Just wondered what you guy's think. I have a stock (or so I think, the bike is std bore but may have had head work, and has V&H open shotguns) 1340 FXR motor running a CV carb, but did see on a invoive that came with the bike, the guy before me had bought a S&S for it.
Maybe he took it off and put the CV on to sell or maybe it didn't run right with the S&S?
anyway, I see a few coming up on E-bay every so often so thought It may be worth getting a S&S to try?
I guess for a stock bike with mods I need a Super E and not a G ??... ... so is the Super E big enough?
And will it be any better / easier to tune than the CV carb?
Nothing wrong with the CV, I guess I'm just messing...
Unless you are really hoping it up (Big Cam ) The CV is one fo the greatest carbs out there.
In fact, there are people making them work for the 143-inch engines (woods- https://www.woodcarbs.com/ )
All CV compensate somewhat for altitude too, they are close as to a venturi injection as one can get.
The Mikuni is great also . Very EZ to adjust.
If I had the choice it would be the CV.
CV is the way to go. Get it set up right and you will be good to go.
Never used one. Which of (if any) of the cheap off-shore CV knock offs are any good?
Just say NO to Chinese crap.
It never works very well
Quote from: thumper 823 on July 01, 2020, 05:42:59 PM
Just say NO to Chinese crap.
It never works very well
Never had an excuse to mess with one. This was my assumption so never had any great inclination to try either. My go-to when having have a stock carb that was just beyond help was always a Mikuni.
Their only real problem is changing the Main jet as the float bowl has to be dropped.
A Muk is more EZ
But,..once you get her dialed in it is done forever ...Plus there SO MAMNY HD with these you should not have to guess.
Most dyno rooms will tell you they will support a 100 Horsepower.
SO..choices.
Quote from: thumper 823 on July 01, 2020, 05:42:59 PM
Just say NO to Chinese crap.
It never works very well
This is coming from someone that has never bought a chinese crap CV. I have.
As far as I can tell, they are no different than the original Keihin CV carb. I bought one from Ebay just to check it out. It has functioned identical to any Japanese made CV that I have ever owned. I have one on one of my favorite bikes, and it is functioning perfectly. Anybody that wants to badmouth these carburetors, please put up some evidence that they are not quality. My experience has found they are very good. But, you judge for your self.
-JW
Quote from: JW113 on July 01, 2020, 08:27:24 PM
Quote from: thumper 823 on July 01, 2020, 05:42:59 PM
Just say NO to Chinese crap.
It never works very well
This is coming from someone that has never bought a chinese crap CV. I have.
As far as I can tell, they are no different than the original Keihin CV carb. I bought one from Ebay just to check it out. It has functioned identical to any Japanese made CV that I have ever owned. I have one on one of my favorite bikes, and it is functioning perfectly. Anybody that wants to badmouth these carburetors, please put up some evidence that they are not quality. My experience has found they are very good. But, you judge for your self.
-JW
Just curious-- Honest question, -Have you ever hooked up an AFR to one and see what is going on?
The CV is like said all most fuel injection. If you don't know what I mean-rock solid AfR numbers at all RPM ranges.
I have had a couple of chinease junkers come through and they never made it off the table.
You all do as you like, but counterfeit parts are just that.
That is one big reason not to support them
Quote from: JW113 on July 01, 2020, 08:27:24 PM
As far as I can tell, they are no different than the original Keihin CV carb. I bought one from Ebay just to check it out. It has functioned identical to any Japanese made CV that I have ever owned. I have one on one of my favorite bikes, and it is functioning perfectly. Anybody that wants to badmouth these carburetors, please put up some evidence that they are not quality. My experience has found they are very good. But, you judge for your self.
-JW
Have had 2 here bought from Ebay and Amazon by 2 different people and they were crap. The jet threads were not CV standard so no genuine jets would thread in.
The needle area was fine but the finish of the slide area was atrocious.
Both were replaced with 2nd hand rebuilt genuine CV carbs which work perfectly.
Maybe you got lucky but judging by what I have seen I would not touch a Chinese CV, S&S or Mikuni knockoff.
It's not worth any ones time or cash to buy crap like that.
The Counterfeit Mukuini is the same way -POS
Ya gets what ya pay for.
Plus with all the hype of buying a Harley, buying American and all the crap, why add Chinese to it?
This seems oxymoronic.
OP already has a CV , bike probally runs like "Potty mouth" because of the exhaust
To the OP's questions:
Yes, an "E" is plenty of carb if going S&S.
As far as tuning, I've not done an E, but I can't believe it is as simple as a CV.
Will the S&S be better? It likely will not as good gas mileage as the CV, really won't improve horsepower, doesn't self adjust to altitude changes as readily, but it does look better.
Quote from: Hossamania on July 02, 2020, 05:36:22 AM
To the OP's questions:
Yes, an "E" is plenty of carb if going S&S.
As far as tuning, I've not done an E, but I can't believe it is as simple as a CV.
Will the S&S be better? It likely will not as good gas mileage as the CV, really won't improve horsepower, doesn't self adjust to altitude changes as readily, but it does look better.
Agree... in Principal.
Stock 80 incher?? I have had great luck with just about any carb out there..
two things tho... I would Always use the late model "push on spogot" Evo Manifold.. which leaves one with CV, or there is the Qwiksilver II which I personally love, or the Mikuni, or... the Original Screamin Eagle [Andrews Flowmaster] comes in a spigot mount...
Preferably we do Not support the ~ "Copy That" industry..
The Mikuni HSR42 will drop right in to your existing CV setup, so it's the easiest swap. It's also the best carburetor. Back to back it with a CV, and you will notice a much crisper throttle, and it will always make more power. The vacuum CV carb just doesn't have the throttle response like the Mikuni flat slide. You can really dial the HSR in too, literally to fuel injection levels. (I tune with a wide band)
The S&S E would also work, but they are not very tunable and all the ones I have seem to stumble. I can swap a Mikuni on my Super E bikes and all the problems instantly go away. I'd probably use a modified CV before a super E, but honestly don't put anything other than HSR's on my stuff. (unless it's a chopper or restoration)
People get the idea that a carb is going to add horsepower...in most cases it never will at street drivable RPM.
It is nothing but a hole with smaller holes (venturies Bernoulli's principle ) no magic involved unless one bolts on a toliston/ Linkert .
Then one might need a wand.
S&S is for sure caveman compared to a CV and Mukuni .
But with thunder jets etc they can be made to run.
Quote from: Racepres on July 02, 2020, 05:56:26 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on July 02, 2020, 05:36:22 AM
To the OP's questions:
Yes, an "E" is plenty of carb if going S&S.
As far as tuning, I've not done an E, but I can't believe it is as simple as a CV.
Will the S&S be better? It likely will not as good gas mileage as the CV, really won't improve horsepower, doesn't self adjust to altitude changes as readily, but it does look better.
Agree... in Principal.
Stock 80 incher?? I have had great luck with just about any carb out there..
two things tho... I would Always use the late model "push on spogot" Evo Manifold.. which leaves one with CV, or there is the Qwiksilver II which I personally love, or the Mikuni, or... the Original Screamin Eagle [Andrews Flowmaster] comes in a spigot mount...
Preferably we do Not support the ~ "Copy That" industry..
On EVO's, I have both the Mikuni "Total Kit", which uses a Mikuni manifold (similar to an S&S) with a bolt on rubber adapter flange, and then an HSR specific air cleaner that bolts to the heads; and the Mikuni "Easy Kit" which uses a stock CV manifold and any stage 1 air filter for a head breather. I agree, that the CV manifold set up is a bit better, but they both stick out basically the same amount.
Quote from: thumper 823 on July 01, 2020, 08:50:52 PM
Just curious-- Honest question, -Have you ever hooked up an AFR to one and see what is going on?
Yes. It's on my Ironhead, and used a Daytona Sensors WEGO to dial it in dead nuts on. It runs perfect. I can't speak to the other poor quality copies that Scotty mentioned, but the one I bought is in every way identical to the Keihin, which by the way is no longer made. So your choice is to roll the dice and buy a used and maybe worn out piece of junk, or take a risk and by one of these new copies. I did the later, and could not be happier.
Back to the OP: Keep the CV, as far as carburetors go, it doesn't get much better than that. As Thumper said, horsepower does not come from the carb, as along as it's sized for the motor. Which the CV is for any HD up to ~100 cubes. Mikuni is a nice carb, but it will make no more HP than a CV. The "aesthetics" are different, i.e. it does not have an air flow controlled slider, but some of us like how that takes the twitchyness out of the throttle action.
-JW
I am an avid knuckle buster in my little shop
if you look at my threads -not to brag but I have a very nicely moded Evo .
To the point-
Almost everyone says the Mukuni will out-accelerate the CV.
I personally can't find the difference.
I am sure a dyno report would confirm one way or the other.
It would be great if someone could share a comparison.
Things I HATE about the Mukuni is it rattles! (reversion with a cam)
Things I like -ease of jet change.
After I installed the DM 530 I could not to save my life get the CV to idle. Changed to Mikuni I had here laying around and viola it was cured.
Anyone else with that problem?
Did you try drilling an air bleed hole in the throttle plate of the CV?
-JW
Yes, to no avail.
I am sure there is just too much reversion going on...
Okay, thanks for the info.. it was just a thought as I saw one for sale and my mate always used S&S and it started good on the kicker...
I will stick with my CV and spend the money of fuel :)
You will spend a lot less on fuel with a CV compared to an S&S toilet
CV - Dependable - Easy Setup Fuel Mileage Up Excellent on Stock with only a few minor modifications to make it user friendly - Most advanced - Good fuel mileage.
E - Easy Setup, but can be a pain, not much adjustment for fine tuning / Fuel Mileage Down
Mikuni - The best of all but, requires more patients. Jets are a piece of cake. Tab Adjustment not so much - Once the Ignition Module and it are liking each other, VERY hard to beat. And, when set, they perform far beyond the others for eons. Fuel Mileage Down. Very fast response when dialed in!
Honestly, the CV or Mikuni you won't be disappointed. "Sometimes" The S&S is just "okay"
Having used all three S&S e is by far the easiest to tune
Really? Please explain.
-JW
Quote from: capn on July 03, 2020, 07:04:09 AM
Having used all three S&S e is by far the easiest to tune
Not much there to tune either...
Two jets,no diaphram no slide no needle.
How about adding a thunder jet to the "E". With proper jetting more tunable now as far as better transition and eliminating flat spot?
I've been very happy with Mikuni carbs on past 1340 bikes. Smooth power without stumble. Would be my recommendation to anyone else. But the S&S looks cool on my fxr :SM:
Once my CV44 craps out, if I can't find another, I'm going Mikuni. I don't care if it rattles, just adds character, like a Ducati dry clutch rattle. Maybe be I'll add one of those hypercharger thingies and get the double rattle going.
I will send you a fixable CV if you promise not to pout a POS hypercharger on.
what a waste of MONEY!
Quote from: Hossamania on July 04, 2020, 08:43:41 AM
Once my CV44 craps out, if I can't find another, I'm going Mikuni. I don't care if it rattles, just adds character, like a Ducati dry clutch rattle. Maybe be I'll add one of those hypercharger thingies and get the double rattle going.
Add thunder header with loose baffle, done! :SM:
The flat slide rattle never really bothered me. Especially with stock ish cams
Quote from: Hossamania on July 04, 2020, 08:43:41 AM
Once my CV44 craps out, if I can't find another, I'm going Mikuni. I don't care if it rattles, just adds character, like a Ducati dry clutch rattle. Maybe be I'll add one of those hypercharger thingies and get the double rattle going.
Or you can support US products and give Lectron a go.
https://www.lectronfuelsystems.com/4t/harley-davidson/harley.html
LOL
"the S&S is just a Glorified Bendix..."
One of the best descriptions of the S&S I've read.
As for ease of tuning, let's not forget the accelerator pump adjustment screw.
(https://i.imgur.com/ARBcTho.jpg)
As far as the Chinese copy of a Japanese carb you can't buy new anymore, I bought one of them. Cheapest I could find, ~$85 shipped to my house. I expected Harbor Freight quality, but I was seriously surprised. I tore it down looking for imperfections and found none. Even the float was set at the correct level. I dropped a CVP needle and the jets I needed, installed it, backed the slow jet screw 1/2 a turn out and the bike starts and runs great. It replaced a pre-2003 S&S Super E. It came with a fixed slow jet that made the bike hard to start and idle like crap. Off idle, the S&S was fine.
YMMV
https://www.lectronfuelsystems.com/4t/harley-davidson/harley.html
Very interesting. Me like. Unfortunately at that price level I just may have to suffer for awhile.
Quote from: Deye76 on July 04, 2020, 11:00:20 AM
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 04, 2020, 09:46:41 AM
Quote from: Hossamania on July 04, 2020, 08:43:41 AM
Once my CV44 craps out, if I can't find another, I'm going Mikuni. I don't care if it rattles, just adds character, like a Ducati dry clutch rattle. Maybe be I'll add one of those hypercharger thingies and get the double rattle going.
Or you can support US products and give Lectron a go.
https://www.lectronfuelsystems.com/4t/harley-davidson/harley.html
Lectron were snowmobile carbs, and didn't work well on Harley's years ago, but have come a really long way since then. When I have to replace the carb on my FXR, it will be a Lectron.
My buddy Butch and I put a Lectron on his 84" Shovel. I want to say it was 38mm, but I'm not certain. This must have been around 1982, 1983 I think. It was actually a kit for Harley's, it had a cable, throttle, air breather, he bought it at a long gone Harley dealer in Dayton Kentucky. For the life of me I can't recall their name.
The Shovel ran very nice, smooth, easy to start, was a great addition to the bike. He took off an S&S Super B which had their issues. The 'B' carb was never actually designed for street use.
Brian, when my friend and I tried it, was on a Shovel, 1976.
They did got better John. :up:
I remember earlier I think guys were taking the carburetors as setup for off road trail bikes. Lectron used to be an upgrade from the old Bing carburetors on Husqvarna and other brands that I can't remember. I remember it took some fiddling to get the Shovel running decent.
Seem to remember the kit had a couple of needles. Been a long time ago.
The way I like mine
:up:WFOLarry. Nothing wrong with a S&S especially one "worked". I've run B's E's and G's on Pan Shovel Evo, all over the country, in different altitudes, never missed a beat. Back in the early 1990's we were walking down main street in Sturgis, 6 or 7 out of 10 bikes had S&S carbs. Are they the best? None mentioned in this thread are the best. All comments, including mine are subjective. :hug:
Bottom line: success comes in many forms.
The BEST carb is one you can relate to and are able to adjust as needed.
A 2 circuit carb is easy to get running but will not likely work well in all conditions.
I liken a 2 circuit carb to a barn door for air and a fire hose for fuel (poor regulation).
I like slide throttle valves because they have a more linear throttle response and a variable venturi.
So even if the carb is too big, the VV will still meter fuel well at less than WFO.
A VV in steady state will provide way better fuel atomization and metering than a big butterfly carb.
Don't confuse dyno numbers or drag race results with street use.
Or the added Thunder Jet as something so special. ^^^
Quote from: 1340evo on July 01, 2020, 01:59:51 PM
Just wondered what you guy's think. I have a stock (or so I think, the bike is std bore but may have had head work, and has V&H open shotguns) 1340 FXR motor running a CV carb, but did see on a invoive that came with the bike, the guy before me had bought a S&S for it.
Maybe he took it off and put the CV on to sell or maybe it didn't run right with the S&S? Anything other than you asking him is speculation. Might as well be asking the arm chair crowd about space, politics or religion.
anyway, I see a few coming up on E-bay every so often so thought It may be worth getting a S&S to try? Not really.
I guess for a stock bike with mods I need a Super E and not a G ??... ... so is the Super E big enough? Yes.
And will it be any better / easier to tune than the CV carb? No/No. Will add that easier to tune is too vague. Will changing the jets in a Super be easier than changing jets and pins in a CV yes Will it result in a better tune, no it wont. IME, while changing the hardware is easier on a Super, achieving a tune equivalent to that of a CV is difficult if not impossible.
Nothing wrong with the CV, I guess I'm just messing...If you want to mess around, install an AFR ratio monitor with a live display on your bike and see what your tune looks like for a few months. Then if you want to mess around, you will have a clinical base line to compare to vs listening to internet experts.
There are a bunch of post of this forum and every other forum about which jets, pins and shims to use for various engines with a CV carb. This isn't like fuel injection. What ever the OEM jets where for an 80" evo, your little 80" with head work is not that far what everyone else is running in their little 80" engines.
Quote from: capn on July 03, 2020, 07:04:09 AM
Having used all three S&S e is by far the easiest to tune
:agree:
Quote from: screem on July 12, 2020, 04:46:39 PM
Quote from: capn on July 03, 2020, 07:04:09 AM
Having used all three S&S e is by far the easiest to tune
:agree:
Easiest to change hardware or easiest to get a good tune are very different.
Most people have no clue about a tune, what their AFR is, and still think they can read plugs.
The simple part is that even if the gas was NOT tainted, reading plugs take the expertise of Smoky Yunick.
Albeit tons of articles read and talk all about just the color.
There is so much more!
The simple AFR installed on your bike makes even the idiot almost an expert and does away with guesswork.
Quote from: thumper 823 on July 12, 2020, 05:25:13 PM
Most people have no clue about a tune, what their AFR is, and still think they can read plugs.
The simple part is that even if the gas was NOT tainted, reading plugs take the expertise of Smoky Yunick.
Albeit tons of articles read and talk all about just the color.
There is so much more!
The simple AFR installed on your bike makes even the idiot almost an expert and does away with guesswork.
I can still read plugs I have some in front of me. One says NGK and other says Harley Davidson.
But yes a AFR meter is really the only way to properly dial in carb or EFI.
It's amazing just what the different needles on a CV will make let alone the jets.
I've never had or used an AFR meter.
What would I look for in a meter? What brand/model would you guys suggest.
I type in "AFR meter for carburetor" in my search bar but way too much stuff pops up.
Here's a start.
Innovate MTX-L Digital Air/Fuel Ratio Gauge (https://www.summitracing.com/parts/inn-3918?seid=srese1&gclid=Cj0KCQjwu8r4BRCzARIsAA21i_DyzyP994tU7oucXAF61wjlcdAcx_k-DTxxbTjyoqtbioyYf-rBdBcaAgkxEALw_wcB)
Here's a lot of info to sift through, but all HD related. You may even notice a members bike here.
https://rbracing-rsr.com/rsrgauge.htm
HD is only about 100 years behind in technolgy compared to modern engines.
Variable stroke,
Variable manifold runners,
Variable cam timing and all sorts of stuff.
Those of us that love or at least or find more horsepower interesting grab all the
information we can!
If we have trespassed The HD low HP per cubic inch formula, we need to then look at other engine reading parameters.
I do hear others scoff at AFR gauges but I am so sure they are so much smarter then the geniuses that run dyno stalls.
DO yourself a favor -along with CR jumps install a AFR gauge.
No guess work required from that point on!
Quote from: PJultra on July 18, 2020, 06:52:22 PM
I've never had or used an AFR meter.
What would I look for in a meter? What brand/model would you guys suggest.
I type in "AFR meter for carburetor" in my search bar but way too much stuff pops up.
Dont type in AFR meter for carburator. Instead, simply try searching AFR gauge. The better ones will be at the top. Instead of humming and hawing about brand or any other superficial nonsense, look at the type of sensor used. You want one with a wide-band sensor, preferably the later Bosh 4.9 but there is nothing wrong with a system that uses the 4.2 sensor. What is important is how the gauge can be mounted on the bike. For this reason, I am now using a Daytona Twin Tech Wego III, not the best, but I like its form factor. It is attached to the handle bar clamp using velcro. I am sure many others will come along to tell you that what they have is the best. For what you will be doing, it doesn't make a difference. Get one with a wide band sensor that you can easily mount on your bike in a place where you can easily see it.
Quote from: Ohio HD on July 18, 2020, 08:28:30 PM
Here's a lot of info to sift through, but all HD related. You may even notice a members bike here.
https://rbracing-rsr.com/rsrgauge.htm
Contrary to the general consensus here, that narrow band system from RD Racing served me very well. Dam was it accurate and quick. Was somewhat tricky at first with a carb, but once the tune in the zone where the gauge operated, it worked very well. I used it to dial in the MIk48 on the Taj-Man-Motor. After a few months of street tuning I thought the tune was close enough to take to a pro for a dyno tune. The guys in the speed shop at Ray Price Harley know a thing or two about tuning big engines with carbs. They could not find one extra calorie of power by changing the tune in the Mik48, but they were very helpful at building a custom ignition map. They were amazed at how perfect the carb was set up and remarked how they NEVER see bikes that were street tuned come in that close.
Bottom line, that RB Racing narrow band AFR gauge is a great tool that works very well, but it is not for the masses.
The wide band from AEM works really well too .
They all work well. Regardless of brand on the box. Approaching TC lifter thread status.
There is no reason to install AFR unless you are modifing the engine, then you need a wide band .
A narrow band sensor will "work" in the internet sense.
But a narrow band sensor is only accurate at 14.7, and they are actually switching type sensors designed to switch rapidly for an unbalanced system.
An unbalanced system works by switching rapidly from rich to lean to maintain an average AFR.
A wide band sensor is accurate from 10:1 to 22:1
Quote from: JW113 on July 01, 2020, 08:27:24 PM
Quote from: thumper 823 on July 01, 2020, 05:42:59 PM
Just say NO to Chinese crap.
It never works very well
This is coming from someone that has never bought a chinese crap CV. I have.
As far as I can tell, they are no different than the original Keihin CV carb. I bought one from Ebay just to check it out. It has functioned identical to any Japanese made CV that I have ever owned. I have one on one of my favorite bikes, and it is functioning perfectly. Anybody that wants to badmouth these carburetors, please put up some evidence that they are not quality. My experience has found they are very good. But, you judge for your self.
-JW
I noticed that these carbs do not have a fitting for the overflow tube. Does this mean that it really isn't necessary? Or would the float bowl cover off of a '96 CV bolt right on allowing use of an overflow tube?
I have a '96 that broke where the air cleaner bolts on.
My 42 does.
Ebay used CV? Or New knock off CV????
I can find used with cruise control bracket, but either may be a gamble.
I am pretty sure the genuine HSR 42 all have an overflow .
There are a LOT of knock off countefits out there and ya gets whats ya paid for.
Quote from: thumper 823 on August 02, 2020, 01:03:24 PM
I am pretty sure the genuine HSR 42 all have an overflow .
There are a LOT of knock off countefits out there and ya gets whats ya paid for.
I was talking about the CV knock offs. But I did find a knock off with the overflow fitting.
But looking at used genuine CV's on Ebay, I found that some of the 2000's and up did not have an overflow fitting.
HD eliminated the overflow/vent tube due to EPA requirements sometime in the mid-90s. The bowl now vents to the front of the air horn. Although it was handy to be able to drain the fuel bowl prior to removing it, not having it there is certainly not a deal breaker.
-JW