size][/color])[/size][size=78%]  [/size][/size]IF You Didn't do the Dyno, Shall I ASS U ME You Solved All the Issues With the New Switch etc.? Or???
THANKS in Advance for any Reply Sir.




ME
Hogman

JW113

Have not. Not yet, anyway. Without going into a rant, it's getting harder and harder to find anybody here in the south bay area who will do dyno tuning. CARB has put the hammer down pretty hard. My local indie machine shop dude says he will, but I'd need to drop the bike off for who knows how long, and he'd do it "in between making real money". While I appreciate the offer, I kind of want to be there and watch the bolts and parts fall off with my own eyes. LOL
:hyst:

So stay tuned, I'm trying to synchronize a day off and an appointment with him. Else, ride up to Hayward and see if he who shall remain nameless will do it.

Oh, and indeed, the electrial problem is fixed, no issues at all. In fact, after pulling a Crane Hi4 out and putting points back in, it's been solid reliable.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

turboprop

Quote from: JW113 on March 29, 2018, 08:59:28 AM
Have not. Not yet, anyway. Without going into a rant, it's getting harder and harder to find anybody here in the south bay area who will do dyno tuning. CARB has put the hammer down pretty hard. My local indie machine shop dude says he will, but I'd need to drop the bike off for who knows how long, and he'd do it "in between making real money". While I appreciate the offer, I kind of want to be there and watch the bolts and parts fall off with my own eyes. LOL
:hyst:

So stay tuned, I'm trying to synchronize a day off and an appointment with him. Else, ride up to Hayward and see if he who shall remain nameless will do it.

Oh, and indeed, the electrial problem is fixed, no issues at all. In fact, after pulling a Crane Hi4 out and putting points back in, it's been solid reliable.

-JW

If all you are after is a proper tune and dont care about seeing a number you should consider mounting an AFR gauge on your bike. After a few weeks of riding and swapping jets, the tune will be pretty much spot on for how and where you ride. Would probably even cost less in the long run.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

dirtymike

I have 48/190 for the jets with a N86 needle from CVP. I had to time the accelerator pump so the fuel spray didn't hit the throttle plate. Dirtry

Hogman

Quote from: JW113 on March 29, 2018, 08:59:28 AM
Have not. Not yet, anyway. Without going into a rant, it's getting harder and harder to find anybody here in the south bay area who will do dyno tuning. CARB has put the hammer down pretty hard. I've Heard a Little about That. A Buddy Lives down in, Damn, I Can't Remember the Name of His City Now! Jeeez man, Anyways, He Calls me up here Quite a Bit, and That Has Come Up a Few Times. He has what he Thinks is a HOT-ROD EVO Bagger. I KNOW he Spent a Ton of $$$$ on the Engine, But I Don't Think it's ALL that & More..... (Just MY Opinion from What HE Tells me!) LOL
My local indie machine shop dude says he will, but I'd need to drop the bike off for who knows how long, and he'd do it "in between making real money". While I appreciate the offer, I kind of want to be there and watch the bolts and parts fall off with my own eyes. LOL [/size][/color] I'm With Ya There JW, 10000%!   LOLOL
:hyst:

So stay tuned, I'm trying to synchronize a day off and an appointment with him. Else, ride up to Hayward and see if he who shall remain nameless will do it.   [/size][/color]I WILL Sir, NOT a Problem my Friend, NOT a Problem at All!

Oh, and indeed, the electrial problem is fixed, no issues at all. In fact, after pulling a Crane Hi4 out and putting points back in, it's been solid reliable.
[/size][/color]GREAT, Glad To Hear That!
[/size][/color]Many THANKS For this Update/Reply too!
[/size][/color]
[/size][/color]ME

-JW
Hogman

JW113

OK Turbo, since it is getting to be such a PITA to get a dyno tune done out this way anymore, I'll bite. What AFR gauge do you recommend? I don't suppose they have anything that can just be shoved up the exhaust pipe without having to hack up the pipe? If I do go this route, would be nice to be able to use it on more than one bike.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

turboprop

Quote from: JW113 on March 30, 2018, 08:08:42 AM
OK Turbo, since it is getting to be such a PITA to get a dyno tune done out this way anymore, I'll bite. What AFR gauge do you recommend? I don't suppose they have anything that can just be shoved up the exhaust pipe without having to hack up the pipe? If I do go this route, would be nice to be able to use it on more than one bike.

-JW

I have used a bunch of different AFR gauges. Heck, my red bike is on the RB Racing website in thier AFR section. The one I am currently running and like the most is my Wego III. Its not really made in the shape of a gauge, but more like an evo ignition module. I have it attached to the handle bar clamp with velcro. It not only displays in real time but logs RPM and AFR.

I welded a bung into my pipes, and most all of my buddies pipes as well. I am sure something could be shoved up the pipe but i think it would require some sort of air pump.

I have the Wego hard wired into the bike. Cant really imagine not having it there. I am at the point now where I change a jet or pin position about every other week, which is way down from several times a day. Engine runs amazing, gas mileage is very good.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

JW113

So I poked around a little. Tell me if I got this straight.

The "gauge" portion is simply a volt meter. Unless you want a "smart gauge" like the one you mentioned, with all sorts of data logging capabiltiy, or other features besides just reading the sensor.

The magic is all in the sensor. Seems most all of the setups I saw are using a Bosch sensor of one type or another. Narrow band, wide band, 12mm, 18mm, etc.

Do I got that right so far?

So if I wanted to play around with one of these setups, and just wanted the A/F version of a timing light and nothing else, do I just get simple A/F gauge, a Bosch narrow band sensor, and go with it?

thanks,
JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

turboprop

Quote from: JW113 on March 31, 2018, 10:00:59 AM
So I poked around a little. Tell me if I got this straight.

The "gauge" portion is simply a volt meter. Unless you want a "smart gauge" like the one you mentioned, with all sorts of data logging capabiltiy, or other features besides just reading the sensor.

The magic is all in the sensor. Seems most all of the setups I saw are using a Bosch sensor of one type or another. Narrow band, wide band, 12mm, 18mm, etc.

Do I got that right so far?

So if I wanted to play around with one of these setups, and just wanted the A/F version of a timing light and nothing else, do I just get simple A/F gauge, a Bosch narrow band sensor, and go with it?

thanks,
JW

I think you would do better with a system that utilizes a wide band sensor.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

JW113

What is the advantage of one over the other?

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

turboprop

Quote from: JW113 on March 31, 2018, 10:22:50 AM
What is the advantage of one over the other?

-JW

Look the twin cam sections. This has been beaten to death on this and every other harley site.
'We' like this' - Said by the one man operation.

Burnout

There is no advantage from one to the other they do not do the same function.

A narrow band sensor is a switching type for unbalanced computer control, it is made for rapid response switching output from rich to lean. It does not have a linear output that matches O2 levels.

A wide band sensor needs a controller and outputs a variable signal from 1-4 volts that is directly comparable to the O2 level it is exposed to.

And remember an O2 sensor checks O2 levels, AFR readings are INTERPOLATED from the O2 content.
Thus it is possible for an overfueled motor to give a high AFR indication.
The higher O2 content due to a rich misfire will be interpolated as a lean AFR.
They don't call me Ironhead Rick just because I'm "hard headed"

JW113

This is a followup to this thread. Regarding the "doesn't have much pull past 1/2 throttle" problem.

Problem solved. Root cause: too much cam. I had been running a Crane 288-2B, came recommened from the shovelhead.us guys, and with a casual glance at the timing specs, not exactly a hot rod cam. But the more I researched, indeed for a stock Shovelhead's low compression and cavernous intake ports, yes, too much cam. I put the stock "H" cam it it. And amazingly, it runs 200% better. Crisp throttle response throughout the RPM range, and yes, even takes throttle up to WOT now.

-JW
2004 FLHRS   1977 FLH Shovelhead  1992 FLSTC
1945 Indian Chief   1978 XL Bobber

koko3052